[Meek and Humble]

Re: introduction

Hi !

btw, i talked to a Brother of the Congregation of Christian Brothers at St Mary's Cathedral yesterday. what happened was approximately as follows (sorry for imperfect wording and imperfect recollection):

i started of by telling him that i was one of the most horrible people he'll ever meet, not only because of my personal sins but because of the incredible amount of ideas of the reformation i had.

i then spent ages discussing with him about all this theological knowledge and these experiences i had. he basically listened and told me that when he reads Scripture, he finds new intepretations as he gets older.

he talked about Mother Teresa and how when she started, many people initially wanted the government to stop her ministry. but when the government replied - sure we'll ask her to leave, as long as you are prepared to provide her services. they then kept quiet.

he then asked me to return to basics and said - what do you really feel ?

i replied: God loves me, i love God, i love others.

he asked me if i feared dying.

and i said - no, because God loves me.

i then asked him if i should remain part of the reformation or join the Catholic Church.

he replied - go where the Holy Spirit guides you.

and interestingly enough, i feel it's to talk to him again and maybe attend St Mary's in the future!

anyway, best wishes and take care everyone !

please pray for me =)

Boy, you just keep getting stupider and stupider? Don't you know the Pope is the Anti-Christ, the Roman Church the Whore of Babylon, and ALL Catholics go to hell?!

Why Catholics are Going to Hell

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

Hi !

btw, i talked to a Brother of the Congregation of Christian Brothers at St Mary's Cathedral yesterday. what happened was approximately as follows (sorry for imperfect wording and imperfect recollection):

i started of by telling him that i was one of the most horrible people he'll ever meet, not only because of my personal sins but because of the incredible amount of ideas of the reformation i had.

i then spent ages discussing with him about all this theological knowledge and these experiences i had. he basically listened and told me that when he reads Scripture, he finds new intepretations as he gets older.

he talked about Mother Teresa and how when she started, many people initially wanted the government to stop her ministry. but when the government replied - sure we'll ask her to leave, as long as you are prepared to provide her services. they then kept quiet.

he then asked me to return to basics and said - what do you really feel ?

i replied: God loves me, i love God, i love others.

he asked me if i feared dying.

and i said - no, because God loves me.

i then asked him if i should remain part of the reformation or join the Catholic Church.

he replied - go where the Holy Spirit guides you.

and interestingly enough, i feel it's to talk to him again and maybe attend St Mary's in the future!

anyway, best wishes and take care everyone !

please pray for me =)

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

The only way to get cleared is to receive absolution from a priest through confession, or perhaps a plenary indulgence for venial sins.

hi !

i've committed an enourmous ... number of sins, and i'm so confused, stupid and foolish ... it's my fault !

i've read so many horrible things, written so many horrible things and said so many horrible things. i'm an exceedingly, extremely horrible person !

and yet, "Salvation is of the LORD"
somehow i keep on remembering "God is love"
somehow i just wish to keep on repenting and turning to God.

these are my confessions:
please pass all my writings to every priest you know and tell them i acknowledge there is only one universal (Catholic) Church. but even if you don't, i'll still believe a priest will one day read them. also, in my imperfect, stupid understanding, i believe God can see my confessions... i hope all the Saints can see my confessions and pray for me.

i'm really really really sorry for all the sins i have ever done in the past, present and future !

somehow, i recognise two possibilities:

God and eternal life
or
Worldly Knowledge & Death

i believe
"Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body"
"Jesus is Lord"

i believe i'm somehow (even though extremely imperfectly united) to the one Church of God.

if i'm not in the one Church of God, may God place me there
and
if i'm already in the one Church of God, may God forever keep me with Him.

"Salvation is of the LORD"

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

You are a Christian, but not a full one

To become a full member, you do have to engage in some of the following:

hi !

i appreciate your advice and take care !

yes, i would like to discuss with a priest to find out more information.

(from http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...cs/ap0097.html)

"Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers mistakenly affixed to them"

This book is a personal witness, a plain account of the way in which a Protestant came to feel himself obliged in conscience to give his adherence to the Catholic Church. No sentiment of revulsion turned him from the religion fostered in him by a Protestant upbringing followed by several years in the ministry. The fact is, he has never rejected it. It was his desire to explore its depths, its full scope, that led him, step by step, to a genuinely spiritual movement stemming from the teachings of the Gospel, and Protestantism as an institution, or rather complexus of institutions, hostile to one another as well as to the Catholic Church. The study of this conflict brought him to detect the fatal error which drove the spiritual movement of Protestantism out of the one Church. He saw the necessity of returning to that Church, not in order to reject any of the positive Christian elements of his religious life, but to enable them, at last, to develop without hindrance.

The writer, who carved out his way step by step, or rather, saw it opening before his eyes, hopes now to help along those who are still where he started. In addition, he would like to show those he has rejoined how a little more understanding of the others, above all a greater fidelity to their own gift, could help their 'separated brethren' to receive it in their turn. In this hope he offers his book to all who wish to be faithful to the truth, first, to the Word of God, but also to the truth of men as they are, not as our prejudices and habits impel us to see them.

Bouyer, then, addresses both Protestants and Catholics. To the Protestants, he says, in effect, "It is fidelity to our Protestant principles, properly understood, that has led me into the Catholic Church." To the Catholics, he says, "Protestantism isn't as antithetical to the Catholic Faith as you suppose. It has positive principles, as well as negative ones. Its positive principles, properly understood, belong to the Catholic Tradition, which we Catholics can see if we approach Protestantism with a bit of understanding and openness."
Bouyer's argument is that the Reformation's main principle was essentially Catholic: "Luther's basic intuition, on which Protestantism continuously draws for its abiding vitality, so far from being hard to reconcile with Catholic tradition, or inconsistent with the teaching of the Apostles, was a return to the clearest elements of their teaching, and in the most direct line of that tradition."

1. Sola Gratia.What was the Reformation's main principle? Not, as many Catholics and even some Protestants think, "private judgment" in religion. According to Bouyer, "the true fundamental principle of Protestantism is the gratuitousness of salvation" — sola gratia. He writes, "In the view of Luther, as well as of all those faithful to his essential teaching, man without grace can, strictly speaking, do nothing of the slightest value for salvation. He can neither dispose himself for it, nor work for it in any independent fashion. Even his acceptance of grace is the work of grace. To Luther and his authentic followers, justifying faith . . . is quite certainly, the first and most fundamental grace."


Bouyer then shows how, contrary to what many Protestants and some Catholics think, salvation sola gratia is also Catholic teaching. He underscores the point to any Catholics who might think otherwise:
"If, then, any Catholic — and there would seem to be many such these days — whose first impulse is to reject the idea that man, without grace, can do nothing towards his salvation, that he cannot even accept the grace offered except by a previous grace, that the very faith which acknowledges the need of grace is a purely gratuitous gift, he would do well to attend closely to the texts we are about to quote."
In other words, "Listen up, Catholics!"
Bouyer quotes, at length, from the Second Council of Orange (529), the teaching of which was confirmed by Pope Boniface II as de fide or part of the Church's faith. The Council asserted that salvation is the work of God's grace and that even the beginning of faith or the consent to saving grace is itself the result of grace. By our natural powers, we can neither think as we ought nor choose any good pertaining to salvation. We can only do so by the illumination and impulse of the Holy Spirit.

2. Sola Fide.So much for sola gratia. But what about the other half of the Reformation principle regarding salvation, the claim that justification by grace comes through faith alone (sola fide) ?
According to Bouyer, the main thrust of the doctrine of sola fide was to affirm that justification was wholly the work of God and to deny any positive human contribution apart from grace. Faith was understood as man's grace-enabled, grace-inspired, grace-completed response to God's saving initiative in Jesus Christ. What the Reformation initially sought to affirm, says Bouyer, was that such a response is purely God's gift to man, with man contributing nothing of his own to receive salvation.

3. Sola Scriptura. Melanchthon, the colleague of Luther, called justification sola gratia, sola fide the "Material Principle" of the Reformation. But there was also the Formal Principle, the doctrine of sola Scriptura or what Bouyer calls the sovereign authority of Scripture. What of that?
Here, too, says Bouyer, the Reformation's core positive principle is correct. The Word of God, rather than a human word, must govern the life of the Christian and of the Church. And the Word of God is found in a unique and supreme form in the Bible, the inspired Word of God. The inspiration of the Bible means that God is the primary author of Scripture. Since we can say that about no other writing or formal expression of the Church's Faith, not even conciliar or papal definitions of faith, the Bible alone is the Word of God in this sense and therefore it possesses a unique authority.

Yet the supremacy of the Bible does not imply an opposition between it and the authority of the Church or Tradition, as certain negative principles adopted by the Reformers implied. Furthermore, the biblical spirituality of Protestantism, properly understood, is in keeping with the best traditions of Catholic spirituality, especially those of the Fathers and the great medieval theologians. Through Scripture, God speaks to us today, offering a living Word to guide our lives in Christ.

Bouyer says that both Protestants and Catholics have responsibilities here. Protestants must investigate their roots and consider whether the negative elements of the Reformation, such as extrinsic justification and the rejection of a definitive Church teaching authority and Tradition, are necessary to uphold the positive principles of sola gratia and the supremacy of Scripture. If not, then how is continued separation from the Catholic Church justified ?


Only if Catholics are fully Catholic — which includes fully embracing the positive principles of the Reformation that Bouyer insists are essentially Catholic — can they "legitimately aspire to show and prepare their separated brethren the way to a return which would be for them not a denial but a fulfillment."
Today, as in the sixteenth century, the burden rests with us Catholics. We must live, by God's abundant grace, up to our high calling in Christ Jesus. And in this way, show our Protestant brethren that their own positive principles are properly expressed only in the Catholic Church.

* * *

i was so shocked to read this today ... it is almost exactly how i think and essentially reflects what i wrote in my previous posts.

from my observation, the Roman Catholic Church of today safeguards the positive principles of the Reformation !

i'm from the Reformation and imperfectly united to the Catholic Church. i'll love to shake hands with Catholic Christians and proclaim the beauty of the Three Theological Values to everyone of the world.

[James Peter]

Re: introduction

Below are the thoughts of a Catholic Christian:

(council of Florence in the 8th session ):
"But in case of necessity not only a priest or a deacon, but even a lay man or a woman, even a pagan and a heretic, can baptize provided he or she uses the form of the church and intends to do what the church does. The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God. "

You have not proven to have had a special case of necessity, and you should read the rest of the paragraph. If you sin after baptism (and we all do) you won't go to heaven. The only way to get cleared is to receive absolution from a priest through confession, or perhaps a plenary indulgence for venial sins.

If you look at the Catechism you can see that it also agrees that all baptized are connected to the church.

855 The Church's mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity.357 Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects."358

You are joined to us in a sense, but you still need to enter full communion with the Mother Church.

1259

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

A catechumen is someone who is actively trying to become a full member of the Catholic Church, not a member of a "reformation" church. They go to classes to learn the catechism, attend Catholic mass every week, and are working to receiving the Sacraments.

Quote by another catholic:

The protestant radio minister raised an objection to the Catholic Church that is common. The Church has made statements to the effect that "there is no salvation outside the Church." But the teaching is not meant to imply that only those who are practicing members of the Roman Catholic Church will go to Heaven.

Instead, and I am summarizing for brevity, the Church teaches that those who are validly baptised are in fact united to the one holy catholic and apostolic Church - although imperfectly united - and, therefore, their salvation does not come from "outside" of the Church. Most protestant baptisms are considered valid in form.

A Catholic would need perfect contrition outside the Sacrament of Confession for their mortal sins to be forgiven. Imperfect contrition is not enough outside the Sacrament for the forgiveness of mortal sins. Within the Sacrament, imperfect contrition will suffice:

1453 The contrition called "imperfect" (or "attrition") is also a
gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the
consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and
the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such
a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under
the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental
absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot
obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain
forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance
CCC

Quote from His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI:

"It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."

In the new document and an accompanying commentary, which were released as the pope vacations here in Italy's Dolomite mountains, the Vatican repeated that position.

"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles."

from guidance by God, my imperfect intepretation from Scripture, the new advent encyclopedia and the thoughts of other Catholic Christians:

You know, you could get a perfect interpretation of the Scripture if you listened to a Priest;

- i've already been baptised, therefore it appears the Catholic Church would welcome me as a fellow Christian, even if i never step foot inside a Catholic Church building again.

You are a Christian, but not a full one (I assume you weren't baptized in a Catholic Church. If you were, then you can ignore the following). You are what we would call a "Candidate". To become a full member, you do have to engage in some of the following:

- Expected attendance at Mass every Sunday, and on Holy Days of Obligation, unless sick, etc.

- Abstaining from meat on certain Fridays, and fasting during certain days of the year

- Not using birth control (birth spacing for just reasons is permitted)

- Confessing mortal sins before receiving communion

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

Yes, there is only one Church. Protestants are not a part of it.

Below are the thoughts of a Catholic Christian:

(council of Florence in the 8th session ):
"But in case of necessity not only a priest or a deacon, but even a lay man or a woman, even a pagan and a heretic, can baptize provided he or she uses the form of the church and intends to do what the church does. The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God. "

If you look at the Catechism you can see that it also agrees that all baptized are connected to the church.

855 The Church's mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity.357 Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects."358

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.



Quote by another catholic:

The protestant radio minister raised an objection to the Catholic Church that is common. The Church has made statements to the effect that "there is no salvation outside the Church." But the teaching is not meant to imply that only those who are practicing members of the Roman Catholic Church will go to Heaven.

Instead, and I am summarizing for brevity, the Church teaches that those who are validly baptised are in fact united to the one holy catholic and apostolic Church - although imperfectly united - and, therefore, their salvation does not come from "outside" of the Church. Most protestant baptisms are considered valid in form.


* * *

from guidance by God, my imperfect intepretation from Scripture, the new advent encyclopedia and the thoughts of other Catholic Christians:

- i'll respect Catholics Christians. i will avoid protesting against Catholic traditions (after all, Catholic traditions are based upon Scripture).

- at present from what i know, i'll even be happy to say the Pope can be considered the chief pastor of the one Church.

- i've already been baptised, therefore it appears the Catholic Church would welcome me as a fellow Christian, even if i never step foot inside a Catholic Church building again.

- i'll try to always refrain from using the word protestant (apologies), and instead refer myself from the Reformation.

- i'll try to avoid discussing anything that contradicts the Catholic Church traditions.

- from what i read, Catholic Christians who understand their traditions and Scripture are Christians i really respect.

that is, i'm from the Reformation and imperfectly united to the Catholic Church. i'll love to shake hands with Catholic Christians and proclaim the beauty of the Three Theological Values to everyone of the world.

[James Peter]

Re: introduction

honestly, i may be confused, i might use the wrong language but i understand the foolishness of refusing to be part of the one Universal (Catholic) Church. there is absolutely no way i will refuse to be part of the one Church.

Great, so you submit to the authority of God's vicar, the Pope?

"Christ is the head of the church"

Yes, and Jesus made the Catholic Church its foundation.

Matthew 16:18-19 "And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shalt be loosed in heaven." (KJV)

you are also correct in saying i should drop the line "protestant". i used this "secular english name" without thinking ... but upon reflection, the line "protestant Christian" is an oxymormon. i'm again very sorry for using this "secular name". i do not protest with the traditions of the one Church.

Really? Because your carrying on about the 5 solas and predestination really implied otherwise.

you are correct, i avoid discussing the topic of free will because i'm extremely uncomfortable with all the different ideas going around. i do not protest against the new advent encyclopedia's article on free will.

Great. Now what do you think of their article on transubstantiation?

i honestly simply don't understand any teaching about free will nor do i understand your intepretation of (Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio)

Interpretation? I just quoted what it plainly says.

For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is 'the all-embracing means of salvation,' that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation

Protestants are on the right general path, but they are not getting to salvation without the Roman Catholic Church.

i believe i'm already in the one universal Church (although very barely so), from reading the new advent encyclopedia and i'm very sorry if i have misintepretated that.

It's okay, we all make mistakes.

also, i'm just so confused. when i read the new advent encyclopedia, it suggests that a person should not partake in the sacraments without proper understanding.

No, you shouldn't. What you SHOULD do is get the proper understanding. Most Priests will be happy to listen to your problems and get you initiated as a full member.

i've been baptised already - what therefore, does it mean to be part of the one true Church ?

Questioning any of the teachings of the Catholic church makes you a heretic. What you need to do is go to Confession.

what i don't understand is this:

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

That man died before Christ's new covenant was sealed by His death and resurrection.

please pray for me - i'm seriously confused.

Of course, friend.

Prayer for Purity

Jesus, Lover of chastity,
Mary, Mother most pure,
and Joseph, chaste guardian of the Virgin,
to you I come at this hour,
begging you to plead with God for me.
I earnestly wish to be pure in thought,
word and deed in imitation of your own holy purity.

Obtain for me, then,
a deep sense of modesty
which will be reflected in my external conduct.
Protect my eyes, the windows of my soul,
from anything that might dim the luster of a heart
that must mirror only Christlike purity.

And when the "Bread of Angels becomes the Bread of me"
in my heart at Holy Communion,
seal it forever against the suggestions of sinful pleasures.

Heart of Jesus, Fount of all purity,
have mercy on us.

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

Yes, there is only one Church.

hi ! thanks for the post, which is very insightful.

honestly, i may be confused, i might use the wrong language but i understand the foolishness of refusing to be part of the one Universal (Catholic) Church. there is absolutely no way i will refuse to be part of the one Church.

"Christ is the head of the church"

you are also correct in saying i should drop the line "protestant". i used this "secular english name" without thinking ... but upon reflection, the line "protestant Christian" is an oxymoron. i'm again very sorry for using this "secular name". i do not protest with the traditions of the one Church.

you are correct, i avoid discussing the topic of free will because i'm extremely uncomfortable with all the different ideas going around. i do not protest against the new advent encyclopedia's article on free will.

i honestly simply don't understand any teaching about free will nor do i understand your intepretation of (Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio)

i believe i'm already in the one universal Church (although very barely so), from reading the new advent encyclopedia and i'm very sorry if i have misintepretated that.

also, i'm just so confused. when i read the new advent encyclopedia, it suggests that a person should not partake in the sacraments without proper understanding.

i've been baptised already - what therefore, does it mean to be part of the one true Church ?

what i don't understand is this:

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

please pray for me - i'm seriously confused.

best wishes !

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: introduction

I thought you were in prison, Jimmy. Did they let you out early for being the warden's personal bitch?

[James Peter]

Re: introduction

in my view, there is only one Church.

Yes, there is only one Church. Protestants are not a part of it.

Don't Call Protestants Christians

note that i specifically avoid discussing free will ...

Is that because you know it is a ridiculous doctrine of the devil, which nobody can logically defend?

i prefer not to attend a Catholic Church service, as it is very difficult for me to partake in the Sacraments in conscience.

Well, then you are choosing damnation. Salvation is through the sacraments.

"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church"

(Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio)

The church tackles this apparent conflict in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Items 846 and 847 attempt to harmonize ancient and recent statements on salvation of non-Christians.
Section 846 by making the following points:
In ancient times, the Church Fathers often said that "Outside the [Catholic] Church there is no salvation." The church has always taught that: "...all salvation comes from Christ...through the [Catholic] Church..." "...the [Catholic] Church...is necessary for salvation..." "...Christ ...affirmed...the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door." Those who realize the Church's role and who "refuse either to enter it or to remain in it" cannot achieve salvation or attain Heaven after death. This is what various popes meant when they said that there was no salvation outside the church. Section 847 states that:
The above "...is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church." "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation." 9 This attempt at harmonizing leaves many Anglicans, Muslims, Protestants, Wiccans, and followers of other religions in an awkward situation. Many know of the claims of the Roman Catholic Church and reject them in favor of the teachings of other groups. That would seem to eliminate any possibility for them to be saved and attain Heaven, according to the Roman Catholic Church.

whenever you meet those in the Reformation, please tell them:
God, Scripture, Grace, believes (Faith & Hope) and Love, Glory

I tell that to non-Christians. Protestants already know that part. I teach them what they need to know.

Pope Innocent III: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.

Pope Boniface VIII: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." From his Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.

Pope Eugene IV: "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." From his Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Protestant denominations and the Anglican Communion would presumably fall under the category of "heretics and schismatics." Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, etc would presumably be considered "Pagans."



The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), deals with the relationship of the Roman Catholic Church to non-Catholics in Topics 839 to 845. 9 Some points are:
839: Followers of other religions are referred to as "Those who have not yet received the gospel..." The implication is that they will eventually become united with the Roman Catholic Church. 839 to 841: The Roman Catholic Church has a special relationship to Jews and Muslims because of the common reverence for the patriarch Abraham. 843: Other religions contain "goodness and truth" which are "a preparation for the Gospel." 845: God wishes to "reunite all his children," of all religions who are "scattered and led astray by sin...together into" the Catholic Church." 'Dominus Iesus' on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church" was published on 2000-AUG-6 by Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It was released on SEP-5. The document had been ratified and confirmed by the Pope John Paul II on JUN-16 "with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority." 10 The document appears to have been triggered by the growth in acceptance of "relativistic theories which seek to justify religious pluralism." 12 It states that: "The full revelation of divine truth is given" in the "mystery of Jesus Christ." No additional revelation is expected in the future. Elements of Christianity were placed in other religions by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only savior of mankind. All who are saved achieve this status through the Roman Catholic Church.

"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church"

Why not post the paragraph that is RIGHT AFTER THIS!

"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is 'the all-embracing means of salvation,' that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God."

lets shake hands and spread the Gospel to others.

You are spreading a false gospel.

Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

Hi. It's good to see you have a healthy respect and admiration for the church Jesus Christ founded on earth. Perhaps it is time you shake off the shackles of the rebellious reformers and go back to only real church?

hi !

thanks for your response. apologies by the way:

my position can be described as follows:

"Happily a new spirit has lately come over these dissentient Christians, numbers of whom are becoming keenly sensitive to the paralyzing effects of division and an active reunion movement has arisen which, If far from being as widespread and solid as one could wish, is at least cherished on all sides by devout minds."

(New Advent Encyclopedia)

i studied a lot about traditions of the catholic church and concluded that there are many references to Scripture. these days i just quote certain Scripture passages and write about my own experiences.

whenever i meet a catholic Christian, i'll just shake hands with them and tell them to focus on the theological virtues "faith, hope, charity".
i'll tell them how much i respect st jehanne d'arc.

whenever i meet a protestant Christian, i'll tell them:
"Salvation is of the LORD", believe (faith & hope), love (agape)


in my view, there is only one Church.

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

"Christendom includes not merely the Catholic Church, but, together with it, the many other religious communions which have either directly or indirectly, separated from it, and yet, although in conflict both with it and among themselves as to various points of doctrine and practice agree with it in this: that they look up to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Founder of their Faith, and claim to make His teaching the rule of their lives"

(New Advent Encyclopedia)


1) God
"The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another."

(New Advent Encyclopedia)

2) Scripture
"In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God"

(Cathechism of the Catholic Church)

of course, this is closer to Scripture than others who murder, abuse others and refuse to love - and claim "relativism & intepretation"


3) Grace
"It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God."

"Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins."

(New Advent Encyclopedia)

note that i specifically avoid discussing free will ...

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!"


4) Theological Virtues
Faith, Hope, Charity

or

In response to the grace of God - believes (faith & hope), love (agape)

"The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength"

"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"


5) God's Glory
The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created. God made us "to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace"

(Cathechism of the Catholic Church, quoting Ephesians 1)


* * *

i prefer not to attend a Catholic Church service, as it is very difficult for me to partake in the Sacraments in conscience.

the position of the Catholic Church is that:

"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church"

(Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio)


whenever you meet those in the Reformation, please tell them:
God, Scripture, Grace, believes (Faith & Hope) and Love, Glory

please tell them the Catholic Church's official position on those in the Reformation.


lets shake hands and spread the Gospel to others.

one of the most powerful testimonies is when a Catholic Christian, a Protestant Christian and a Messianic Jew all say:

"God is love"
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

[James Peter]

Re: introduction

1) "if the definition of sola fide is faith alone, then charity comes afterward, we catholics basically agree with the same thing. It is just that protestants are defining it differently"

(apolonio latar - seminarian of the priestly fraternity of the missionaries of st. charles borromeo).

this is one of the most fantastic things i've ever read.

2) DEUS CARITAS EST

(excerpts)

"We have come to believe in God's love: in these words the Christian can express the fundamental decision of his life. Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction."

"Following the example given in the parable of the Good Samaritan, Christian charity is first of all the simple response to immediate needs and specific situations: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for and healing the sick, visiting those in prison, etc"

"Yet at the same time caritas- agape extends beyond the frontiers of the Church. The parable of the Good Samaritan remains as a standard which imposes universal love towards the needy whom we encounter “by chance” (cf. Lk 10:31), whoever they may be"

if i presented the above to those in the "reformation" that understand "grace", "faith", "hope", "love (agape)", "predestination", they would probably say "what fantastic quotes !"

3) "In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God"
(cathechism of the catholic church)

4) i read about st jehanne d'arc and st augustine (among others) and i think it's fantastic when people address them by the title of saints. however, please worship God only !

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. "

5) whenever i meet a person from the catholic church who really understands both the catholic traditions and Scripture, i would like to shake their hands and engage in a healthy discussion.

from my imperfect understanding of history, many in the reformation were actually from the catholic church - and they often referred to st augustine (and hence catholic tradition).

take care there and best wishes!

Hi. It's good to see you have a healthy respect and admiration for the church Jesus Christ founded on earth. Perhaps it is time you shake off the shackles of the rebellious reformers and go back to only real church? http://catholic-converts.blogspot.com/

Please note, the passages you quote from says nothing about predestination or Sola Fide in the sense that Protestants mean them. Also, we don't worship saints.

I'm glad at least you admit Sola Scripture is wrong. Will you be deleting that from your list of "Solas" from now on?

"Grace Alone", isn't found in the Bible either. Catholics would agree that we are indeed saved by grace, which is a free gift from God. Where we differ is the method of how we receive that grace. The Catholic Church regularly dispenses sanctifying grace through the sacraments. The protestants believe that God just gives them grace whenever He wills it, sacraments or not. The Catholic version of this one would be that we are saved by grace, which increases our faith, and leads us to do good works as a very necessary fruit of our faith.

"Christ Alone", also sounds great. Who could argue with the fact that we are saved by Christ alone? The problem with this is that the 3rd person of the Blessed Trinity, the Holy Spirit, also plays a HUGE role in our salvation. According to the bible, we are temples to the Holy Spirit. Peter and the other apostles all followed Jesus and ate with him, talked with him, and tried to follow him. It wasn't until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon them that they received power (Acts 1:8). Catholics receive the Holy Spirit at Confirmation, and can receive Him again and again through the laying on of hands by charismatics (to reinvigorate your faith). And what about the role that the Communion of Saints plays in our salvation? They lead us to Christ, as do our parents, our friends, and our fellow Catholics. The whole problem with this particular sola is that it isolates us into a "Me and Jesus" scenario, where I don't really need a Church or a family telling me what to do. And that is so wrong. Jesus set up His Church for a reason, to be His Kingdom on earth. And this sola allows for no glory to God our Father, who we pray to each and every time we say the "Our Father" prayer.

"Glory to God Alone". This one also sounds like a winner. However, there is one problem with it. Jesus Himself said in John 17:22 that He gave His glory to his apostles (at the Last Supper, when He gave them the Eucharist). And while none of the apostles' lives or works will save us in and of themselves, they are indeed one with Christ (1 Corinthians 6:17) and they are partakers in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). It really is okay to venerate the saints, which is not the same glory and honor we need to give to Christ. A lot of protestants confuse veneration of the saints with glory to God. Mention the Communion of Saints to a Protestant who says the Apostles' Creed every Sunday, and you will usually get a blank stare back. In other words, most Protestants who recite the Apostles' Creed say they believe in the Communion of Saints, but they do not know what it means. What it means is that the saints in heaven are our brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before us, and who help us in our journey in this life. After all, Jesus says that they are ALIVE (Luke 20:38). And since they are partakers in the divine nature, according to 2 Peter 1:4, that means that they can hear us and help us.

Catholics could come up with a lot of these solas. Since the bible says that we must eat and drink the body and blood of Jesus to have life within us (John 6), then we could say that we are saved by "The Eucharist alone". And since Paul talks about the value of personal suffering for the Church in Colossians 1:24, we could say that we are saved by "Suffering alone". And since the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth (1 Timothy 3:15), then we could formulate the doctrine of being saved by "The Church alone".And since we have to be forgiven for our sins before we can enter heaven, we could come up with the doctrine of "Confession alone". And how many more of these could we invent if we had the time? Lots. But to no purpose whatsoever. The Bible was meant to be taken as a whole, and to not be broken down into parts for convenience' sake.

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

Do you own a Bible per chance? Maybe you could try opening it to see that there are more than 6 or 7 verses in it.

hi !

apologies for any confusion

initially, i posted 22 passages from Scripture in another thread:

which included words such as:

"God", "Jesus", "Lord,", "love", "sacrifice", "grace", "saved", "faith",
"sin", "foolishness", "perish", "death", "repentance",
"Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit",
"baptizing", "eternal life", "Salvation is of the LORD"

i received an infraction, requesting that write an introduction.

instead of requoting all the 22 Scripture passages, i wrote a short introduction, briefly describing my foolishness, sins & repentance and also quoting several Scripture passages.

i received another infraction.

Scripture was written in hebrew, aramaic and greek. but even if i were completely fluent in hebrew, aramaic and greek, i probably would use an english translation when discussing with someone who speaks english.

similarly, if a 50 year old senior pastor who was fluent in hebrew, aramaic and greek were to quote kjv when speaking to an english audience, it would probably be surprising if someone criticises the senior pastor for not quoting in hebrew, aramaic and greek.

normally, when discussing with people, i initially use niv or nkjv translations. if people wish to discuss finer points, then i'll also start quoting kjv. i like the kjv translation actually. but i also read other translations and ocassionally check original languages.

as i mentioned before, i'm not perfect and i've made many mistakes in the past. i still make mistakes !

best wishes and take care there!

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

Sorry, where does the Bible say sola Scripture?

1 Corinthians 11L2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.



Faith alone does not save you.

“What good is it my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?...You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone...faith without deeds is dead.” (Jas. 2:14-26)

1) "if the definition of sola fide is faith alone, then charity comes afterward, we catholics basically agree with the same thing. It is just that protestants are defining it differently"

(apolonio latar - seminarian of the priestly fraternity of the missionaries of st. charles borromeo).

this is one of the most fantastic things i've ever read.

2) DEUS CARITAS EST

(excerpts)

"We have come to believe in God's love: in these words the Christian can express the fundamental decision of his life. Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction."

"Following the example given in the parable of the Good Samaritan, Christian charity is first of all the simple response to immediate needs and specific situations: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for and healing the sick, visiting those in prison, etc"

"Yet at the same time caritas- agape extends beyond the frontiers of the Church. The parable of the Good Samaritan remains as a standard which imposes universal love towards the needy whom we encounter “by chance” (cf. Lk 10:31), whoever they may be"

if i presented the above to those in the "reformation" that understand "grace", "faith", "hope", "love (agape)", "predestination", they would probably say "what fantastic quotes !"

3) "In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God"
(cathechism of the catholic church)

4) i read about st jehanne d'arc and st augustine (among others) and i think it's fantastic when people address them by the title of saints. however, please worship God only !

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. "

5) whenever i meet a person from the catholic church who really understands both the catholic traditions and Scripture, i would like to shake their hands and engage in a healthy discussion.

from my imperfect understanding of history, many in the reformation were actually from the catholic church - and they often referred to st augustine (and hence catholic tradition).

take care there and best wishes!

[Levi Jones]

Re: introduction

hi !

thank you for your thoughts. yours is an excellent post. have a look at the following Scripture. btw, i really like reading the new advent encyclopedia. i also really like the introduction in Deus Caritas Est - encyclical letter.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Salvation is of the LORD

Do you own a Bible per chance? Maybe you could try opening it to see that there are more than 6 or 7 verses in it.

Romans 1 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.