[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Mr White (Should I call you Elmer?), thank you for your civil discussion. I shall, as you advise, think more on this.

Do you have any evidence to support this hypothesis, or is it just a belief (that is something that cannot be backed up with evidence)?

Sure.


In essence:




Premise 1: Everything that "matters" in any way has an effect on the material world.
Premise 2: Science is a method by which one can measure things that have an effect on the material world.
Conclusion: Everything that "matters" can be measured by science.




I await your response, though I won't be able to reply for a couple of hours.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Thank you for that educational excursion. I've heard that Airplane is a good movie, but I haven't watched it yet. I'll do so as soon as I can.

As for the cause of everything and why something exists rather than nothing, the simple Atheist's/Scientist's answer is we don't know yet, and that's okay. I am of the belief that everything that matters can be found out with Science, and I can elaborate on that if you want me to.

Dear Sinner,

I do appreciate your efforts to engage in polite and somewhat logical discussion. If you took some more time to consider these issues and not only repeated the simple "atheist answers" you could have noticed that I actually gave you an answer on a silver platter. I stated that in the Universe there are phenomena that do not seem to require a cause and that these phenomena are quantum occurrences. If you give credence to the Big Band theory (we don't), you might realize that it is at its deepest level also a quantum event, as on the scale of the singularity both classical mechanics and general relativity are useless and quantum mechanics reign. Thus, a quantum event may not require a cause at all. Following this, the Universe as a quantum phenomenon would not necessarily require a cause.

I can reveal this to you. I do know that you may use it to oppose God and Jesus but if you really wish to be educated, you may want to ponder this discussion as a whole and learn from it how you can become a worthy opponent to us True Christians™. We do enjoy the verbal interactions with unbelievers but only rarely are we really challenged.

Of course, we have an answer that is totally satisfactory. We know.

Romans 11:36
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

For now I rest my case and let you have further discourse with my Brethren and Sisters in Christ.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Basilissa]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

I am of the belief that everything that matters can be found out with Science, and I can elaborate on that if you want me to.

Do you have any evidence to support this hypothesis, or is it just a belief (that is something that cannot be backed up with evidence)?

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Let us examine this once again. The emergence of the Universe is an action. You say that it requires a cause. What would you say that the cause (or the necessary logic) for the existence of something rather than nothing is?
Surely you are familiar with the notion that God appreciates humor?

Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Let us just say that my not calling you Shirley can be another educational excursion to you, a nice assignment in data acquisition and search.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

Thank you for that educational excursion. I've heard that Airplane is a good movie, but I haven't watched it yet. I'll do so as soon as I can.


As for the cause of everything and why something exists rather than nothing, the simple Atheist's/Scientist's answer is we don't know yet, and that's okay. I am of the belief that everything that matters can be found out with Science, and I can elaborate on that if you want me to.

[James Hutchins]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Your musings/opinions, while wonderful to read, do not add to the discussion. Though I am not personally against this, I believe this is against some forum rules

Honestly, I have tried my darnedest to 'dumb it down' for you but it still scoots right over your head like a turkey vulture going after a dead cat.
In the Bible, it is written how God created everything. How all things of the world are defined by His Divine Words™. Nothing man can say or do has not already been said or done by Him. As you expand your understanding, you are only just beginning to have an infinitesimally small grasp on His all encompassing Supreme knowledge.

To put is simply, you are but a drop of water in the ocean of knowledge. As fast as you fall in, you evaporate.

God sees your folly and every mis-step of yours is a leap in to the abyss of Hell.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

If there is nothing to cause an action, or when an action is not necessitated by logic ... the action does not occur.

Let us examine this once again. The emergence of the Universe is an action. You say that it requires a cause. What would you say that the cause (or the necessary logic) for the existence of something rather than nothing is?

Secondly, when did I ever ask you to call me Shirley? This is one point on which I am very confused.

Surely you are familiar with the notion that God appreciates humor?

Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Let us just say that my not calling you Shirley can be another educational excursion to you, a nice assignment in data acquisition and search.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Logic entails cause and effect. In God's Creation, at the deepest level, there are occurrences that have a lack of cause: the appearance of virtual particles and radioactive decay. In these cases there is nothing to cause an action. While my drinking a cup of tea may well require motivation/case, etc., these events that are parts of the most fundamental structure of the world, do not. Otherwise you'd be able to predict exactly when (within a Planck time) an event of radioactive decay takes place and not just make a general statistical notion of its likelihood. Are you able to do that? This means that at the very base of the Creation lies the defiance of your logic by God.

Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Incidentally, your frequent mentions of being educated are an example of an appeal to authority. Surely you know that it is fallacy. Based on the secular logic, it is only your arguments that matter, not if you are better educated than two hours ago. You probably agree that these rules are imperative to all discussion, and that disobeying them leads to anarchy, don't you? And no, I still am not calling you Shirley.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

You make some good points. I will concede that a God could exist apart from the laws of Logic.


I have but a couple more things to say. When I said "Consider me educated" I did not mean in any way to brag or appeal to authority. I simply meant that you have taught me a thing, or encouraged me to look up a thing, as a result of which I have become more educated. Secondly, when did I ever ask you to call me Shirley? This is one point on which I am very confused.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Consider me educate a a second time. I'm really sorry, I thought I'd looked it up.

If there is nothing to cause an action, or when an action is not necessitated by logic (everything you do relies on logic - I raise again the challenge of doing something without it) the action does not occur.
If there is nothing to make you drink a cup of tea, you will not drink a cup of tea. If there is every reason for you to drink a cup of tea, but you are not subject to the laws of logic, there is nothing to say you will drink that cup of tea; as such you will not drink a cup of tea.

Logic entails cause and effect. In God's Creation, at the deepest level, there are occurrences that have a lack of cause: the appearance of virtual particles and radioactive decay. In these cases there is nothing to cause an action. While my drinking a cup of tea may well require motivation/case, etc., these events that are parts of the most fundamental structure of the world, do not. Otherwise you'd be able to predict exactly when (within a Planck time) an event of radioactive decay takes place and not just make a general statistical notion of its likelihood. Are you able to do that? This means that at the very base of the Creation lies the defiance of your logic by God.

Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Incidentally, your frequent mentions of being educated are an example of an appeal to authority. Surely you know that it is fallacy. Based on the secular logic, it is only your arguments that matter, not if you are better educated than two hours ago. You probably agree that these rules are imperative to all discussion, and that disobeying them leads to anarchy, don't you? And no, I still am not calling you Shirley.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Honestly, with all the grade school mistakes this poor fellow makes, he still thinks he is able to have a deeper comprehension of everything than the Creator. Sort of like seeing a toaster with a missing sensor which results in only burnt toast no matter how he twiddles his knob.


This reminds me of that story of the Jenkins boy, you know, the one who drags his foot.

Well, he was watching the day-shines playing basket ball down at the train yard, seeing those darkies dunk the ball. When he tried it, he feel short by three feet. So he gets this bight idea to use a step ladder. So he climbs to the top of the ladder. Jumps off and shatters his leg when he hit the ground (God pulled on him something fierce!) Ball missed going in the basket too.

Sure was funny to watch.

Your musings/opinions, while wonderful to read, do not add to the discussion. Though I am not personally against this, I believe this is against some forum rules

[Basilissa]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Logic is important.

Not for those who want to obey God. You should know that God hates rational thinking. As humans, we have a choice: obey God and disregard logic, or follow logic and go to Hell.


Which one do you choose?

[James Hutchins]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Honestly, with all the grade school mistakes this poor fellow makes, he still thinks he is able to have a deeper comprehension of everything than the Creator. Sort of like seeing a toaster with a missing sensor which results in only burnt toast no matter how he twiddles his knob.


This reminds me of that story of the Jenkins boy, you know, the one who drags his foot.

Well, he was watching the day-shines playing basket ball down at the train yard, seeing those darkies dunk the ball. When he tried it, he feel short by three feet. So he gets this bight idea to use a step ladder. So he climbs to the top of the ladder. Jumps off and shatters his leg when he hit the ground (God pulled on him something fierce!) Ball missed going in the basket too.

Sure was funny to watch.

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Reading through my post again, it looks like I said "educate" instead of "educated". Sorry, again. today's just not my day when it comes to spelling, eh?

[The_Power_of_Logic]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

It's non sequitur.

Consider me educate a a second time. I'm really sorry, I thought I'd looked it up.

No-ope... Obviously, want + ability does not necessarily equal doing it. However, "no logic to ensure the conclusion follows" does not necessarily lead to "nothing happens". It would just entail uncertainty whether the said thing will happen or not. You might want to look into fuzzy logic and statistics and see how they relate to the material world, social interaction and quantum mechanics.

The statement of logic being a strength is unsubstantiated. In fact, this sequel is more or less an ad hoc attempt to save your first attempt. Surely you know that that is a fallacy.

If there is nothing to cause an action, or when an action is not necessitated by logic (everything you do relies on logic - I raise again the challenge of doing something without it) the action does not occur.
If there is nothing to make you drink a cup of tea, you will not drink a cup of tea. If there is every reason for you to drink a cup of tea, but you are not subject to the laws of logic, there is nothing to say you will drink that cup of tea; as such you will not drink a cup of tea.

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

My apologies. "vice versa" was an honest mistake while I had only ever heard "nonsecutor" in conversation, and didn't know how to spell it. Consider me educated.

I see you still don't know how to spell it. So rather than consider you educated, I now consider you a mere idle troll, too lazy to even look up the correct spelling. I shall engage with you no further.

[James Hutchins]

Re: Even God has to obey Logic

Whether or not that's true, I would ask you not to dishonestly claim that you were going to destroy my arguments when you had no intention of doing so.


On the other hand, the tic-tac-toe analogy is brilliant.

Friend, a dying man does not need to be kicked. It is cruel.