[Levi Jones]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

So... This website has always been here? The Landover Baptist Church has always existed? You are making this a really difficult question... Maybe I'll rephrase...again...

You realize you make them same claim as every other Christian church out there right? There is no religion following Christ that does not claim to follow the Bible. So where are you from? Seriously, what human being sat down and founded your church? Where?


Untrue. The word as the world knows it was not established until around 400 AD. And your King James Bible was not around until after the protestant reform around 1500 AD.

So why is this such a big deal? Why can't you tell me your history?

I'm not sure if you can read this section not being a member.
Pastor Billy-Reuben had a wonderful sermon on True Christian history here.

Rebuke here for you being too lazy to search for yourself.

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

You should worry about getting forgiveness from Jesus for being an idolater.

Irony. You suggest I lie to God, saying that I am an idolater, and thus ask forgiveness for a sin I did not commit? Lying in the process? Eh... No thanks....

Don't be ridiculous, Jesus HATED Mary: http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0504/mothersday.html

I will address the verses quoted here as I come across them, for they were all taken out of context.

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother...he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26).

You agree that the Bible cannot contradict itself, yes? So here, Jesus says that we must hate our entire family (mother, father, husband, wife, brother etc.) in order to follow him. However, elsewhere in the Bible he says to "honor thy mother and father" and further for husbands to love their wives. This would appear a direct contradiction with your literal interpretation. Thus, I will show you the Catholic answer here:
If you read further in the passage Jesus says to pick up your cross and follow him; to leave all earthly possessions behind. This verse explains that this also includes our family. For, I we love them more than the Father, how can we truly follow Him? We must be prepared to leave them behind.

"Woman, what have I to do with thee?" (John 2:4).

This verse seeks only to show that Jesus did not work miracles to help his family and friends, as in the apocryphal gospels. Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one's mother.
How does your concern affect me? literal translation would be: "What is this to me and you?"
Your website claims that Jesus performed this miracle merely as apeasment because his mother nagged him to come to this wedding. But the Bible explicitly states that "Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding" and makes no suggestion whatsoever that Jesus did not want to be there. However, do you really think that Jesus, as God, would perform a miracle here simply to appease someone? Does he do this anywhere else in the Bible? No. The idea is preposterous. He is God. He doesn't need to appease people. All his miracles were acts of Love, and they always will be.

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46).

Really this has no significance to Mary.
Our Father who art in Heaven -- Finish the sentence. Surely you can all do that?
Well in the same way the Jews could have recited Psalm 22, which was what Jesus cried out right then, and it was enough to say just that. He need not finish the sentence. Just as I need not finish the Lord's Prayer above.

"Woman, behold thy son!" (John 19:26)

This means exactly what it says. Mary, this (and ALL as the Catholic Church believes) is your son. And that she is our Mother. Or even if you cannot accept that she is mother to all, know that Jesus cared enough for her to see that she was taken after when he was gone.
Also you will notice, that it was immediately after Jesus declared Mary our Mother that he declared his work finished. It was his last commandment, that we take Mary into our homes. Then, and only then, was his work finished.

Some more verses you should read up on:

Luke 1:28, 30 - Angel said to Mary she was: "full of grace, and that she found favor with God"
Luke 1:48 - In Mary Song, she prophecies, "all generations will call me blessed"
Luke 10:40 - Elizabeth said to Mary that she was, "the most blessed among women"

Call here Blessed. The Bible commands it.

And Catholics make Mary cry: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp

This is a complete fabrication. If there is some point here, then I missed it. Feel free to reiterate.

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

Now let me show you how you would do that properly.

Here's an interesting article I found at: http://www.carm.org/religious-moveme...aints-biblical

First, regarding verse 8, can the prayers be authored by those who are already in heaven? It doesn't say. There are different interpretations on exactly who the saints are because their identity can't be precisely demonstrated; after all, Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Therefore, if it cannot be demonstrated conclusively who they are, then it cannot be demonstrated conclusively whose prayers they are, either. Nevertheless, verse 9 says "they sang a new song." Who is the "they"? It would have to be either the the four living creatures and/or the 24 elders since "prayers of the saints" don't sing, "creatures" and "elders" do the singing.
In verse 11-12 the angels, the creatures, and the elders who were all around the throne (which means they are in heaven) were praising God directly. In verse 13 it says every created thing in heaven and earth was praising God, then the elders fell down and worshiped, v. 14.

While not explicitly saying that the prayers here are our own here on earth, it does not say that they are not either.

The dictionary defines prayer as a spiritual communion with God. If the saints are in heaven, they are in CONSTANT communion with God. Furthermore, they are in heaven, so what are they praying for? So that God doesn't kick them out? Of course not! They are praying for us, here on earth. We are the only ones with our souls in jeopardy, and if they pray to go for us already, why can we not ask them to?

Second

, just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints. If they can hear the prayers of people it is because God grants that to them. Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let's not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience. Nevertheless, all the text is saying is that they can hear the praise and worship of God. It does not say that they are to receive prayers, nor does it imply praying to them is permitted.

You think it makes a difference whether I pray silently or with spoken words? Where does the Bible say that?
You are bound by the flesh, you cannot possible know what it will be like in heaven. You cannot possible know if "silent" prayers are audible or not. This is a conjecture with no scriptural basis.

All it says is that they can hear the prayers and praise. There is nothing suggesting that those on Earth are requesting the prayers or intercession of those in heaven.

Well the Catholics are asking for it. All the billions of them. Count on it

Third

, even if the case can be made that prayers are authored in heaven, and that those prayers are mingled with the prayers of those from Earth, it still does not justify those on Earth praying to those in heaven. At best, all that we can say is that the prayers of those in heaven and the prayers of those on Earth are mingled. To say any more than that is to read into the Scripture what is not there.

It is. But Martin Luther took it out. And if I showed you where, I'd be infracted

Fourth, can the saints in heaven hear every prayer of every creature all the time? The Roman Catholic Church prefers to say that it's possible; otherwise, it would not be possible to pray to Mary legitimately. The standard Protestant objection is that praying to the saints implies a type of omniscience on the hearers' part. The Roman Catholic Church replies that we do not know what the state is of those in heaven and that we should not therefore conclude that they cannot hear all of our prayers. But this is an argument from silence. In other words, we don't know what it is like so we conclude it's possible. It is an argument based on what we do not know, not what we do know. This is a very, very weak way of trying to present a position. Ultimately, it is an admission by the Roman Catholic Church that the Scriptures do not teach in any direct way their dogma of praying to the saints. The Roman Catholic Church must infer this from scripture and read it into the text in order to support its error.

Well I explained the logic of Christ's Church to you, reject it if you will, but the Holy Spirit guides us.

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

Sir/Ma'am, are you familiar with anyone named John the Baptist?

Quite so. You claim he founded your Church?

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

I'm not sure if you can read this section not being a member.
Pastor Billy-Reuben had a wonderful sermon on True Christian history here.

Rebuke here for you being too lazy to search for yourself.

Alright thanks I needed a clear answer.

Ok, so are any of you familiar with Ignatius of Antioch?

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

Irony. You suggest I lie to God, saying that I am an idolater, and thus ask forgiveness for a sin I did not commit? Lying in the process? Eh... No thanks....

Exodus 20:4-5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Tell me what that says, exactly and only what that says. Don't spin it around. Don't tell me what you stole off a Catholic apologist website. Contemplate that and then read this:

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

I will address the verses quoted here as I come across them, for they were all taken out of context.

At this point, I don't think I can say more then I disagree with your interpretation. Basically, I think Jesus actually means what He says, whereas you have to interpret what Jesus says and twist it around so that it agrees with what you think is right. Just one thing. Where in the Bible does Jesus call Mary His mother?

Luke 1:28, 30 - Angel said to Mary she was: "full of grace, and that she found favor with God"
Luke 1:48 - In Mary Song, she prophecies, "all generations will call me blessed"
Luke 10:40 - Elizabeth said to Mary that she was, "the most blessed among women"

Call here Blessed. The Bible commands it.

Actually, it forbids it:

Luke 11:27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

This is a complete fabrication. If there is some point here, then I missed it. Feel free to reiterate.

Go ahead and point out the things within the tract which you feel are nonfactual.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

Quite so. You claim he founded your Church?

Jesus founded our church. John was the first Christian, and we worship God the way he did to this day.

Catholics have been worshiping God in the pagan's way since about 400AD, and every century the keep adding more and more wacky stuff on board.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

Alright thanks I needed a clear answer.

Ok, so are any of you familiar with Ignatius of Antioch?

This again?

We have been over this a million times already. OF ANTIOCH!!!!! Those sources come from the church in Antioch which basically lays claim to Antioch as being the center of the church.
Many of the writers you will copy and paste from catholics.com exist only as framents from the burning of The Great Library of Alexandria.

Head desk head desk. Your little remora Jimmy, has already gone through the entire copypaste of catholics.com so many times I can't count in the month or two I have been here. We already know all the counter arguments.

Jimmy is already the cheerleader for the papist dogs. There's Maurice Lester. There's the other guy with the beard who punked Jimmy earlier.

What does yet another catlick troll really accomplish?

[James Peter]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

You're just jealous because God doesn't love you.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

You're just jealous because God doesn't love (eros) you.

By loving me, you mean His representatives on Earth are not raping my children?

So true.

I really hope there's a window from Heaven into hell.

[James Peter]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

According to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, yes there is. You'll be down there begging me for some water to relief your agony, and I'll get to just smile and refuse you any

Amen.

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

Exodus 20:4-5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

This, when NOT taken out of context, simply forbids the WORSHIP of any graven images. Should I pick out the one verse simly forbiding graven images, then you would be correct. However, because I read the entire passage, I know the true intent. To serve no other Gods, for our God is a jealous God. I do not worship saints. I do not worhship Mary.

At this point, I don't think I can say more then I disagree with your interpretation. Basically, I think Jesus actually means what He says, whereas you have to interpret what Jesus says and twist it around so that it agrees with what you think is right.

You see you and I have mutual feelings in this respect. I see that you twist things to mean something they don't as I explained above in this post. But yes, if you cannot accept it, then we must agree to disagree.

But you see, you are not my target audience. I seek not to convince you for I simply do not have the time. I reach out to those not so lost as you, those that I can still reach. Only God and time might change your heart. But those newcomers to this website. I pray for them, that they not be led astray.

Just one thing. Where in the Bible does Jesus call Mary His mother?

It is implied many times. Would you deny the Trinity? Even though it is not stated in scripture?

Here:

Matthew 1:23 - Look! the virgin is with child and will give birth to a son whom they will call Immanuel, "a name which means ‘God is with us’"

Virgin... will give birth to a son. She is His mother.

Galatians 4:4-5 - but when the completion of the time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman...

Born of a woman.... She is His mother.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth says to Mary, "Why should I be honored with a visit from the mother of my Lord?"

Luke 3:34 - and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother....

The mother of my Lord... She is His mother. Explicitly stated.

Actually, it forbids it:

Luke 11:27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Does this mean that Mary was NOT blessed? Nope. It says simply that she not blessed simply for the fact that she gave birth to him alone. For example, it also says that:

"My mother and my brothers are those that hear the word of God and act on it" (Luke 8:21)

Now we have verses supporting both sides. Again, the bible cannot contradict itself. Allow me to teach you.

The beatitude in Luke 11:28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus. Rather, it empahsizes that attentiveness to God's word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.

Such as in Luke 8:21, the family of Jesus is not constituded by physical relationship with him buy by obediecnce to the word of God. In this, Luke agrees with the Marcan parallel (Mark 3 31-35). Probably he did this because Mary has ALREADY been presented in Luke 1:38 as the obedient handmaid of the lord who fulfills the requirement for belonging to the eschatological family of Jesus. She has already submitted to God's word. She is already family.

You cannot take scripture out of context. This requires deep study and guidance. Otherwise, the Bible will contradict itself. Hopefully this will help you understand.

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

Jesus founded our church. John was the first Christian, and we worship God the way he did to this day.

Oh. Well we worship how the apostles and their successors did. How can you claim to be connected to them when your roots are in John the Baptist? Which they are not I might add... Unless you can persaude me otherwise..

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

This again?

We have been over this a million times already. OF ANTIOCH!!!!! Those sources come from the church in Antioch which basically lays claim to Antioch as being the center of the church.
Many of the writers you will copy and paste from catholics.com exist only as framents from the burning of The Great Library of Alexandria.

Head desk head desk. Your little remora Jimmy, has already gone through the entire copypaste of catholics.com so many times I can't count in the month or two I have been here. We already know all the counter arguments.

Then tell me. If I'm worshipping wrong I want to know.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Catholic. Born, raised and proud

Then tell me. If I'm worshipping wrong I want to know.

That was when she was alive. The Word clearly tells you to quit bowing and scraping to graven images of Mary, Jesus or your aints.