Even God has to obey Logic

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Greetings and Salutations.

My background is not of much significance. I am an Anti theist from Europe, if you're very curious. One metaphysical concept I value above all others is logic; I believe it, alongside evidence, is the only way of finding out Truth. I think many people on these forums would agree with that.


I have explored these forums, and in some places have found them lacking logic. I think logic is imperative to all discussion, statements and beliefs, and if you disagree I should like to tackle any misconceptions first.







So, here I present to you The Three Laws of Logic:


The Law of Identity
If a statement is true, it is indeed true.
That is to say, if the statement "God exists" is true, the statement "God exists" is true.
Or, as a formula: P = P


The Law of Non-Contradiction
If a statement is true, it is not false in the same sense, and vice verse.
That is to say, if the statement "God exists" is true, it cannot be false in the same sense. It could be false in another reality or a thought experiment, but not in the same place and time.
Or, as a formula: P ≠ not P


The Law of Excluded Middle
A statement can either be true or false, there is no alternative.
That is to say, the statement "God exists" is either true or false; It cannot be both, neither or something else.
Or as a formula: Either P or not P


Indirectly from these follow several logical fallacies, which, if used in an argument, make the argument fallacious (illogical, invalid). There are too many to list here, so instead I present a link to a somewhat complete list of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies







With that being stated, I hope you will agree that these rules are imperative to all discussion, and that disobeying them leads to anarchy. If you do not, please explain why you reject them.


Next I present the potentially outrageous statement that even God must be subject to these laws. If he wasn't, he would simultaneously exist, not exist, create this world, destroy this world, give this world logical laws, not give this world logical laws. This is the second point that I would like to settle in discussion.


Finally, on this thread I would like to correct one enormous error I have seen in your discussions. I have several times seen a statement similar to "Where in the Bible does is say that the Bible isn't true?". This sort of statement is fallacious as it commits the Circular Reasoning fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning) by using the Bible to confirm the Bible. The argument, broken down, is as follows:


Premise 1: The Bible is fact.
Premise 2: The Bible states that the Bible is fact.
Conclusion: The Bible is fact.


This argument is fallacious, as its first premise relies on its conclusion. Please realise that that doesn't mean that the conclusion is invalid - it just means that this argument is not a valid means of reaching said conclusion. This is the final thing I would like to discuss on this thread.


Beyond that, I want to go and correct the logical fallacies and non-sequetors in other arguments on this forum. I believe that through this, we can all get closer to the Truth, whatever that may be. (About specific topics as well as general ones)



T.L.D.R. (Summary): Logic is important. Some arguments on this forum are not wholly logical. I would like to help correct them.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Next I present the potentially outrageous statement that even God must be subject to these laws. If he wasn't, he would simultaneously exist, not exist, create this world, destroy this world, give this world logical laws, not give this world logical laws. This is the second point that I would like to settle in discussion.</font>

Dear Sinner,

This statement is outrageous because it deals with the Firmament-enclosed Universe, but it does not deal with the fact that God exists both inside and outside this continuum and we have no access to the "outside" and cannot know its laws (but we shall in due course; Revelation 22:20).

Furthermore, all those statements can be true (once again, keeping in mind that God is not restricted to this continuum). Simultaneous occurrences not limited by time are peanuts to God.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

He does Create the world

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And He does destroy it. We experience these happenstances sequentially but for God they are here and now as He knows at this very moment how the Creation took place and at the very same moment how the World will end.

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

He does give us logical laws, as follows:

Leviticus 10:11
And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

He also gives us illogical laws:

Ezekiel 20:25
Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

He exists:

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

And He (as Jesus) has temporarily ceased to exist:

John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Now by your own logic, your claim is false. God can operate outside our logic, as all the things that you considered to be contradictions, are actually realities of our Divine Lord.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

This is not a debate forum and you have said nothing that we have not successfully refuted before. I suggest you use the search function.

We do have certain standards here, one of which can be summarized as "avoid the use of Latin phrases that you cannot spell".


Apart from that,

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

you have said nothing that we have not successfully refuted before

You cannot refute logic. Please, attempt to make a statement that does not use logic to reach its conclusion.

all those statements can be true

But, and this is the important bit, not in the same sense. There is no logical contradiction in saying that God created the world, and will destroy it, as these events happen at different times. There is a logical contradiction in saying that God destroyed the world before creating it or at the same time as creating it. I know you are not claiming He did, but if he is not subject to logic, He most certainly did as there is nothing to stop Him from doing so. Similarly so for your other examples; I'll go into details if you wish.

avoid the use of Latin phrases that you cannot spell

I'm so sorry, what did I misspell?

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

For the sake of clarity, here an the argument for God having to obey logic:

Premise 1: Something not subject to the laws of logic is, and does, everything simultaneously.
Premise 2: The "Everything" that that something could do includes, among other things, binding Himself to the laws of Logic.
Conclusion: Any being not bound by the laws of logic is immediately bound by the laws of logic


The conclusion follows logically from the first two premises. To reject the conclusion, you must reject one of the premises and explain why you have done so.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

There is no logical contradiction in saying that God created the world, and will destroy it, as these events happen at different times. There is a logical contradiction in saying that God destroyed the world before creating it or at the same time as creating it. I know you are not claiming He did, but if he is not subject to logic, He most certainly did as there is nothing to stop Him from doing so.

When did time start according to atheist philosophy? There was a point zero (the Bible confirms it in Genesis 1:3). As I stated, we are limited to the sub-Firmamental (Genesis 1:6) timeline. God is not limited in the same manner. The Creation took place outside this timeline. Cause and effect can be reversed in that continuum. For Him, Creation and Destruction can be simultaneous or use the timeline of the Earth or reverse causality. God does not reside within this semi-linear (relativity) timeline. He can perceive every moment of time simultaneously. We can exercise logic when it comes to secular stuff (of which there is very little) but is it totally useless to try to wrap God within the small box of His Creation.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[James Hutchins]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Friend, I am not going to take apart every single one of your flawed statements for a multitude of reasons.

First, you completely failed to follow forum rules and show the most basic of common decency. Because of that, I have to expect you have some sort of mental defect. While I do not pity the brain damaged, I do not coddle them either. They are refuse.
Second, you look at God as if He were the equal of Man. He is not. He created everything. For example, He controls Intelligent pulling which Holds everything to the firmament. He could, if He chose, in a blink of an eye, reverse it and send everything hurtling into the Heavens above.
Thirdly, consider this: You're riding your bike, all proud because your dad took off the training wheels. A Good Humor truck comes and runs over your gut, causing your body to burst and spray entrails all over the street.

You're dead
Whether due to your own disgusting sinning or the Lords divine will, you are dead. Instantly your soul begins falling towards the black abyss above Hell. The falling seems eternal as you gather speed and the heat begins to grow. Then you notice a red dot below you growing larger by the second, this is the Lake in the center of Hell. It is the brightest point in Hell therefore it is visible for a great distance. Keep in mind that the farther you fall, the further from Christ you are.
As you gain speed and the flames become apparent you may wonder how you can stop this from happening. The answer is simple. It's too late and you can't, you're doomed. Your soul is damned and it WILL happen. The temperature is now approaching the unbearable limit as your flesh begins to smoulder and ignite and you continue to build speed as you plummet toward the now visible boiling Lake of Fire. You can almost make out individual souls thrashing in the magma with your flaming eyesockets. Soon you will join them, your terror mounts as your screams become gargled with the stench of Hells evil smell. The heat becomes excruciating as you notice your skin peeling away and your bones becoming visible and black. Flaming and screaming in anguish, you splashdown into the acidic brimstone of Satans Lake at around 250 MPH. You are instantly vaporized and reformed as a tormented soul writhing in absolute terror in the deafening depths of the Lake that Burns Eternal. The pain is beyond comprehension as you gnash your teeth so hard they shatter in your mouth. Satan periodically plucks you from the flames to savagely rape repeatedly and casually tosses you to his infernal minions to rip apart and rape at will, only to be reformed and have this scenario repeated...over and over and over, forever.
Is it still funny mocking our mission to Save© your soul? We want you to enjoy Heaven and eternal praise and worship at the feet of our Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ.

Unless you are Saved™ by Jesus Christ and His Holy website and favorite church, Landover Baptist, there is no other way to avoid this.

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I'm so sorry, what did I misspell?

I didn't read your post very closely, but these for a start.

<snip> vice verse <snip> non-sequetors

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

For the sake of clarity, here an the argument for God having to obey logic:

Premise 1: Something not subject to the laws of logic is, and does, everything simultaneously.
Premise 2: The "Everything" that that something could do includes, among other things, binding Himself to the laws of Logic.
Conclusion: Any being not bound by the laws of logic is immediately bound by the laws of logic

The conclusion follows logically from the first two premises. To reject the conclusion, you must reject one of the premises and explain why you have done so.

• The first premise is flawed. Why should "not being subject to the laws of logic" by definition include doing "everything imaginable". Does the "not being subject" make doing everything obligatory? Even if it does, then...
• Premise 2 is flawed. The "everything" would also entail the being not bound by logic releasing Himself from the laws of logic. The "everything" must by definition entail really everything. Both the "being bound" and "not being bound". Thus, this explains nothing as it can entail everything. In that case, the explanatory power of the claim = 0.

The useless conclusion would thus be that an Omnipotent being bound by these laws would immediately be released from these laws. This discussion really is useless. I much prefer the Bible to your musings.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Friend, I am not going to take apart every single one of your flawed statements for a multitude of reasons.

First, you completely failed to follow forum rules and show the most basic of common decency. Because of that, I have to expect you have some sort of mental defect. While I do not pity the brain damaged, I do not coddle them either. They are refuse.
Second, you look at God as if He were the equal of Man. He is not. He created everything. For example, He controls Intelligent pulling which Holds everything to the firmament. He could, if He chose, in a blink of an eye, reverse it and send everything hurtling into the Heavens above.
Thirdly, consider this: You're riding your bike, all proud because your dad took off the training wheels. A Good Humor truck comes and runs over your gut, causing your body to burst and spray entrails all over the street.

You're dead
Whether due to your own disgusting sinning or the Lords divine will, you are dead. Instantly your soul begins falling towards the black abyss above Hell. The falling seems eternal as you gather speed and the heat begins to grow. Then you notice a red dot below you growing larger by the second, this is the Lake in the center of Hell. It is the brightest point in Hell therefore it is visible for a great distance. Keep in mind that the farther you fall, the further from Christ you are.
As you gain speed and the flames become apparent you may wonder how you can stop this from happening. The answer is simple. It's too late and you can't, you're doomed. Your soul is damned and it WILL happen. The temperature is now approaching the unbearable limit as your flesh begins to smoulder and ignite and you continue to build speed as you plummet toward the now visible boiling Lake of Fire. You can almost make out individual souls thrashing in the magma with your flaming eyesockets. Soon you will join them, your terror mounts as your screams become gargled with the stench of Hells evil smell. The heat becomes excruciating as you notice your skin peeling away and your bones becoming visible and black. Flaming and screaming in anguish, you splashdown into the acidic brimstone of Satans Lake at around 250 MPH. You are instantly vaporized and reformed as a tormented soul writhing in absolute terror in the deafening depths of the Lake that Burns Eternal. The pain is beyond comprehension as you gnash your teeth so hard they shatter in your mouth. Satan periodically plucks you from the flames to savagely rape repeatedly and casually tosses you to his infernal minions to rip apart and rape at will, only to be reformed and have this scenario repeated...over and over and over, forever.
Is it still funny mocking our mission to Save© your soul? We want you to enjoy Heaven and eternal praise and worship at the feet of our Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ.

Unless you are Saved™ by Jesus Christ and His Holy website and favorite church, Landover Baptist, there is no other way to avoid this.

Lsiten, I know you probably mean well. But, having stated that you would "take apart every single one of your flawed statements for a multitude of reasons" You didn't mention or rebut a single one of them! Please, address my arguments.

I didn't read your post very closely, but these for a start.

My apologies. "vice versa" was an honest mistake while I had only ever heard "nonsecutor" in conversation, and didn't know how to spell it. Consider me educated.

[James Hutchins]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Lsiten, I know you probably mean well. But, having stated that you would "take apart every single one of your flawed statements for a multitude of reasons" You didn't mention or rebut a single one of them! Please, address my arguments.

No point in being redundant friend, several others have already destroyed you complete failure at first year college logic. Your underlying flaw is 'assumption based on your extremely limited knowledge' compared to Gods knowledge. He knows everything, past, present and future. So any 'new idea you may have, He came up with before time began.


You are playing tic-tac-toe and God always goes first.

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

• The first premise is flawed. Why should "not being subject to the laws of logic" by definition include doing "everything imaginable". Does the "not being subject" make doing everything obligatory? Even if it does, then...
• Premise 2 is flawed. The "everything" would also entail the being not bound by logic releasing Himself from the laws of logic. The "everything" must by definition entail really everything. Both the "being bound" and "not being bound". Thus, this explains nothing as it can entail everything. In that case, the explanatory power of the claim = 0.

The useless conclusion would thus be that an Omnipotent being bound by these laws would immediately be released from these laws. This discussion really is useless. I much prefer the Bible to your musings.

I was in the middle of writing a rebuttal to this when I realised you were right on more accounts than I had first thought. I was wrong; Not being bound by logic does not force one to do everything, instead it means one cannot do anything.




Allow me do demonstrate:
Premise 1: God wants to do a thing, e.g. create the world
Premise 2: God is able to do said thing
Conclusion: God does said thing


Although this logically follows, there is no logic to ensure that the conclusion follows on from the premises. As such the conclusion does not follow, and nothing happens. Ever.
Please understand that being bound by Logic is not a weakness, but a strength. It allows an entity to, for example, do something it wants to.




Also, may I compliment your wonderful use of bold and coloured letters? You've got it down to a T.

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

No point in being redundant friend, several others have already destroyed you complete failure at first year college logic. Your underlying flaw is 'assumption based on your extremely limited knowledge' compared to Gods knowledge. He knows everything, past, present and future. So any 'new idea you may have, He came up with before time began.


You are playing tic-tac-toe and God always goes first.

Whether or not that's true, I would ask you not to dishonestly claim that you were going to destroy my arguments when you had no intention of doing so.


On the other hand, the tic-tac-toe analogy is brilliant.

[Isabella White]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Dear Miss Logic: My goodness, that was a lot of typewriting, to make a few points of your confusion, all of which can be boiled down to this: You are going to for all of eternity. And why is that, you may well ask? Well, it's because you are ignoring the plain black & white truths that are contained within the blessed . If you think you are smarter than Almighty, then you still have a lot to learn, but your pride is standing in your way. Why don't you just admit that you are wrong, and open up your and read what it says, and then apply it to your own wretched, sin-filled life?

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

But, you can avoid that eternity in IF you confess your sins, turn your life over completely to the , and repent of your sinful ways, and live the rest of your life serving the .

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

As for metaphysics, I might mention that I have read an account of a metaphysics teacher in that -forsaken nation of Canada. She taught this metaphysics nonsense at an art school, and she claims that she (and 40 others) were rounded up and abducted by a UFO at the school. I'll provide the video of her account of this, and hopefully that will help to show you (and others) that this metaphysics business is a huge hoax -- a trick of the devil! You will do well to learn from it, Miss Logic, and to leave it and then turn to for your salvation.

Sincerely, Isabella W.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I had only ever heard "nonsecutor" in conversation, and didn't know how to spell it. Consider me educated.

It's non sequitur. It would have been easy to look it up and it would have given more credence to your claims of being educated.

I was in the middle of writing a rebuttal to this when I realised you were right on more accounts than I had first thought. I was wrong; Not being bound by logic does not force one to do everything, instead it means one cannot do anything.

Allow me do demonstrate:
Premise 1: God wants to do a thing, e.g. create the world
Premise 2: God is able to do said thing
Conclusion: God does said thing
Although this logically follows, there is no logic to ensure that the conclusion follows on from the premises. As such the conclusion does not follow, and nothing happens. Ever.
Please understand that being bound by Logic is not a weakness, but a strength. It allows an entity to, for example, do something it wants to.

No-ope... Obviously, want + ability does not necessarily equal doing it. However, "no logic to ensure the conclusion follows" does not necessarily lead to "nothing happens". It would just entail uncertainty whether the said thing will happen or not. You might want to look into fuzzy logic and statistics and see how they relate to the material world, social interaction and quantum mechanics.

The statement of logic being a strength is unsubstantiated. In fact, this sequel is more or less an ad hoc attempt to save your first attempt. Surely you know that that is a fallacy. And no, I'm not calling you Shirley.

You should also know that we are very well aware that Faith® is not based on reason, nor is it supposed to be (the Greek were known of their adherence to logic; the Jews are known of their killing our Christ).

1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


Yours in Christ,

Elmer