[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

The kid knew he was in too deep so he booked it out of here.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

Mark 12: 30-31

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

I'm not sure what the relevance of this isolated quote is. I asked our visitor of what he has a "secret stash". How is this unloving? Why would he secretly stash something unless it was something of which he was ashamed? Do you consider it unloving to ask questions of those who post attacks in our Introduction Forum?

I think we all agree that as it is said in Jeremiah 44:4, that God does hate sin. That is very true...he despises it. BUT, God does not hate the sinner. As said in Romans 5:6-8:

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ died for the sinners! He does not hate them, and neither should Christians who should "love one another as I love you." (John 15:13)


I would go on and prove some of your other points wrong, but I think I have spent enough of my time on this.

By the way, I am a 23 year old Christian who has been raised in a real church his entire life, but who has also studied the bible in quite a bit of depth on his on...as well as other religions.

Wow, congratulations. 23. I'm a 39-year-old Pastor who was raised Baptist and studied the Bible long enough to know to capitalize the title of God's Word.

Jesus was the sacrifice to forgive all past sins. As I pointed out, Christians must be without sin; those who sin are not Christian.

I can only assume from your response to this point and the relevant scripture that you continue to sin, yet call yourself a Christian.

How can you call yourself a Christian, yet let your own base desires take precedence over the one and only reason God created you, which is to serve and worship Him?

How can you call yourself a Christian, yet spit in Jesus' face every time you think a lustful thought, masturbate, tell a little white lie, or break any one of God's 600+ Commandments?

Do you justify your ongoing sinfulness by claiming that Jesus forgives all sin, past, present, and future?

Please show me the Scripture upon which you base this erroneous, anti-Christian belief.

[Gabriel Reproba]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

Nice to meet you. I'm a 35 year old Pastor who has studied the Bible quite in depth.

[Levi Jones]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

Mark 12: 30-31

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Who is our neighbor?

Luke 10:36-37 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Only those who show Christian kindness and mercy are our neighbors.

Who are our brothers and sisters?

Matthew 12:47-50 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Only those who do His will.

I think we all agree that as it is said in Jeremiah 44:4, that God does hate sin. That is very true...he despises it. BUT, God does not hate the sinner. As said in Romans 5:6-8:

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Amen! Keep in mind with whom Paul is speaking.

And let's keep reading Romans 5.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Before the law came, everyone went to hell.

Now remember that Paul was speaking with fellow Christians which were called.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So, you can see it's really God's choice who gets saved and who doesn't, wouldn't you agree?

Christ died for the sinners! He does not hate them, and neither should Christians who should "love one another as I love you." (John 15:13)

Again, Jesus is speaking about those who are called. He is directly addressing His apostles.

15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17These things I command you, that ye love one another.

I would go on and prove some of your other points wrong, but I think I have spent enough of my time on this.

Please continue. We have so many verses we could go over.

By the way, I am a 23 year old Christian who has been raised in a real church his entire life, but who has also studied the bible in quite a bit of depth on his on...as well as other religions.

Nice to meet you. I'm a 35 year old Pastor who has studied the Bible quite in depth.

[Gabriel Reproba]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

Allow me to help you out.

You give him too much credit. You have to show him in BIG BOLD LETTERS or he will miss it:

Here is a short list of things and people God hates and/or finds to be an abomination (worthy of or causing disgust or hatred).

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.


Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Proverbs 15:8-9,26 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

Proverbs 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Amos 5:21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

Deuteronomy 16:22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

Revelation 2:6; 15 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

[Levi Jones]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

You are right, that was a link to nonsense. Nowhere in that link was there anything that said that God hated anybody.

Allow me to help you out.

Here is a short list of things and people God hates and/or finds to be an abomination (worthy of or causing disgust or hatred).

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.


Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Proverbs 15:8-9,26 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

Proverbs 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Amos 5:21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

Deuteronomy 16:22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

Revelation 2:6; 15 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

[ReasonableGuy]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

No.

Ah, you are one of those. Allow me to enlighten you: God Hates the Sin, not the Sinner. - NONSENSE!

You are right, that was a link to nonsense. Nowhere in that link was there anything that said that God hated anybody.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

People are...THINGS???

No.

Things = Actions (also known as sin). Good try though.

Ah, you are one of those. Allow me to enlighten you: God Hates the Sin, not the Sinner. - NONSENSE!

[ReasonableGuy]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

• Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
• Deuteronomy 12:31 "You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
• Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
  

People are...THINGS???

Things = Actions (also known as sin). Good try though.

[ReasonableGuy]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

Do you have scripture to prove that, or did you just make that up? I assume you are aware changing the Bible is not allowed: Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

You got me there...I made it up

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

There is none other commandment greater than these.

Do you have scripture to prove that, or did you just make that up? I assume you are aware changing the Bible is not allowed: Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Christ died for the sinners! He does not hate them

Don't talk nonsense!

People God hates:

• Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
• Deuteronomy 12:31 "You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
• Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
  

God kills those who do not believe in Him and then sends them to hell:

• 2nd Chronicles 15:13 "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."
• Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
• Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
• John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

[ReasonableGuy]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

What an interesting name! Of what do you have a "secret stash"? Pornography? Drugs?

Mark 12: 30-31

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

God hates sin and sinners, does He not? Will He not resurrect all sinners from peaceful, unknowing death so He may burn them alive for all eternity in His Lake of Fire (Rev. 20-21)? -->

I think we all agree that as it is said in Jeremiah 44:4, that God does hate sin. That is very true...he despises it. BUT, God does not hate the sinner. As said in Romans 5:6-8:

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ died for the sinners! He does not hate them, and neither should Christians who should "love one another as I love you." (John 15:13)


I would go on and prove some of your other points wrong, but I think I have spent enough of my time on this.

By the way, I am a 23 year old Christian who has been raised in a real church his entire life, but who has also studied the bible in quite a bit of depth on his on...as well as other religions.

[GOD=life]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

I am deeply saddened and deeply ashamed.

As apparently you should be. Your whole post is a rant about what you think, what you feel, how you judge us, how you persecute us, etc. Christianity is not about YOURSELF, it's about GOD. I get the strong impression that you haven't made a FULL commitment to God yet.

If I am wrong in this, I suspect a reply shall follow.

You can expect Christians on a Christian forum to do their best to help a misguided soul that can still be saved, yet. We know what it's like to be persecuted, so you're in excellent company.

But I likely shall not return to read it.

That's really rude

Please, in the name of God, change.

I don't follow. Change in what way? Become atheists? No thanks.

I will pray for you.

Thank you, I guess. We will pray for you as well. Why not pray with us instead?

[Dillon]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

I just hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears.

First, welcome to the forum. You, I suspect, are what we like to call a "fluffy-bunny" Christian. That is to say, a "Christian" who likes to view the Bible with rose-tinted glasses and ignore the parts that are inconvenient. I want to have an actual, logical discussion with you so I guarantee you I will not attack you but rather show you the Truth™ in the kindest of ways I can. You are mistaken, my friend, and I intend to show you why.

You ascribed our actions to those of the pharisees.' Perhaps you think we are only presenting ourselves to be religious, but are actually unloving and unmerciful people. The truth is, we want everyone to be saved. Regardless of the smileys you mentioned (are we not allowed to poke fun at the rejection of our Lord? I will have you note that no specific person is depicted in any of those smileys you might find offensive. We are demeaning sin itself; we still want everyone that can be saved to be saved), we are as merciful and loving as the Bible allows us to be. No more, no less. For our goal is to follow the KJV 1611 Bible, the complete and perfect word of our Lord, to the letter, lest we fall to err. My friend you are not bringing God's word for which we want to persecute you as was the case with the Pharisees, but rather the contrary: you came here to persecute US for upholding God's word. And do not forget, you came to do this as an uninvited guest.

Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

You also mentioned the "unsaved unwelcome" mantra. What is wrong with this statement? This very concept (while also having many practical applications) is taught in the very Bible! God wants His Church to be clean and pure Ephesians 5:25-27. The Church is also not for sinners 1 Corinthians 5:5. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 also has quite a bit to say about the matter. My friend, sadly you would not even be allowed in the Church Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

Regarding this topic, I will finally leave you with this, which I think says it all: 1 Corinthians 5:8–13 "Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

I just hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears, until it is too late.

[Levi Jones]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

I am a Christian, having been so for many years. I've been through the tough questioning of life, my existence, and reality most people go through and I've come out the other side, through rational experience, with my faith truly established. I re-committed myself to Jesus Christ, having become more fully aware of the ramifications of such a decision, I've learned much since, and...

I am heartbroken. This place repulses me. The banner at the top, the attitude that seems to exude from... everything. It is the single greatest image of the Pharisees I have ever seen. Even the smiley I view here in the sidebar depicting what I percieve to be a wish for death (before salvation and hence for the damnation!) of individuals that God loves. That he created. That anyone should dare to wish them eternal damnation... may they answer for that.

Maybe you missed the part where Jesus teaches people how to preach.

Matthew 10:14-15 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

What happened to Sodom and Gomorrha? That's right. God rained fire and brimstone on it.

Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Kinda like this.

I am ashamed to be thought of (as Christian) in the same context as those who persecuted Christ most grievously. For they thought themselves to be the very image of the Law, the height of perfection through their own actions. They were incredibly proud, and attacked Christ's willingness to reach out to the lost and dying (the sinners) which he did not drive away with a haughty spirit. May they and their followers, anyone that drives God's beloved creation away from him, answer for that.

Pharisees like Paul of Tarsus?

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

I am deeply saddened and deeply ashamed. If I am wrong in this, I suspect a reply shall follow. But I likely shall not return to read it. Please, in the name of God, change. I will pray for you.

In that case, I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to you if you are just going to hit and run.