[BrotherLarry]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Pastor Ezekiel,

I posted yesterday after this Post, and did not notice your message until later. I am not sure if you fully represent the Landover Baptist Church, but it does not speak well of this forum at least. You certainly are not happy with what I have posted, and I can accept a difference of opinion but I suggest that you are not acting in an appropriate manner.

One simply does NOT doubt the superlative faith and devotion of Ezekiel Flint, good sir. Not only does he represent Landover Baptist Church, he represents CHRIST HIMSELF. There is no truer Christian. There will never be a truer Christian. I pictured the angels in Glory gasping as they read what you spewed onto these venerable pages. No doubt the Archangel Michael was held back by Jesus Himself from trampling on you. (You don't want Michael to trample you!)

If this is what you learn in Ausria, then may I never step foot there. I have put a purple highlight over your name in my prayer list as being one of those least likely to find Salvation(R), but perhaps through the loving and tender ministry of Landover you might still find Christ's forgiveness. I strongly recommend a hot cup of humility and a LOT of time on your knees.

Pastor Ezekiel, I know this is small beans to you, but don't bind him in heaven and earth just yet (Matthew 16:19 Matthew 18:18). Shew mercy unto this vile sinner.

COME, LORD JESUS!
BrotherLarry

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Pastor Ezekiel,

Then by all means move along, demon. It is apparent to anyone with eyes that satan has sent you here to disrupt and sow seeds of doubt. Go and tell your master satan that we have Jesus on our side, and petty debate trolls will not sway us.

Get thee hence!

I posted yesterday after this Post, and did not notice your message until later. I am not sure if you fully represent the Landover Baptist Church, but it does not speak well of this forum at least. You certainly are not happy with what I have posted, and I can accept a difference of opinion but I suggest that you are not acting in an appropriate manner.

I have also now opened my User Control Panel in a failed attempt to change my Avatar. I now find that you have added 14 similar messages against my posts with similar messages. Two of them I would not repeat in public.

My Bible reading this morning was Psalm 11 and it speaks of the opposition that David and Jesus faced, but I was comforted by that reading.

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 11:1-7 (KJV): 1 In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain? 2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart. 3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD’S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. 5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. 6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. 7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings “BrotherLarry” and Greetings again Elmer, and a Message for Alan (to start with),

Message to Alan: I accept the position that you do not like reference books, but could I recommend one to you that may be within your professed position. My involvement with this book is as follows. I purchased a cheap electronic package that had the KJV, Enhanced Strong’s, a few other resources and a book that I had not previously encountered, New Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge, Edited by Jerome H Smith. I had heard of TSK before and it was available with e-Sword. As you seem to be a Baptist, then you may be encouraged that the Editor is a Baptist, but possibly at the other end of the spectrum to you and your position. I liked the main feature of this book, cross-referencing of allusions and quotations from OT to NT and Pentateuch to Prophets and many other useful references. It does have some of his Baptist comments, but you can pick and choose to close your eyes in these parts. He has added figures of speech based on Bullinger’s book also. It is actually a thorough revision of TSK with many additions.

I liked the electronic version, but always prefer a printed copy for browsing so I searched the Internet for a copy and found that a Baptist bookstore near the Baptist Seminary in Sydney was advertising availability. I emailed, and he said he was out of stock but would seek a copy. I asked if I could pay by cheque, and he said it was OK. What surprised me was that he sent the book on trust and it arrived before I was even aware that he had tracked down a copy.

What was interesting and startling was the author in his preface stated that he nearly did not complete his work, as an assailant attacked him and shot him in the head (O America - Guns, Guts and Glory as per the icons). But instead of hindering his work, he had greater time available while he was recovering and was able to make a more thorough production, and also complete the work.

I only suggest this book because you offered the John 12 reference when I talked about Isaiah 6. This book is an excellent resource to discover more of these links.

Is this how men are in Ausria? As soon as something becomes uncomfortable, it's time to "move on?"

Perhaps it is also the content of your Post that makes me feel uncomfortable. I have certainly encountered some colourful (no pun intended) characters, but I am a bit reticent to use similar methods, ideas and language.

… understand that the burden of proof is yours to demonstrate that it is not directly inspired by the HS.

I would still like you to assess the 'hearing the Word of God' vs. 'meticulous dissection of each morpheme' especially based on some pivotal verses.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I do not intend to challenge you any further on this subject. I certainly endorse the need to hear the word of God, so that faith may develop and grow. My original aim in joining is stated in my opening Post, but the door seems to be at present shut I will be content to discuss any item in this vein.

My main aim in joining is to discuss the Bible and the Gospel of Christ. I hope to learn by interaction with other believers. I have a special interest in various books of the Bible, such as Psalms, Isaiah and Galatians and if I see any discussion on these I would at least read and possibly discuss what is on this thread.

Kind regards
Trevor


Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Elmer,
I cannot agree with your claim here, and the few details that I have stated are proof enough to me that the KJV has errors even though it is an excellent translation, and it is my preferred translation. I am not interested in discussing KJV only concepts any further. If this is one of the forums essential criteria then I need to move on.

Kind regards
Trevor

Then by all means move along, demon. It is apparent to anyone with eyes that satan has sent you here to disrupt and sow seeds of doubt. Go and tell your master satan that we have Jesus on our side, and petty debate trolls will not sway us.

Get thee hence!

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Elmer,
I cannot agree with your claim here, and the few details that I have stated are proof enough to me that the KJV has errors even though it is an excellent translation, and it is my preferred translation. I am not interested in discussing KJV only concepts any further. If this is one of the forums essential criteria then I need to move on.

Kind regards
Trevor


Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

Dearest Trevor,

I certainly hope you take your time to ponder the many facets of Faith that we offer on this Godly Discussion Forum and refrain from making hasty retreats based on ad misericordiam arguments. As you can see, many people have challenged the KJV only doctrine that we do find to be the correct one but please, understand that the burden of proof is yours to demonstrate that it is not directly inspired by the HS.

I would still like you to assess the 'hearing the Word of God' vs. 'meticulous dissection of each morpheme' especially based on some pivotal verses.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[BrotherLarry]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Elmer,
I cannot agree with your claim here, and the few details that I have stated are proof enough to me that the KJV has errors even though it is an excellent translation, and it is my preferred translation. I am not interested in discussing KJV only concepts any further. If this is one of the forums essential criteria then I need to move on.

Kind regards
Trevor


Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

Oh, Trevor, Trevor, Trevor!

Is this how men are in Ausria? As soon as something becomes uncomfortable, it's time to "move on?" I did not quite catch your age, but I assumed that at least your orbs of sperm production might have long since fallen into the ugly sack from which soldiers of Christ spew forth (sorry, Ladies, for the visual). Apparently, I was wrong.

I am not known here for my eloquentations, but I am known for being a staunchwart and solidified believer in all that is Holy and Christ-like. What is so difficult about accepting the KJV as perfect and inspired by the Holy Ghost? Is not God perfect? Did not God's Holy Ghost breathe into the men of yore and move them to ejaculate the very words we read, over a hundred years later? Oh, how good is our GOD! How sweet His manna, how supple His nail-pierced hands!

I will not argue with you, sir, because there is no argument when it comes to the infallible WORD OF GOD. If the Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it! I have added you to my prayer list, and I will use an anointed prayer cloth as a point of contact between me and thee, believing that CHRIST will save your soul, knave that you are, and further believing that our GOD will bring you to the knowledge of His Perfect Will for your life. Do not hesitate! Jesus said that He would return quickly, and it's only been 2000 years, give or take! It could be today! It could be this very moment! It could be before I end this message to you! OH, LORD, GOD, SEND YOUR SON NOW!

COME, LORD JESUS!
BrotherLarry

PS: Do not ignore the counsel of our beloved Pastor Ezekiel. You DO realize that in Heaven, Zeke's condo is in direct line of sight of the throne of GOD? (In fact, less than 40 feet away). You better recognize.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Elmer,

"we feel that KJV is not actually a "translation" but a text transmitted by the Holy Spirit?

I cannot agree with your claim here, and the few details that I have stated are proof enough to me that the KJV has errors even though it is an excellent translation, and it is my preferred translation. I am not interested in discussing KJV only concepts any further. If this is one of the forums essential criteria then I need to move on.

Kind regards
Trevor


Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia



Dear Trevor,

As I have stated, I am familiar with your position and find it very attractive albeit perilous. I'd highly appreciate if you considered also the following questions in addition to assessing the exegetical position of literacy/illiteracy applied to your fascination with the dissection of words.

Why should that be done among fellow believers is beyond me. Are you trying to make us believe the Bible is True™? Are you attempting to offer us alternative texts while we feel that KJV is not actually a "translation" but a text transmitted by the Holy Spirit? Or are you trying to rationalize Faith to yourself? I ask you to search for your motivation. What are you trying to convert us to actually?

...

How would this change the message for the congregation listening to the World of God spoken? Would a "translation" different from the KJV gain more souls to the Lord?

I am not saying that you avoid answering these questions. I am suggesting that you should reflect yourself if you are avoiding them.

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Alan and Elmer,

The Bible warns against this sort of behavior.
Second Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.

There was certainly a falling away from Apostolic teaching and practice from the 1st Century onwards. You want me to accept what you say, but will not allow me to listen to others who I have learnt to trust for over 50 years.

So you're saying these commentators you like so much know better than Jesus, who used the present tense.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

My understanding of Exodus 3:14 was developed within my fellowship, mainly by personal discussion. The KJV translators used the present tense for Exodus 3:14, contrary to Tyndale’s translation, possibly because they thought Jesus was quoting Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58.

John 8:58 is part of a series of “I am” passages, but the KJV usually translates these as “I am he”. The following are in the immediate context of John 8:58:
John 8:23-28 (KJV): 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The KJV has added the “he” here as they did not believe Jesus was quoting Exodus 3:14. He speaks of his Divine origin as the Son of God v23, and that he was the Son of Man v28 and his absolute dependence upon God His Father, “I do nothing of myself”. So as a KJV only advocate you have to accept the “he” in these verses. Also you rely also on your “Spirit” guidance, and I suspect that what you stated so affirmatively may not be the “Spirit” speaking, but because you have always heard it said and accepted that John 8:58 is quoting Exodus 3:14.

And if we allowed research to determine our reading of the Bible, we would have to take a lot of parts out and translate a lot of verses differently - and we'd still be unsure about the meaning of some parts. Then I suppose we'd have to reject creationism and a lot of stories in the Bible that purport to be historical events. If you're commentators haven't done this, then they're being very selective in their research. I find it's best just to reject all research.

All that I can say is that is that you seem to be oblivious to some of the genuine help that others can give us. I will state again, I believe the entire Bible is inspired and infallible.

How can you live with all this uncertainty over what God's word really means? You do know He promised to preserve it forever, don't you?

Psalm 12:6-7: 6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Although I suppose a bit of uncertainty allows you to read into it what you want.

I read in the morning from an Interlinear RV/KJV, but use the KJV in our meetings. Comparison with the RV is not uncertainty but a benefit. So please give me your understanding of “Neginoth”. My brief research suggests that in Habakkuk 3:19 it is translated correctly. Please note that the word “them” Psalm 12:7 is actually the Hebrew word “him”, and you are misreading God’s spoken and written word based on the error of the KJV here – please check. But yes, God has preserved His Word and is readily available in many translations. My son in law prefers to read the OT using his Hebrew Bible.

Hence my fears. You are not there yet but the symptoms are clear.

Possibly some of the things that I have said to Alan may explain my position. I have already stated that my main interests have been Galatians, Psalms and Isaiah. I have also stated that I believe the Gospel of Christ. You suggest that I am side-tracked from the main issues by minor considerations, but that is not the case. I consider our Sunday morning meeting where we remember our Lord’s death and resurrection, our Sunday evening where we have a discussion on the Bible and our Wednesday Bible Class where we have an exposition usually on a chapter as well balanced. I have considered Psalm 8 in detail, and enjoy the NT application. I also consider Thirtle’s suggestion of Muth-labben attached to Psalm 8 beneficial, and I like Bullinger’s book on Figures of Speech.

Kind regards
Trevor


Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Not sure if you are stating that the KJV 1611 settles the matter. Are you suggesting that because the individual translators (and the group(s) as a whole) of the KJV decided on the present tense, that then this overrides any research and any contrary conclusion.

No, in fact, I'm referring to the way this discussion is beginning to make the Word of God a sideshow and the main attraction will be (imperfect aspect with future connotations) something that is, in fact, quite alien to the Bible.

Let us examine the whole issue of concentrating on translation within the framework of commentaries and exegetics. In we take that as our guideline, it is clear that you're forgetting the most important aspect of the Bible.

It is (within this context) spoken word that has been written down. Its very nature it its Hebrew and Koine forms is to be spoken and understood as spoken. You might want to refer to the Epistles, but also their context is one of the ancient world with illiteracy being the norm. Paul dictated his Epistles under the influence of the Holy Spirit to a scribe (with the exception of, e.g., Galatians 6:11) and these letters were read aloud to congregations. It is the same with the OT, spoken work, read aloud by those few who could read to those who could not, who still wanted to worship and be educated in the Will of God.

Picture this: you're hearing the word of God aloud. Do you really have time to meticulously consider the alternative readings and vowels of Hebrew, the sigma aorist of Koine OR the different versions in American. No, you don't. What about the pastor, the scholar? Is it really crucial that they spend decades pondering the tense of one verb when all they would have to do is to listen to the loud whisper of the Holy Spirit? No. God can make the message unambiguous enough to be transmitted as the spoken word.

Exodus 6:2
And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:

That said, I must say that you have my sympathies. I can relate to your urge to dwell on each prefix and pi'el. It is so much fun and so stimulating to look at the Hebrew letters and concentrate on a single word and its 3-consonant root and possible alternative vocalizations and the possible translations of all these alternatives and to immerse oneself into koine and find the few glorious optatives of the NT and then compare the LXX to the Masoretic and take into account the possibility that it reflects an older tradition etc.

etc.

etc.

etc.

I can even still accept it when it comes to explaining the reliability of the Bible to an unbeliever, to have him see that Faith reveals also the rationality of the text while it also uncovers the world beyond logic that is Jesus.

Why should that be done among fellow believers is beyond me. Are you trying to make us believe the Bible is True™ (we know it is)? Are you attempting to offer us alternative texts while we feel that KJV is not actually a "translation" but a text transmitted by the Holy Spirit (it is)? Or are you trying to rationalize Faith to yourself (this one I cannot answer)? I ask you to search for your motivation. What are you trying to convert us to actually?

Because it is the spoken word. No time to do spiritual self-abuse on each and every word. It is the stream of these words and morphemes that transmits the message. Fear God, and keep His commandments (Ecclesiastes 12:13): for this is the whole duty of man.

That can be forgotten when we get into things like this:

I read this morning the word Neginoth and seeing you are familiar with Hebrew you may be able to consider the following:
Psalm 6:1 (KJV): To the chief Musician on Neginoth upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.
1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.
Habakkuk 3:19 (KJV): 19 The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds’ feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.
The KJV renders the same Hebrew word as “Neginoth” in Psalm 6:1, while in Habakkuk 3:19 it is rendered as “stringed instruments”. Does this indicate that the scholar who prepared Psalm 6:1 had a different perspective that the scholar that prepared Habakkuk 3:19.

The RV translates Psalm 6:1 as “stringed instruments”. It is also interesting that JW Thirtle suggests that this portion of the Psalm should be printed as the sub-title to Psalm 5, based in part this pattern is shown in the Habakkuk “psalm”. Ethelbert W Bullinger in his Companion Bible prints the KJV with this as a sub-title.

Kind regards
Trevor

Of course we could discuss נְגִינַת or נְגִינָה or the plural with the preposition בִּנְגִינוֺת. We could see its consonantal root נָגַן "play music". I would actually enjoy that. It would be interesting and fun!

How would this change the message for the congregation listening to the World of God spoken? Would a "translation" different from the KJV gain more souls to the Lord? I suggest that you make a Creation Science study on this.

It can be done as follows:

Assign randomly a KJV group of heathens and atheists and a group for each of RV, Thirtle and Bullinger. Sample power testing would yield you probably a group size of 36-10/group. That many atheists can be found relatively easily. Make a pre-exposure questionnaire of their Faith and repeat that after exposure. Make a sham group that are read something they think is from a Bible but is not. Any part of the Apocrypha will probably do. Make a negative control that are read "The Ancestors Tale" by Dawkins (this might pose some ethical problems as it could actually be quite effective to strengthen the unbelief of the atheists).

Report the results in a repeatable manner. Then let us consider if THIS PART of the KJV Bible would yield better cost-benefit results when it comes to the Mission we share: Teach the unbelievers what the Word of God is all about.

Yes, I do admit your approach is most seductive. It is mind-blowingly interesting. It can consume your whole being, but it is Jesus who should be doing that.

Hence my fears. You are not there yet but the symptoms are clear.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

I apologise for my lack of Latin as I suppose it is. Sometimes I can guess, but not this time. I do agree that it is the quality that is important. If we are selective, then we will keep company with those we gain spiritual help. Same with any written material, we should choose carefully both author and even then be careful in endorsing or swallowing all that he has written.

The Bible warns against this sort of behavior.

Second Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.

Not sure if you are stating that the KJV 1611 settles the matter. Are you suggesting that because the individual translators (and the group(s) as a whole) of the KJV decided on the present tense, that then this overrides any research and any contrary conclusion.

So you're saying these commentators you like so much know better than Jesus, who used the present tense.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And if we allowed research to determine our reading of the Bible, we would have to take a lot of parts out and translate a lot of verses differently - and we'd still be unsure about the meaning of some parts. Then I suppose we'd have to reject creationism and a lot of stories in the Bible that purport to be historical events. If you're commentators haven't done this, then they're being very selective in their research. I find it's best just to reject all research.

I read this morning the word Neginoth and seeing you are familiar with Hebrew you may be able to consider the following ...
The KJV renders the same Hebrew word as “Neginoth” in Psalm 6:1, while in Habakkuk 3:19 it is rendered as “stringed instruments”. Does this indicate that the scholar who prepared Psalm 6:1 had a different perspective that the scholar that prepared Habakkuk 3:19.

The RV translates Psalm 6:1 as “stringed instruments”. It is also interesting that JW Thirtle suggests that this portion of the Psalm should be printed as the sub-title to Psalm 5, based in part this pattern is shown in the Habakkuk “psalm”. Ethelbert W Bullinger in his Companion Bible prints the KJV with this as a sub-title.

How can you live with all this uncertainty over what God's word really means? You do know He promised to preserve it forever, don't you?

Psalm 12:6-7: 6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Although I suppose a bit of uncertainty allows you to read into it what you want.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Elmer,

This is exactly what I have been referring to. The commentaries become authorities based on the ad verecundiam characterization of the author. The conclusions match out own, so they have to be correct? The danger of confirmation bias is strong in this one. The author has published a lot? No doubt, but the actual content determines the quality and not the amount of text.

I apologise for my lack of Latin as I suppose it is. Sometimes I can guess, but not this time. I do agree that it is the quality that is important. If we are selective, then we will keep company with those we gain spiritual help. Same with any written material, we should choose carefully both author and even then be careful in endorsing or swallowing all that he has written.

Now let us assess אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה. Imperfect form, but the term is not one of tense but of aspect. Something ongoing, not finished. Why not the future tense then? Because it neglects the timelessness of this aspect. If we had a way of saying I am being that I am being we might consider that? We can discuss these for ages and gradually lose the actual message.

Yes I agree that it is something ongoing and not finished. What was to be accomplished was the deliverance of the children of Israel out of Egypt. The future tense or the future thing to be accomplished is shown in Exodus 6:1-8. The future tense is also confirmed in the immediate context in Exodus 3:12, where even the KJV translates as “I will be”. The result of God’s action which were future when the Angel spoke to Moses is seen in Exodus 15:3, when God has become their salvation:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and [u]I will be to you a God[u]: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

Exodus 15:1-4 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. 4 Pharaoh’s chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

: Do not negotiate with God. He decides.

Not sure if you are stating that the KJV 1611 settles the matter. Are you suggesting that because the individual translators (and the group(s) as a whole) of the KJV decided on the present tense, that then this overrides any research and any contrary conclusion.

I read this morning the word Neginoth and seeing you are familiar with Hebrew you may be able to consider the following:
Psalm 6:1 (KJV): To the chief Musician on Neginoth upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.
1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.
Habakkuk 3:19 (KJV): 19 The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds’ feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.
The KJV renders the same Hebrew word as “Neginoth” in Psalm 6:1, while in Habakkuk 3:19 it is rendered as “stringed instruments”. Does this indicate that the scholar who prepared Psalm 6:1 had a different perspective that the scholar that prepared Habakkuk 3:19.

The RV translates Psalm 6:1 as “stringed instruments”. It is also interesting that JW Thirtle suggests that this portion of the Psalm should be printed as the sub-title to Psalm 5, based in part this pattern is shown in the Habakkuk “psalm”. Ethelbert W Bullinger in his Companion Bible prints the KJV with this as a sub-title.

Kind regards
Trevor


Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Elmer,


In response to Elmer: I appreciate your assessment represented by Fear1 and Fear 2. Looking at Fear1:
I do have access to many resources and I attempt to use them carefully and sparingly. My position in our meeting is that I am the librarian and as a result I have become aware of the many books that are available and new books that continue to become available. Most of the books that I purchase for this library, books for individual purchase and others for the borrowing library, are those recommended by respected brethren in my fellowship who have spent their lives in study and dedication to God.

...commentary matched his own conclusions, and helped clarify many other aspects. I have matched that experience by my own study and then confirming much but not all with this commentary. But also I have gained much more detail and many more insights by also considering this commentary. This commentary was written by one of our magazine editors and in his day was a well-received speaker and expositor. He has published a number of books, mainly individual commentaries on a book of the Bible...

...by those who I assess have lived a life of dedication and study and exposition. This is the method that our senior brother encouraged. So my assessment is that your comments in the rest of Fear 1 are interesting, but not really applicable to my position...

...Exodus 3:14.” – please explain.

Seeing you appear to be an educated man and well-read, I cannot resist asking again concerning Exodus 3:14 seeing you have raised it again. What do you think about Tyndale’s translation of Exodus 3:14, especially the use of the future tense.
Kind regards
Trevor

Dear Trevor,

This is exactly what I have been referring to. The commentaries become authorities based on the ad verecundiam characterization of the author. The conclusions match out own, so they have to be correct? The danger of confirmation bias is strong in this one. The author has published a lot? No doubt, but the actual content determines the quality and not the amount of text.

You are even seducing my vanity. I do not mind being called well-educated but my credentials are also irrelevant. It is the content that decides.

I've been seeing these things. I used to love reading systemathic theology. I enjoyed the debate on Luther's vs. Melancthon's choice of words. Is the act of Salvation donum or favor? Thousands of pages on that one and the principal effect is the alienation from the actual Scripture, the thing that the common sinner needs.

Now let us assess אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה. Imperfect form, but the term is not one of tense but of aspect. Something ongoing, not finished. Why not the future tense then? Because it neglects the timelessness of this aspect. If we had a way of saying I am being that I am being we might consider that? We can discuss these for ages and gradually lose the actual message: Do not negotiate with God. He decides.

John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Didymus Much]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

...Do you agree with his translation on this, or the KJV1611 use of Church...

Ima take a flyer and guess they'll agree with the KJV. Because they always agree with the KJV. It's what they do.

Any connotations you wish to attach to any given word are your problem to deal with, not theirs to explain to your satisfaction.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Elmer,

Before I respond to you, I need to acknowledge that I have now read the thread “Noobs please read this before posting”. The reason why I state this is that I received on Infraction Notice from one of the Moderators, who I have abbreviated as “Mary E” stating

You have received an infraction at The Landover Baptist Church Forum.
Reason: Bearing false witness against God's favorite church

The infraction was stated to be because of my Post #67. In this Post I mainly commented on 2 Peter 1:20-21 and Psalm 38:5, or rather I commented on the Administrator’s use of 2 Peter 1:20 and Psalm 38:5. Possibly I misinterpreted or wrongly assessed why the Administrator(s) added these verses to my Posts.

In response to Elmer: I appreciate your assessment represented by Fear1 and Fear 2. Looking at Fear1:

Many of the fears I expressed earlier in this thread have come into fruitition.

You are very well educated in Bublical commentary.

I do have access to many resources and I attempt to use them carefully and sparingly. My position in our meeting is that I am the librarian and as a result I have become aware of the many books that are available and new books that continue to become available. Most of the books that I purchase for this library, books for individual purchase and others for the borrowing library, are those recommended by respected brethren in my fellowship who have spent their lives in study and dedication to God.

My initial interest in Biblical Commentary arose out of a series of Young People classes that a senior brother conducted or rather guided on the subject of Galatians. For each class he appointed a young brother to speak on a portion of Galatians and helped the young brother in some aspects of the preparation, but also during the presentation helped by discussing the subject when in progress. One piece of advice that has stuck is that he stressed that many of the claims of the Judaisers are not stated. But we can assess their claims and attacks against Paul and against his Apostleship and teaching, by what Paul in effect replies and defends. As young brethren, we felt a part of the class and became very involved in trying to understand the subject and for my part I was able to take thorough notes and after each class consolidated these notes with personal study and meditation. Near the end of the series the senior brother recommended a small commentary on Galatians and stated that he had found this commentary difficult at first. Then he did his own personal study on Galatians, and at the end he read again the commentary and found that most of the explanations in the commentary matched his own conclusions, and helped clarify many other aspects. I have matched that experience by my own study and then confirming much but not all with this commentary. But also I have gained much more detail and many more insights by also considering this commentary. This commentary was written by one of our magazine editors and in his day was a well-received speaker and expositor. He has published a number of books, mainly individual commentaries on a book of the Bible.

As a result of my interest in books, apart from the meeting’s library, I have accumulated a much larger personal library, including electronic resources. I prefer to use personal Bible study and meditation first, trying to understand what the Bible says and only then using such resources that help in the meaning and range of each word, and only then, after this process, possibly looking at a commentary. My preferred commentaries are not those commercially available, but by those who I assess have lived a life of dedication and study and exposition. This is the method that our senior brother encouraged. So my assessment is that your comments in the rest of Fear 1 are interesting, but not really applicable to my position

My brief encounter with this forum is that some do not use even word reference books, and almost seem to suggest that reading the KJV1611 is all sufficient, and then stating their immediate impression of what this says. Also I gain the impression that possibly the Landover Baptist Church claim that they are guardians of “the Pure Message™ of Christ as mediated by our Church.” I have not been given or researched the full implications of this claim, but you stated that I have rejected this, so I assume that part of my Posts conflicts this position.

Considering Fear 2:

Revelations as spiritual struggle, comdemnation of unbelievers (John 3:18) as an invitation, as human love instead of the Love of God in Exodus 3:14.

I find this statement obscure and much of the rest of your Post is similar. I hold all of the Scriptures as reliable. “Revelations as spiritual struggle” – please explain. “comdemnation of unbelievers (John 3:18) as an invitation” – please explain. “as human love instead of the Love of God in Exodus 3:14.” – please explain.

Seeing you appear to be an educated man and well-read, I cannot resist asking again concerning Exodus 3:14 seeing you have raised it again. What do you think about Tyndale’s translation of Exodus 3:14, especially the use of the future tense. A use of Englishman’s and other references seem to confirm that the future tense is correct here. The future tense is also given in the margins of the RV and RSV.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Also while on the subject of Tyndale. He was persecuted and killed by the Church, and in his translation and possibly in the Geneva Bible as well, he used the word congregation and not Church. Do you agree with his translation on this, or the KJV1611 use of Church, which in the context of the times, especially those persecuted, possibly meant the established Church of England, or Church of Rome, including their buildings.

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.