I'm Confused!

[ImConfused]

Hi. I should start off by saying that I'm not an atheist, so you don't have to worry about that. I believe in God. The thing is though, I'm what you could call religiously confused. I don't know what to believe! Sure, I take the existence of God as a given, but I don't know if he's the god of the bible. In fact, I'm not entirely sure if there's only one god. Could be multiple. Who knows? All I know is that the universe is here, and somebody had to create it. So, I guess what I want to know is what makes you folks here at Landover so certain that God is the god of the bible? How are you sure that he isn't the muslim god or some hindu elephant god or some such sort of thing? I would be delighted if you could clear up my confusion!

[refridgerator]

Re: I'm Confused!

Hi. I should start off by saying that I'm not an atheist, so you don't have to worry about that. I believe in God. The thing is though, I'm what you could call religiously confused. I don't know what to believe! Sure, I take the existence of God as a given, but I don't know if he's the god of the bible. In fact, I'm not entirely sure if there's only one god. Could be multiple. Who knows? All I know is that the universe is here, and somebody had to create it. So, I guess what I want to know is what makes you folks here at Landover so certain that God is the god of the bible? How are you sure that he isn't the muslim god or some hindu elephant god or some such sort of thing? I would be delighted if you could clear up my confusion!

Why someone is needed to create the universe? It is completely possible that was not created at all, that always existed.

Now think a bit, what is created? nothing, everything is trasformated.

I expect this will clarify your confussion.

[Didymus Much]

Re: I'm Confused!

...Sure, I take the existence of God as a given...

Why?

...All I know is that the universe is here, and somebody had to create it...

That just leads back to "who created the creator?".

...How are you sure that he isn't the muslim god...

Same god.

While you're out reading up on Abrahamic religions, take a bit to learn the difference between faith and proof, and how if you have one, there's no need for the other.

[James Hutchins]

Re: I'm Confused!

Hi. I should start off by saying that I'm not an atheist, so you don't have to worry about that. I believe in God. The thing is though, I'm what you could call religiously confused. I don't know what to believe! Sure, I take the existence of God as a given, but I don't know if he's the god of the bible. In fact, I'm not entirely sure if there's only one god. Could be multiple. Who knows? All I know is that the universe is here, and somebody had to create it. So, I guess what I want to know is what makes you folks here at Landover so certain that God is the god of the bible? How are you sure that he isn't the muslim god or some hindu elephant god or some such sort of thing? I would be delighted if you could clear up my confusion!

Have you read and committed to memory the KJV Bible? Have you given yourself to Jesus and proved it by providing for the Landover Church? You know, if you suffer for Jesus, He will reward you when you finally get to die and go to Heaven with an eternity of slendor. A small price to pay for 90 years of misery on Earth.
There is only one God as described in the Holy Bible.
Revelation 1:14


11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Now, does that sound like some sand nigra or dot head?

[ImConfused]

Re: I'm Confused!

Why?

Ah, I do suppose I ought to elaborate on that. I must say though, I never thought I would have to defend the existence of a god here, of all places. Well, here is my view. It can be observed that all nations have laws. These laws all had to be written by someone; they didn't just pop into existence on their own. The same it is with the laws of nature, like gravity, electromagnetism, and etc. If a god didn't write those laws, then who did? Plus, as I've mentioned, the universe has to have been created by somebody, as there are no uncaused causes.

That just leads back to "who created the creator?".

And yes, you are correct in saying that this does lead to that question. I propose that this god perhaps dwells in an overarching universe, which was created in turn by another god. And that other god in turn was created by another, and so on and so forth, in an infinite chain, such that everything is created by something else. This neatly solves that problem, and I believe is a superior explanation to the one commonly accepted, that the universe magically poofed into existence. That explanation violates the obvious observation that there is no uncaused cause, whereas my explanation does not.

Same god.

That is a matter of opinion. I hardly think any Christians would say that the Islamic God is the same as the Christian one.

Now, does that sound like some sand nigra or dot head?

Indeed, that does not. But how do you know that the bible is infact the word of God?

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: I'm Confused!

all nations have laws

No they don't.

[ImConfused]

Re: I'm Confused!

No they don't.

Care to give an example?

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: I'm Confused!

But how do you know that the bible is infact the word of God?

Have you even read the Bible(KJV1611)?

2nd Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

The answer is right in front of you if you care to look.

YIC

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: I'm Confused!

And yes, you are correct in saying that this does lead to that question. I propose that this god perhaps dwells in an overarching universe, which was created in turn by another god. And that other god in turn was created by another, and so on and so forth, in an infinite chain, such that everything is created by something else. This neatly solves that problem, and I believe is a superior explanation to the one commonly accepted, that the universe magically poofed into existence. That explanation violates the obvious observation that there is no uncaused cause, whereas my explanation does not.

Nothing created God. He created Himself. And before you cry 'special pleading' it doesn't apply to God because He create Himself.

Otherwise what would stop it from being 'turtles all the way down'?

YIC

[Didymus Much]

Re: I'm Confused!

...I must say though, I never thought I would have to defend the existence of a god here, of all places...

I'm not asking you to defend the existence of God (impossible task), I'm asking you to defend your belief that God exists. You must base it on something more than your ignorance of science.

...If a god didn't write those laws, then who did?...

Ah, you're just looking for someone to blame this whole mess on.

...an infinite chain, such that everything is created by something else. This neatly solves that problem...

No, it doesn't. It just relies on the questioner losing track of what they asked in the first place.

As an aside, if you're looking for work, there should be several Senate vacancies available at the next cycle. Your talent for obfuscation may yet be well rewarded. As a plus, you may have the chance to be applauded as a brave hero for condemning millions of your fellow citizens to needless suffering and premature death (don't worry, it'll just be the poors that lose).

...That is a matter of opinion. I hardly think any Christians would say that the Islamic God is the same as the Christian one...

Like I suggested earlier, go read up on Abrahamic religions if you want to argue about what they believe.

...Indeed, that does not. But how do you know that the bible is infact the word of God?

Faith. That's all that God asks for in the Bible (you really should read the blessed thing).

Think about it. If there was proof, he would know (one way or the other), and faith (being: belief, in the absence of proof) is then useless, pointless, and contradictory.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: I'm Confused!

Care to give an example?

1. Huaorani

[ImConfused]

Re: I'm Confused!

Have you even read the Bible(KJV1611)?

2nd Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

The answer is right in front of you if you care to look.

YIC

I am aware of the fact that the bible does say that it is the word of God. But how can you be sure that parts or all of it weren't fabricated? It could be that someone wrote down his own words, claiming them to be the words of God. How can you discount that possibility without recourse to the bible itself?

Nothing created God. He created Himself. And before you cry 'special pleading' it doesn't apply to God because He create Himself.

Otherwise what would stop it from being 'turtles all the way down'?

I'm not entirely sure how something can create itself. How can something that doesn't exist yet create anything? Also, I don't see what's wrong with having "turtles all the way down". If there is no uncaused cause, then it must be the case that this is true.

I'm not asking you to defend the existence of God (impossible task), I'm asking you to defend your belief that God exists. You must base it on something more than your ignorance of science.

I'm not exactly sure where you get the idea that I'm ignorant of science. Though I'm no scientist, I have general knowledge of basic scientific theories. Anyways, you're asking me to defend my belief in God, and though I think I've already done so relatively adequately, I shall proceed to elaborate upon that defence. Since you have complained that it is based on my apparent (in your opinion) ignorance of science, I will base it on logic.

So, the thing I am trying to prove here is that God exists.

My propositions:

(1) There is no uncaused cause.
(2) Laws require an intelligence to be written.
(3) Natural law is an integral part of the universe.

These three propositions, in my opinion, are obvious. So, given that those propositions are true, here is what logically follows:

The universe must have a cause, since according to (1), there is no uncaused cause. What then is the cause of it? Well, the universe is governed by natural law, and according to (2), those laws must have been written by some intelligence. Because of (3) and (2), the cause of the universe must have been intelligent. This intelligence is what we can call God.

QED

If you believe that my argument is flawed, then I eagerly await your rebuttal. Hopefully you won't accuse me of obfuscation this time, as my argument seems quite clear.

Think about it. If there was proof, he would know (one way or the other), and faith (being: belief, in the absence of proof) is then useless, pointless, and contradictory.

To the contrary, it is not contradictory at all. The definition of faith is "complete trust or confidence in someone or something". If you know something to be true, then you have trust and confidence in it, and thus you have faith in it.

Huaorani

I meant nations in the sense of countries rather than in the sense of tribes. In the sense that I meant my observation holds. Nevertheless, this does not actually have any bearing on my argument.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: I'm Confused!

I am aware of the fact that the bible does say that it is the word of God. But how can you be sure that parts or all of it weren't fabricated? It could be that someone wrote down his own words, claiming them to be the words of God. How can you discount that possibility without recourse to the bible itself?

Many reasons! Please let me list here the most obvious ones, as you (see below) are the one who thrives in obvious, experiential thinking patterns!

1. Eyewitness testimony. There are the words of those people who actually lived and witnessed the events during Biblical times. Furthermore, lots of archaeological evidence supports the Bible. For instance, there are descriptions of cities that have been confirmed with archaeology. See also Genesis 10:11.
2. There is the testimony of us True Christians™. Our lives have been changed and these wonderful, awesome changes are consistent with the Bible! See also Luke 1:47.
3. Look at the prophecies in the Bible. They have been fulfilled! Daniel Chapter 2 predicted the Roman empire and much more. For reference, see Daniel 2:34.
4. There is the unique and miraculously consistent nature of manuscripts of the Bible during a time when there was only illiteracy, unreliable greedy scribes and slow methods of communication. See also Psalms 12:6.

I'm not entirely sure how something can create itself. How can something that doesn't exist yet create anything? Also, I don't see what's wrong with having "turtles all the way down". If there is no uncaused cause, then it must be the case that this is true.

I'm not exactly sure where you get the idea that I'm ignorant of science. Though I'm no scientist, I have general knowledge of basic scientific theories. Anyways, you're asking me to defend my belief in God, and though I think I've already done so relatively adequately, I shall proceed to elaborate upon that defence. Since you have complained that it is based on my apparent (in your opinion) ignorance of science, I will base it on logic.

So, the thing I am trying to prove here is that God exists.

My propositions:

(1) There is no uncaused cause.
(2) Laws require an intelligence to be written.
(3) Natural law is an integral part of the universe.

These three propositions, in my opinion, are obvious. So, given that those propositions are true, here is what logically follows:

The universe must have a cause, since according to (1), there is no uncaused cause. What then is the cause of it? Well, the universe is governed by natural law, and according to (2), those laws must have been written by some intelligence. Because of (3) and (2), the cause of the universe must have been intelligent. This intelligence is what we can call God.

QED

If you believe that my argument is flawed, then I eagerly await your rebuttal. Hopefully you won't accuse me of obfuscation this time, as my argument seems quite clear.

The rebuttal

You're recycling some old Catholic arguments (Tomism). The "uncaused cause". As both us (the True Christians™ based on Genesis 1:1) and secular scientists (based on the biggest banging ever) know that the Universe had a beginning does not mean from the secular viewpoint that it has a cause. This is the danger of plunging into a debate with the atheist swarm, such as Mr. Much. They have found no way to dismiss the Bible when it is discussed in the context of it having already been accepted as an Authority (as we do). However, when you start to do cosmology with them, you are lost.

Please, let me elaborate.

First, your argument is based on personal testimony and not evidence. You refer to your own fallible mind. You're not sure, you think, in your opinion, you don't see... These are anecdotes, not evidence, not unbiased observations. For the secular scientists, they can be used as hypotheses is an adequate number of people make the same observation or present the idea. As it happens, an adequate number of people have made these assertions so they've been examined.

First, you claim that your propositions are true because they are "obvious". This is, again, just personal testimony and also a fallacy, an appeal to reason. Unreasonable things can still be true (1 Corinthians 1:18). If the claim of uncaused cause fails, so does your whole string of proof. In fact, there are multiple other hypotheses in addition to the first "uncaused cause".

• Two equal causes.
• Multiple causes.
• There are phenomena, such as radioactive decay, that can only be described in probabilities but not direct causality as to when and which radioactive nucleus will decay.

However, the strongest objection to your claim comes from Jocaxian nothingness. If nothing (the void - they got that much right, the secularists; Genesis 1:2) preceded something, then the "nothing" was also without rules. By placing there a rule (the most common is "something cannot come out of nothing" but your claim "there must be a first cause" is a close second), the "nothingness" is no longer a void. Essentially, your proposition violates the state of things before there was something. The Jocaxian nothingness has no rules, nor requirements. Thus, it requires no rule of the "first cause".

Of course, there are also other issues. One is that causality being a factor in the Universe does not automatically mean that the same rule should apply to things that are not parts of the Universe. There is also the possibility that there was a first cause but that is died out. There is the infinite regress. There is circular causality. You have chosen one lame apologetic view and neglected the basic rule of logic and science - to seek for data that contradicts your preconceptions, not only data that support them.

The only escape from this is to understand that all this is delusion. God wants us to concentrate on the Bible and on Bible only. As for myself, every minute I spend away from God's Word is a struggle. I still sometimes remember the lure of the secular explanations but because of Jesus I now know what they are!

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

We could go on with your propositions 2-3, such as your equivocation (a fallacy) of law=natural law, but, as said, the first cause hypothesis is the first stumbling block when it comes to debating secularists, so further steps are not necessary.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: I'm Confused!

I am aware of the fact that the bible does say that it is the word of God. But how can you be sure that parts or all of it weren't fabricated? It could be that someone wrote down his own words, claiming them to be the words of God. How can you discount that possibility without recourse to the bible itself?

God is the most powerful thing in existence. Why would He lie?

You see, the reason many people hate Him and say He would lie to us (His Blood Bought chosen) is because they don't like how True Christians live by a golden moral code that sets us apart from the unSaved™ masses that we are admonished to live apart from.

2 Corinthians 6:14–17 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,"

You see bad people call Jesus a liar for one reason and one reason only.

That's right: anal sex

You see, the homersexualist has to lie through his uneven teeth to lure an eager, clean limbed young youth on the brink of adulthood into his web of anal terror (rape- legitimate).

You see, that's what atheism is all about: a clarion call to abominationalism where youths with the vaguest hint of wispy downy fluff of their golden cheek are turgidly lied to, plied with drugs and ritual defiled to a back drop of the MTVs and the My Spaces and the Nintendos.

So when you ask whether the Bible(KJV1611) is a lie, just think about ritual Satanal abuse of this nation's youth: is that really what you are saying?

Shame on you, young lady!

YIC

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: I'm Confused!

I meant nations in the sense of countries rather than in the sense of tribes. In the sense that I meant my observation holds. Nevertheless, this does not actually have any bearing on my argument.

As we have seen, the Huaorani nation has no laws. That actually destroys your argument. Saying that their status as a nation must conform to your definition is not a way to win souls; how would you feel if one of them turned up and denounced wherever you hail from as not.—.according to their lexicon.—.qualified to call itself a human nation?

Now the papists had attempted to impose catholic laws on them, via Spaniard interference, whether or not they knew anything about it which they probably didn't. That sort of cultural destruction is not something we celebrate today. There are many other lawless nations around, their names often containing words like "Democratic" or "Unity" or "The Former" but I would not recommend visiting any of them. That more-or-less covers your point (2) which brings us to (3).

(3) Natural law is an integral part of the universe.

No it isn't.

If you believe that my argument is flawed, then I eagerly await your rebuttal.

The thing never got up to start with. Not all nations have laws. Simply rejecting nations not having laws as not being nations is fallacious. Perhaps you could let me know which fallacy is involved? It's almost a textbook example so should be fairly easy to identify. As for the universe, well you need to demonstrate that it's regulated by "natural law" and not in a state of chaos. That would be great