[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

My source is the Bible.
The meaning behind 'man cannot sin' means 'man cannot continually sin' or 'habitually sin.'

Very well, where does not "continually" or "habitually" come from? Let us look at the Greek original:

1 John 3:9
Πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἁμαρτίαν οὐ ποιεῖ, ὅτι σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ μένει, καὶ οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτάνειν, ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται.

• ἁμαρτίαν οὐ ποιεῖ =sin not can - nothing about habitual.
• οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτάνειν = not can make sin (in fact, cannot continue to make sin as the infinitive gives the issue a permanent basis) - opposite to your claim. Please explain.

It could not mean anything else because otherwise it would contradict John. John is not teaching that all Christians are perfect. In fact, Paul said he was Chief of the Sinners.

How could John contradict John? Please show the contradiction verse by verse. You might also find some data in Matthew, 2 Timothy and Deuteronomy). How would something that Paul said make John contradict against himself? And how do you know that the Bible is correct in the first place? How did you assess that?

It is just as much a sin to say 'I am without sin' than it is to do the act of sin. It's like lying to God.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

This refers to past events, not present. What about the Greek original?

• πάντες γὰρ ἥμαρτον καὶ ὑστεροῦνται τῆς δόξης τοῦ Θεοῦ,
• ἥμαρτον = sinned. This is the aorist indicative, the most usual verb form of koine Greek relating to past events. Please explain.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

My source is the Bible...

No, it's not. It's some apologists trying to explain away stuff they're not comfortable with, like a God who expects His Grace (being saved/born again, finding Jesus, call it what you will) to actually have an effect, as Elmer has pointed out:

...
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God...

[Shadoe_Hare]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

Hi Shadoe,
The Pastors here have already investigated me and decided that I am on the fast bus to Aeternal Damnation as soon as I perish.

Me too, probably-lol!


Well, before my bus comes I'm having a lot of fun here in the meantime; debating and seeing people's different points of view.


Some viewpoints I find interesting, some are disturbing, and some are downright hilarious.

[Shadoe_Hare]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

OK. Obviously there was a need for Jesus to Redeem! The 1 John verse relates to people who have actually chosen Him and become Saved®. What you wrote is about the state before being Saved®. But, let's dig deeper!

• How do you know all this?
• What is this opinion of yours based upon? Where is the evidence material?
• How does this potential evidence material make void the verse below? What makes it better?

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

• What do you usually use as evidence material to test the veracity of a claim? How do you assess its reliability?
• What we have here is your testimony and we appreciate your willingness to give it to us? But how do you know that you've made the correct inference based on whatever evidence material you have?

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

My source is the Bible.


The meaning behind 'man cannot sin' means 'man cannot continually sin' or 'habitually sin.'


It could not mean anything else because otherwise it would contradict John. John is not teaching that all Christians are perfect. In fact, Paul said he was Chief of the Sinners.


It is just as much a sin to say 'I am without sin' than it is to do the act of sin. It's like lying to God.

http://www.letusreason.org

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

Hmmm, yes, God is everywhere. It was a real scenario so I guess my 'if' was just the writer in me.

Dear person,

"Omnipotent" means that God is capable of everything. "Omnipresent" is the word for "being everywhere" - you probably got confused.

Have you considered checking your claims from databases (dictionaries, peer-reviewed articles, the Bible) before answering. Fact-checking is hard work. What is your way to test hypotheses and where does your evidence derive if you refuse to do that? The Bible is not against having tangible proof of issues.

Jeremiah 32:11
So I took the evidence of the purchase, both that which was sealed according to the law and custom, and that which was open:


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

'Hell' comes from the Anglo Saxon word 'Hades', which means 'unknown realm' or 'the world below'. It's basically a place for disembodied spirits. The word 'Hades' changed to 'Hell' when Greeks converted to Christianity.

Very well, this is a genetic fallacy, the origin of something does not make it correct or real at present. The etymology of a word does not make the concept more real, either. We know very well that words can change their meanings, for instance, thou used to be more or less derogatory spoken to inferiors and it's become a reverent form to address God. Does its usage in between its origin as the singular second person pronoun and archaism make it unsuitable for that? For instance, the word Hell is of the PIE root *kel- (1) "to cover, conceal, save", and Old English got it as a cognate from there.

There are different levels of Hades/Hell, but Fire and eternal torment was never mentioned. This makes sense, to me anyway. I couldn't imagine a loving God sending someone to Hell for all eternity for a minor infraction like stealing a candy bar.

How do you know this? In fact, all sins are equal in the eyes of God!

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Making sense to you is just another example of the appeal to authority, in this case yours. How do you know that you've got it right? Your inability to imagine is the appeal to ignorance fallacy. Some people cannot imagine quantum physics but your computer still works, doesn't it?

Instead, it's believed by many, that you judge yourself via God. When you die, God shows everything good and bad you did in your life. When you do bad, you feel the pain you caused others, thereby understanding, and learning, how awful a person you were.

"By many"? Now this is the ad populum fallacy! Many believe in Allah, does that mean that they are correct? Many believe that Jesus was not a historical person but a story about an angel in outer space (see, for instance, Richard Carrier for more data)? The number of followers does not make a claim true. Only by examining the content can we tell that. Your claim is like the History Channel show Ancient Aliens, a good example of cognitive biases. The narrator there states how "many ancient astronaut theorists believe that..." and afterwards it is taken as factual. In fact, the Bible tells us that "many people" can be wrong.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You might go to Heaven if you've accepted Jesus, but I suppose it's correct in saying that not everyone goes to Heaven, not straight away at least.

Some people who die haven't found God or Jesus so will have to roam the earth as spirits until Christ's return.

And what is this "might" based on? In fact, it is just another possilibiter fallacy. Just because you can make up a scenario does not make your scenario correct. In addition, this is an appeal to unknown authorities ("some people") which is even worse than appealing to your own authority as these "some people" cannot be located to question about their evidence.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Shadoe_Hare]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

Wait a minute here. What do you mean by "if"? Is your god omnipotent or not?

Hmmm, yes, God is everywhere. It was a real scenario so I guess my 'if' was just the writer in me.

[Shadoe_Hare]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

Hi Shadoe,

Can you explain how you came to that conclusion? Why would those people who died in the car crash go to Heaven and not to Hell? According to Matthew 7:14 the latter outcome would be the more plausible one. Can you elaborate on your position?

Kind regards, Roland

'Hell' comes from the Anglo Saxon word 'Hades', which means 'unknown realm' or 'the world below'. It's basically a place for disembodied spirits. The word 'Hades' changed to 'Hell' when Greeks converted to Christianity.


There are different levels of Hades/Hell, but Fire and eternal torment was never mentioned. This makes sense, to me anyway. I couldn't imagine a loving God sending someone to Hell for all eternity for a minor infraction like stealing a candy bar.


Instead, it's believed by many, that you judge yourself via God. When you die, God shows everything good and bad you did in your life. When you do bad, you feel the pain you caused others, thereby understanding, and learning, how awful a person you were.


You might go to Heaven if you've accepted Jesus, but I suppose it's correct in saying that not everyone goes to Heaven, not straight away at least.


Some people who die haven't found God or Jesus so will have to roam the earth as spirits until Christ's return.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

If people could not commit sins then there would have been no reason for Jesus to die for us.

Even if we're ' born again' we're still sinners because of Adam's curse. The point of being born again is to accept Jesus as our savior and be forgiven of our sins.

We can still sin, however, because we're humans, it's what we do, thanks to Adam...

But the difference is that after we're born again we are supposed to try really hard not to sin, to please God and Jesus, and if we do sin we should confess, ask for God's forgiveness and try harder to follow God's laws.

OK. Obviously there was a need for Jesus to Redeem! The 1 John verse relates to people who have actually chosen Him and become Saved®. What you wrote is about the state before being Saved®. But, let's dig deeper!

• How do you know all this?
• What is this opinion of yours based upon? Where is the evidence material?
• How does this potential evidence material make void the verse below? What makes it better?

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

• What do you usually use as evidence material to test the veracity of a claim? How do you assess its reliability?
• What we have here is your testimony and we appreciate your willingness to give it to us? But how do you know that you've made the correct inference based on whatever evidence material you have?

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

...It's sad, but if that's what God wanted, then so be it...

Wait a minute here. What do you mean by "if"? Is your god omnipotent or not?

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

Yes, I find most people here in the Forum inturpret the Bible very strangely, if not downright crazy.

We just discussed the ad hominem, accusing people instead of looking at the content of the claim. Now, what do you think this citation of yours quoted above could be classified as (insane people have come up with great inventions, actually)?

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

A car pile up on an Interstate would be bad, yes, however, it could be that God needed to take certain people up to Heaven and made the car crash happen for that reason. It's sad, but if that's what God wanted, then so be it.

The person who couldn't get his car started and avoided the wreck might have needed to live for various reasons only known by God.

Dear person,

Your reply is a simple form of the possibiliter fallacy. You create a potential scenario ("it could be that God needed - and as written elsewhere on the Forum by an actual Heathen, why would God Omnipotent (Revelation 19:6) need someone and for which task?) and then use it as if real to justify your position ("then so be it"). The fact that something is possible does not make it probable, not even the best explanation. Please provide us with at least some Bayesian reasoning (the prior probability of this person being needed in Heaven vs. the probabilities provided by evidence). To discuss potential scenarios as answers to question that you actually cannot answer does not lead us to any reliable conclusions. The second sentence ("might have needed to live") is just another possibiliter fallacy. We need hard Biblical facts, not taking hypothetical constructs as adequate answers to the issue at hand.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Shadoe_Hare]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

Darling,

We cannot be sick or perverted. The Bible tells us that we cannot even commit sins.

If people could not commit sins then there would have been no reason for Jesus to die for us.


Even if we're ' born again' we're still sinners because of Adam's curse. The point of being born again is to accept Jesus as our savior and be forgiven of our sins.


We can still sin, however, because we're humans, it's what we do, thanks to Adam...


But the difference is that after we're born again we are supposed to try really hard not to sin, to please God and Jesus, and if we do sin we should confess, ask for God's forgiveness and try harder to follow God's laws.

[Roland]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

A car pile up on an Interstate would be bad, yes, however, it could be that God needed to take certain people up to Heaven and made the car crash happen for that reason.

Hi Shadoe,

Can you explain how you came to that conclusion? Why would those people who died in the car crash go to Heaven and not to Hell? According to Matthew 7:14 the latter outcome would be the more plausible one. Can you elaborate on your position?

Kind regards, Roland

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

The tale of Balaam and his ass is my favorite story in the Bible so I know it well. The story, put simply, is how Balaam learned that he needed to listen to God and how it's God who is in control.

Nice. This is OK but the appeal to personal authority ("I know it so well") is unnecessary and, actually, a fallacy. The veracity of the explanation does not depend on your personal characteristics (this is like the opposite fallacy to ad hominem, don't you think?).

A Furry, by the way, is just someone who likes anthropomorphic animals. (Animals with human characteristics.) The animals from the Lion King, Madagascar, Paddington Bear, etc. would be considered anthropomorphic because they can talk, have reasoning, and other human qualities.

Not all Furries create our own animal character much less have fursuits. Those things are ridiculously expensive.

You are now defining the concept "furry" in a manner to make it sin-free. Obviously, and we know this type of whitewashing very well, and there are people with predisposition to sin (such as homosexuality, female emancipation, pedophilia) who fight these urges and restrain themselves, which can be quite admirable. However, this does not contain those "furries" who act upon these vile impulses (against the advice in the Book of Zephaniah quoted above). But does this Save® them? Actually, it does not. Thought crimes are condemned by Jesus. Thinking about sins is exactly the same as committing them in the flesh!

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The complaint about prices is just reminiscent of the ad misericordiam fallacy, isn't it? The financial inability to commit sin will be looked upon favorably by Jesus based on the verse above.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Shadoe_Hare]

Re: Hello from kentucky...

Yes, I find most people here in the Forum inturpret the Bible very strangely, if not downright crazy.

A car pile up on an Interstate would be bad, yes, however, it could be that God needed to take certain people up to Heaven and made the car crash happen for that reason. It's sad, but if that's what God wanted, then so be it.


The person who couldn't get his car started and avoided the wreck might have needed to live for various reasons only known by God.