Afternoon

[The True Mop]

Hello, I'm an eighteen-year old Anglican from the UK, and I'm interested to see the different ways in which the Bible is interpreted by different people.

Before people start judging me because I'm merely Anglican, please realise that I'm a firm believer in God, and intend to follow the Teachings he gave us.

I do, however, believe that there it is wrong to force your beliefs upon other people, and as such, I remain contented and keep my religious beliefs to myself. The word of God speaks to me and if it does not speak to them, I am not the one to change it.

I welcome all discussion on Christianity and any other subjects.

[Johny Joe Hold]

Re: Afternoon

Before people start judging me because I'm merely Anglican, please realise that I'm a firm believer in God, and intend to follow the Teachings he gave us.

Do you believe every word in the Bible is that of God?

[The True Mop]

Re: Afternoon

Do you believe every word in the Bible is that of God?

To which translation are you referring to?

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Afternoon

Hello, I'm an eighteen-year old Anglican from the UK, and I'm interested to see the different ways in which the Bible is interpreted by different people.

Who said anything about interpreting it?

I do, however, believe that there it is wrong to force your beliefs upon other people, and as such, I remain contented and keep my religious beliefs to myself.

2 Chron. 15:13: That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Ezekiel 3:18-19: When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Mark 16:15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

1 Tim. 5:20: Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

[Matthew the ex-muslim]

Re: Afternoon

To which translation are you referring to?

There's only one true Bible and that's the KJV 1611

[The True Mop]

Re: Afternoon

There's only one true Bible and that's the KJV 1611

So you're saying that an English translation of God's word is truer than the original Hebrew texts? Many things become lost in translation in anything.

Oh, and as for interpretation, no matter what, people will read things differently, it's impossible for everyone to read something the same way. A good example was given to us in one of my law lessons recently. Everyone knows this classic nursery rhyme:
Georgie Porgie, pudding and pie,
Kissed the girls and made them cry,
When the boys came out to play,
Georgie Porgie ran away.

Everyone's heard it a thousand times, but ask yourself this:
Is Georgie a boy or a girl?
'Georgie' is assumed to be a variation on the name 'George', and yet it can also be a girl's name, and is commonly used as it. Now let's just assume for a moment that Georgie is a girl. Now read it again. Now ask yourself:
Is Georgie a lesbian?
She kissed the girls, but it doesn't say that it was sexual, so she could also be heterosexual. Now let's go back on ourselves and say that Georgie is in fact a boy. He kissed the girls, they cried and when the boys arrived, he ran away. But did he run away from the boys or with the boys? If he ran away with the boys, is he gay? Also, notice the line "When the boys came out to play". To 'come out' is a euphemism for admitting that one is homosexual. So let's imagine these boys have 'come out'. Is Georgie running away with them? Or is he running away from them because he is afraid of them?

Now before you start harking questions to relevance, I am merely using this as an example. The Bible is the written word of God, but it is still written word. Take into account that only 5% of human communication is linguistic (the other 95% consisting of tone, pitch, paralinguistics (physical actions) etc.), and you have on your hands a form of communication that is as open to interpretation as anything else (without even taking into account the general ambiguity that the Bible is written in).

I'm not suggesting that what you believe is wrong, far from it. But you must understand that any text can be interpreted differently, even without trying. One person could read the Bible and read it completely differently to another man. I personally believe that the Bible is written metaphorically, and clearly many people believe that it is written literally, and that's fine, I'm not here to judge what you believe as we both read from the same book, simply with different eyes.

It is not my place to judge what you believe, nor is it your place to judge what I believe. It is God's.

When I die, God will judge me, and if my beliefs were wrong, I shall accept the consequences, but I believe that I am a good person, and I live my life in the service of others. I will continue to live this life whilst in praise of God, and should it not be enough, well then that's my problem, and I'll deal with it.

[Paul Jeffery]

Re: Afternoon

So you're saying that an English translation of God's word is truer than the original Hebrew texts? Many things become lost in translation in anything.

Oh, and as for interpretation, no matter what, people will read things differently, it's impossible for everyone to read something the same way. A good example was given to us in one of my law lessons recently. Everyone knows this classic nursery rhyme:
Georgie Porgie, pudding and pie,
Kissed the girls and made them cry,
When the boys came out to play,
Georgie Porgie ran away.

Everyone's heard it a thousand times, but ask yourself this:
Is Georgie a boy or a girl?
'Georgie' is assumed to be a variation on the name 'George', and yet it can also be a girl's name, and is commonly used as it. Now let's just assume for a moment that Georgie is a girl. Now read it again. Now ask yourself:
Is Georgie a lesbian?
She kissed the girls, but it doesn't say that it was sexual, so she could also be heterosexual. Now let's go back on ourselves and say that Georgie is in fact a boy. He kissed the girls, they cried and when the boys arrived, he ran away. But did he run away from the boys or with the boys? If he ran away with the boys, is he gay? Also, notice the line "When the boys came out to play". To 'come out' is a euphemism for admitting that one is homosexual. So let's imagine these boys have 'come out'. Is Georgie running away with them? Or is he running away from them because he is afraid of them?

Now before you start harking questions to relevance, I am merely using this as an example. The Bible is the written word of God, but it is still written word. Take into account that only 5% of human communication is linguistic (the other 95% consisting of tone, pitch, paralinguistics (physical actions) etc.), and you have on your hands a form of communication that is as open to interpretation as anything else (without even taking into account the general ambiguity that the Bible is written in).

I'm not suggesting that what you believe is wrong, far from it. But you must understand that any text can be interpreted differently, even without trying. One person could read the Bible and read it completely differently to another man. I personally believe that the Bible is written metaphorically, and clearly many people believe that it is written literally, and that's fine, I'm not here to judge what you believe as we both read from the same book, simply with different eyes.

It is not my place to judge what you believe, nor is it your place to judge what I believe. It is God's.

When I die, God will judge me, and if my beliefs were wrong, I shall accept the consequences, but I believe that I am a good person, and I live my life in the service of others. I will continue to live this life whilst in praise of God, and should it not be enough, well then that's my problem, and I'll deal with it.

Well, I must say, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone use a nursery rhyme character of ambiguous gender/sexual orientation as justification for having their way with the Bible's meanings. The only way to "interpret" the one correct Bible (KJV1611) is as it is written. God never said anything about a single word of it being intended as "metaphorical" or to be understood as anything other than literally true as it was inspired by Him to be written. Kindly cite an example of something from the Bible with a meaning that could be understood other than as it was inspired by Him to be written.

I think it's clear enough from your first argument that you intend to build a case for being acceptably homosexual in the eyes of Jesus. Of course, we all know such an effort is pure folly. The coals are being stoked for you now.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Afternoon

Many things become lost in translation in anything.

Do you agree with me that God is omnipotent? If so, you'll surely also agree that He can preserve His Word, as He promised:

Psalm 12:6-7: The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Oh, and as for interpretation, no matter what, people will read things differently, it's impossible for everyone to read something the same way. A good example was given to us in one of my law lessons recently. Everyone knows this classic nursery rhyme:

Instead of nursery rhymes, here's a better analogy. Suppose that you're reading the maintenance manual for your car, and you come to the part on regular oil changes. Do you assume that it's a requirement only for people who lived before the most recent model change? Do you figure that it needs to be "interpreted correctly," "read allegorically," or "read in context"? Do you seek a diversity of opinions on whether you should use motor oil, olive oil, or linseed oil? Do you trust that no matter what you do, surely a just and merciful car company will still honor the warranty? No, you do not. You follow the literal reading of the maintenance manual. So it is with the Holy King James Bible, the maintenance manual for your immortal soul.

[Paul Jeffery]

Re: Afternoon

Instead of nursery rhymes, here's a better analogy. Suppose that you're reading the maintenance manual for your car, and you come to the part on regular oil changes. Do you assume that it's a requirement only for people who lived before the most recent model change? Do you figure that it needs to be "interpreted correctly," "read allegorically," or "read in context"? Do you seek a diversity of opinions on whether you should use motor oil, olive oil, or linseed oil? Do you trust that no matter what you do, surely a just and merciful car company will still honor the warranty? No, you do not. You follow the literal reading of the maintenance manual. So it is with the Holy King James Bible, the maintenance manual for your immortal soul.

See Mop? This is why Pastor Peters is a pastor and you, at only 18 years old, should open yourself to leaning from Godly men like him. We grow so soon old and so late wise, Mop. I know it's tough when you're 18 and still know everything, but trust me; Pastor Peters' analogy couldn't be more perfect. There is a reason you found your way to this forum. Don't brush it off as coincidence. Jesus wants you here.

[The True Mop]

Re: Afternoon

Well, I must say, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone use a nursery rhyme character of ambiguous gender/sexual orientation as justification for having their way with the Bible's meanings. The only way to "interpret" the one correct Bible (KJV1611) is as it is written. God never said anything about a single word of it being intended as "metaphorical" or to be understood as anything other than literally true as it was inspired by Him to be written. Kindly cite an example of something from the Bible with a meaning that could be understood other than as it was inspired by Him to be written.

I think it's clear enough from your first argument that you intend to build a case for being acceptably homosexual in the eyes of Jesus. Of course, we all know such an effort is pure folly. The coals are being stoked for you now.

For your information, no I am not homosexual, but I do believe that the gay community have every right that we do. Also, if you're going to start psychoanalysis, I may join in, which you don't want.

Tell me, what is it that makes someone gay? I'll tell you. It's a glad in the brain. It is present in both men and women, and it controls hormone activity. In men, it is twice the size than that of women, and this is because testosterone overrides the feminine and maternal instincts of women and doubles the size of the gland. There is a problem, however, being that the human body is such a complex organism, it is possible that the pregnant mother's oestrogen causes the levels of testosterone in a male child to decrease, meaning that the glad does not completely double to its correct size. This causes some of the feminine instincts to remain active, and some masculine drives to be absent. These can include female-like bodies (e.g. slender torso, wide hips, narrow shoulders) and attraction to men. This is similar in lesbianism, but that the foetus has been exposed to testosterone somehow (women absorb a small trace of the chemical during unprotected intercourse, which can then be absorbed by the child).

I don't know whether you're simply going to scoff at these comments (though I'd gladly put money on the fact that you will), but homosexuality is not a state of mind, it is a physical, biological state, and cannot be altered.

As for an example of a metaphorical Bible exert, I'm going to use the classic
tale of the loaves and the fish. It is written that Jesus had five loaves and two fish, and he had to feed five thousand people. For a start, five thousand is a very precise figure, and feeding that amount of people one at a time would take days. It is far more plausible that it was merely a large group of people, simply not THAT large. He had five loaves and two fish to feed this large group of people. I read it as though it were simply a small amount of food to feed a group of many, and that the people wanted more than this to satiate themselves, so they began fighting and wanting more than their neighbours. Jesus showed that that you do not need a lot of food to satisfy yourself, and shared the food equally between them. This taught them that if everyone is equal, and if things are shared equally, no one comes to harm. If everyone shares and is equal with their amount, then everyone can live in harmony.
- This interpretation is true to the Bible, and is perfectly plausible in science.

Oh, and Pastor Isaac Peters, you're merely proving my point further. You read it and you understand it means engine oil, but someone who has never used nor seen a car before but has say been in catering for many years, would automatically assume it meant some other form of oil (olive oil, for example).

All of this is simply logic, and if you are ignoring logic when thinking about your faith, you are a fool.

[The True Mop]

Re: Afternoon

Oh, and Paul Jeffery? I found this forum because my friend linked me to it in a state of horror and disgust at your prejudicial views. And yes, he is gay before you ask.

[Palmer C. Eldrich]

Re: Afternoon

I scoff at you. Pay up, kid.

[The True Mop]

Re: One quick question for the those who call us "hateful"

There's just one little flaw in your post...

The Bible isn't proven. Every spiritual aspect of it is faith. BLIND faith.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with faith at all, but it is just that. Faith.

The definition of faith is:

"A strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."

Faith does not need proof, but because of this, it is not confirmed to be correct. There is no evidence to support an afterlife, there is no evidence to support evolution or creationism, there is no evidence to support the existence of God.

That's right, I said it. I'm a Christian who is open to the idea that everything I believe is bollocks. I personally believe it to be true, but there is no physical evidence to support any of it, so it is all speculation.

I believe that the reason there is a lack of evidence is because if everyone were completely aware of God's existence, they would rely upon Him for everything, and everything would be demanded of Him, yet as soon as He were to deliver, His actions would have negative consequences. Simply put, God does not interfere with our lives because doing so would make everyone want him to interfere with theirs, and if God were to provide all that we need, we would always wish for more. If he did not, people would rise against him.

[Jeb Stuart Thurmond]

Re: One quick question for the those who call us "hateful"

there is no physical evidence to support any of it, so it is all speculation.

So "thou shalt not kill" is just speculation for you? That means you find nothing wrong with killing my child if they get in your way.

Your gobbledegook doesn't hide your atheism.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Afternoon

I don't know whether you're simply going to scoff at these comments (though I'd gladly put money on the fact that you will), but homosexuality is not a state of mind, it is a physical, biological state, and cannot be altered.

What a load of horse droppings. The Bible is very clear on homosexuality. I don't see how you can even pretend to justify it with lies from fairy scientists.

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Maybe at this point you will try to whine that those are Old Testament verses.

1 Corinthians 6:9 (YLT)
have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,

This verse clearly states that not only do homosexuals deserve death so do those who support them.

Romans 1:26-27,32
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Tell me, friend. Where is the metaphor or ambiguity in those verses?

As for an example of a metaphorical Bible exert, I'm going to use the classic
tale of the loaves and the fish. It is written that Jesus had five loaves and two fish, and he had to feed five thousand people. For a start, five thousand is a very precise figure, and feeding that amount of people one at a time would take days.

Wow, the shocking ignorance in that statement!
I have fed that many people many a Sunday at our prayer breakfasts.

It is far more plausible that it was merely a large group of people, simply not THAT large. He had five loaves and two fish to feed this large group of people. I read it as though it were simply a small amount of food to feed a group of many, and that the people wanted more than this to satiate themselves, so they began fighting and wanting more than their neighbours. Jesus showed that that you do not need a lot of food to satisfy yourself, and shared the food equally between them. This taught them that if everyone is equal, and if things are shared equally, no one comes to harm. If everyone shares and is equal with their amount, then everyone can live in harmony.

Now you're denying Jesus's miracles?
You have just earned an infraction for that. You're no Christian.

Oh, and Pastor Isaac Peters, you're merely proving my point further. You read it and you understand it means engine oil, but someone who has never used nor seen a car before but has say been in catering for many years, would automatically assume it meant some other form of oil (olive oil, for example).

Thank you for proving the Pastor's point.
Do you really think manufacturer is still going to honor the warranty? Oh dealership. I read it wrong! I put olive oil in my car. Can I still have another one?

What do you think they will say?

All of this is simply logic, and if you are ignoring logic when thinking about your faith, you are a fool.

As if you weren't already hellbound, you just earned a spot in the fast lane to the fieriest part of hell.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I can't wait to see you burn.