[Pastor Rune Enoe]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

If Jesus' actual physical body came to life again, it would have been corrupt biologically, and starting to fester.

No, it wouldn't. I think you're confusing the resurrection story with some "living dead" zombie B-movie.

It had been prophesied since David's time, that Jesus' body would not corrupt:

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

And even if (and I'm speaking theoretically now) Jesus' body had begin to stink - like Lazarus' body did - I'm confident Jesus could fix that little problem too - like he did for Lazarus.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism



Okay I've read your replies ...

If I had lived in the times before modern biological science, I would have believed all of it literally, the way you do ...

But today science shows us (and yesssss with proof!) that these miracles in the scripture couldn't have happened ...

I don't believe any of the supernatural happening on the natural earth ...

Even so I do believe in Almighty God, and in the Holy Spirit beyond the physical realm ...

... I do believe Jesus was the son of God, but that he was a physical human being, to whom God gave the total Grace of the Divine ...

I don't believe that Mary was a virgin, she was a young woman, I believe she was with Joseph, and their son was born, but that the Holy Spirit entered Mary with the message that their son would become the son of God ...

... to teach men of those times that all the faithful can receive a little bit of the gift of the Divine, right here on earth, so that all may have eternal life in the Spirit!

Now this was a new concept within the staunch and very strict Judaism of the day, and to all appeared miraculous ...

In short I believe the story of Jesus was the story of a man, and that later the authors of the Gospels and other books of the New Testament embellished because of the sheer wonder of his life on earth ... and later still, the early Romish church (2nd and 3rd centuries AD) embellished a little more, and so on and so on ...

Also remember that none of the gospels were written until at least 60 years after Jesus' crucifixion ...

But in mainstream Christianity, it is the Divine message of Jesus that matters, and our faith as the Body of Christ in the world today, and not whether the man Jesus was supernatural in real life ...

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

I don't believe any of the supernatural happening on the natural earth ...

Even so I do believe in Almighty God, and in the Holy Spirit beyond the physical realm ...

I see. so God is somehow outside our 'event horizon'? He exists in spirit, but cannot influence us? Be careful how you answer.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

I see. so God is somehow outside our 'event horizon'? He exists in spirit, but cannot influence us? Be careful how you answer.

Well, I don't see evidence that God influences or alters physical matter, that is, inanimate objects or the weather or living things like plants and animals and people ...

I do see a great deal of evidence that He influences the human mind and spirit, that He speaks to us through our minds and imaginations and souls ...

So I believe God is in the Spirit and influences the world spiritually but without changing anything physically ...

This is as carefully as I can answer your question, and is just my belief, not necessarily my church's doctrine ...

Beyond this, I'm not able to explain it any better than I have, Pastor Al ...

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

Well, I don't see evidence that God influences or alters physical matter, that is, inanimate objects or the weather or living things like plants and animals and people ...

I do see a great deal of evidence that He influences the human mind and spirit, that He speaks to us through our minds and imaginations and souls ...

So I believe God is in the Spirit and influences the world spiritually but without changing anything physically ...

This is as carefully as I can answer your question, and is just my belief, not necessarily my church's doctrine ...

Beyond this, I'm not able to explain it any better than I have, Pastor Al ...

Got it. God is one of the voices in your head. Give me an example then, of how he can change something spiritually without the effect being felt temporally. For instance, if He tells you not to drown an arab and you don't, that is certainly more than spiritual. That's physical. If you drown the arab anyway, then that must have been God's wish in the first place and SATAN was whispering in your ear.

Of course that's a rather bad example because GOD would never tell anyone not to kill a diaperhead. So I am not sure what you are saying. Have you ever been lost on a road and God told you how to get home? What sorts of things DO you see GOD doing?

[Sister Noddy]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

Got it. God is one of the voices in your head. Give me an example then, of how he can change something spiritually without the effect being felt temporally. For instance, if He tells you not to drown an arab and you don't, that is certainly more than spiritual. That's physical. If you drown the arab anyway, then that must have been God's wish in the first place and SATAN was whispering in your ear.

Of course that's a rather bad example because GOD would never tell anyone not to kill a diaperhead. So I am not sure what you are saying. Have you ever been lost on a road and God told you how to get home? What sorts of things DO you see GOD doing?

Yes, He is a voice in our heads.

It's easy to tell the difference between His voice and my own thoughts or imaginations. There is no satan, and there are no demons, except in the wild imaginings of our minds; apparitions that are easy to recognize.

I want to tell you some stories that happened to me, Pastor ...

GOD has spoken to me many times in my life as an actual voice. He can also manifest as a figure of light and can be seen temporarily, or send angels.

Once when I was very sick many years ago, a being of light appeared in my bedroom and sat down on the side of the bed and put his arm around my shoulders.

He spoke to me, and I saw him, it was a great angel, very tall. I could see through his body, he was all in transparent white, and he was of the Divine. Next thing I knew, I had slept and when I woke the angel was gone, and I was still sick but the fever had broken, and in a few days I was well.

Would I have got well anyway? Did I imagine the angel?

Nothing was changed in my house, except for one thing. My Bible, which had been on the desk in another room, was now in my hand on the pillow. It was open to Psalm 23.

I don't remember walking to the other room to get the Bible.

Then a few years later ...

Driving my car one night, I took a wrong turn and got lost in the backroads, in the dark, and I was very scared. Suddenly a figure in white, again angelic and taller than a normal person, appeared on the road in front of the car, and waved at me, then pointed, then vanished. I drove in that direction and found the main road, and got home safely.

Would I have got home anyway? Did I imagine the angel?

These experiences were years before I joined the Episcopal Church, I had not forgotten them.

In 1999 I wanted to go back to church, so I asked God what I should do, and He said in my mind: Go and find a church and join it, I will lead you there.

Next day I walked up to the Catholic church, sat through the mass, and afterward asked a priest how to become a Catholic. But the priest didn't seem very interested and walked away. I felt snubbed. And God was silent that night. I thought hmmmm, wrong church!

The day after that I walked into the chapel of the Episcopal Church. The liturgy at noon was being recited. Immediately God spoke to me in my mind and said: You have come home, and these things you see being done at the altar before you, so shall you do them also ...

So you see, I don't see very much of the physical going on, but He speaks to us in our minds. Therein lies the secret of the miracles, the secret is within us, given by the Grace of God.

I have been at my church for eight years, and a liturgical minister for seven. What God promised me came true for me. I didn't have to do anything, it all fell into place, it was given to me just like that.

... this is a serious post, Pastor

[Brother V]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

In short I believe the story of Jesus was the story of a man, and that later the authors of the Gospels and other books of the New Testament embellished because of the sheer wonder of his life on earth ... and later still, the early Romish church (2nd and 3rd centuries AD) embellished a little more, and so on and so on ...

If you believe the entire thing has been embellished (just a little more each time) then why even bother to believe any of it at all?

Or do you just FEEL that some parts are right, and then FEEL your way around the parts you don't think partain to you?

Even so I do believe in Almighty God,

No, you believe in a somewhat, kinda, maybe just a little bit powerful god.

You don't believe in ALMIGHTY God. If you believed in ALMIGHTY God, then

I would have believed all of it literally

wouldn't be a statement, you'd make.

The statement would be "I believe in all of it, literally".

Instead, you have looked for PROOF, and instead of believing what God has laid out for you, you instead took the easy way out.

You are no christian.

You probably don't even believe a guy named Jesus existed, or if he did, he was just a wise man.

But, you sure do look purdy in your fancy e-pisc-o-pail-e-an robes.

sure do...

V

[Sister Noddy]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

No, you believe in a somewhat, kinda, maybe just a little bit powerful god.

You don't believe in ALMIGHTY God. If you believed in ALMIGHTY God, then

(this)

wouldn't be a statement, you'd make.

The statement would be "I believe in all of it, literally".

Instead, you have looked for PROOF, and instead of believing what God has laid out for you, you instead took the easy way out.

You are no christian.

You probably don't even believe a guy named Jesus existed, or if he did, he was just a wise man.

But, you sure do look purdy in your fancy e-pisc-o-pail-e-an robes.

sure do ...

V

Really Brother V, I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type. You guys are a scream!

Believe it or not, I've found renewed strength in my own Episcopalian faith just by joining and posting on this fundie Baptist forum.

Another miracle from God? Would I have found renewed vitality anyway?

(see my post above, I think you missed the special story of angels I had to tell Al, and it's all true)

... may the peace of the Lord be always with you, minister noddy

[Brother V]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

Really Brother V, I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type. You guys are a scream!

Believe it or not, I've found renewed strength in my own Episcopalian faith just by joining and posting on this fundie Baptist forum.

Another miracle from God? Would I have found renewed vitality anyway?

(see my post above, I think you missed the special story of angels I had to tell Al, and it's all true)

... may the peace of the Lord be always with you, minister noddy

I saw your post about the "angels".

Did you know that you dream more when you are hot? A high fever will probably cause you to have a halucination.

Very high fevers, between 103 and 106 F, may cause hallucinations, confusion, irritability and even convulsions.

You didn't see an angel. You had a hallucination. Your feeble mind confused your hallucination with being an angel, other people might have called it the ghost of a relative, or an alien; you chose angel. Because you have an affinity for WANTING it to be religious, you also identified a want inside your head as being God directing you to a church.

Friend, you haven't been spoken to by God. You haven't been spoken to by anything.

And, we hear a lot that people become refreshed in their religion from visiting our forums.

Also, you explained before your "faith". You seem to have none. Is that what the episcopalians require?

V

[Sister Noddy]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

I saw your post about the "angels".

Did you know that you dream more when you are hot? A high fever will probably cause you to have a halucination.

You didn't see an angel. You had a hallucination. Your feeble mind confused your hallucination with being an angel, other people might have called it the ghost of a relative, or an alien; you chose angel. Because you have an affinity for WANTING it to be religious, you also identified a want inside your head as being God directing you to a church.

Friend, you haven't been spoken to by God. You haven't been spoken to by anything.

And, we hear a lot that people become refreshed in their religion from visiting our forums.

Also, you explained before your "faith". You seem to have none. Is that what the episcopalians require?

V

Yep Brother V, I asked myself that very thing, when I saw the apparitions I thought were angels. I could have been my imagination, caused by fever.

In fact all the messages from God my whole life might have been just in my mind. But things fell into place for me. I felt deep down that the visitations were Holy.

I am very happy in my church, my life has been good ever since then. As for my faith, I have plenty.

So tell me, what is it that yooooooooou Baptists require? To take the whole Bible in context without regard to history or logic or chronological time, a mishmash of geneology and Hebew Law and arcane descriptions of devils and angels and warriors? It is mytholoical! But the God of the human soul in Jesus, is the living GOD.

I have every bit as much faith in my own church as you do in yours, Brother V ...

(gosh I do love to get into these theological discussions, don't you?)

... peace, noddy

[Brother V]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

So tell me, what is it that yooooooooou Baptists require? To take the whole Bible in context without regard to history or logic or chonological time, a mishmash of geneology and Hebew Law and arcane descriptions of devils and angels and warriors? It mytholoical! But the God of the human soul in Jesus, is the living GOD.

We pretty much follow the Nicean Creed, without the catholic mumbo jumbo.

Among other things:

We require for you to realize that God only gave one (count them ONE) way for you to get to know Him; that's the Bible (KJV1611). There is no other book that he has given that tells you how to get to heaven (or hell).

You seem to reject most of that book.

We require for you to believe that God gave His only begotten son (John 3:16) who died on the cross, and rose from the grave (physically; as we mentioned earlier) three days later.

You seem to reject that belief.

We believe that God will spit the lukewarm into hell (Revelation 3:16). We believe that we must be DOERS of the word, not just hearers. (Pretty much the entire book of James) We believe Faith without works is dead.

By only believing what you want, you aren't hot or cold, but lukewarm... hence; not a christian.

We believe that not everyone who cries LORD LORD will enter heaven. (Matthew 7:21). We believe that only God's elect will go to heaven. (1 Thessalonians 1:4)

(I'm not sure your beliefs on this)

We believe that the earth was created in 6 days, and then God rested. We believe the earth is only (roughly) 6000 years old. We believe God killed everyone but 8 people and 2 of every creature (except for the ones where there were more) roughly 5000 years ago.

(I'm not sure your beliefs on this)

We have faith of a mustard seed. (Matthew 17:20)

You need proof, not faith.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

YIC
V

[Sister Noddy]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

We pretty much follow the Nicean Creed, without the catholic mumbo jumbo.

We follow the Nicean Creed exactly in the Episcopal Church, with all the catholic mumbo jumbo included.

-----------------

Among other things:

We require for you to realize that God only gave one (count them ONE) way for you to get to know Him; that's the Bible (KJV1611). There is no other book that he has given that tells you how to get to heaven (or hell).

You seem to reject most of that book.

No we don't reject the Bible, we think it is a collection of stories written by ancient holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit, then compiled and rewritten and retranslated (several times); we believe it as 'sacred story'.

-----------------

We require for you to believe that God gave His only begotten son (John 3:16) who died on the cross, and rose from the grave (physically; as we mentioned earlier) three days later.

You seem to reject that belief.

We believe in God and His only begotten son Jesus, who died on the cross, and rose spiritually (even though it is standard to catholic doctrine in the Nicean Creed, belief in His physical bodily resurrection is not required in our church) and then ascended to His Father in heaven.

-----------------

We believe that God will spit the lukewarm into hell (Revelation 3:16). We believe that we must be DOERS of the word, not just hearers. (Pretty much the entire book of James) We believe Faith without works is dead.

We believe all the baptized will go to Heaven, and all are loved by God. We don't believe in a literal hell.

We do believe that faith without works is dead, as you do.

-----------------

By only believing what you want, you aren't hot or cold, but lukewarm ... hence; not a christian.

We believe that not everyone who cries LORD LORD will enter heaven. (Matthew 7:21). We believe that only God's elect will go to heaven. (1 Thessalonians 1:4)

We don't believe this. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church, we believe in the communion of Saints (those who went before, and those of us waiting now); that we here on earth are the Body of Christ today; and we know that everyone is loved by God and all baptized are the elect.


-----------------

(I'm not sure your beliefs on this)

We believe that the earth was created in 6 days, and then God rested. We believe the earth is only (roughly) 6000 years old. We believe God killed everyone but 8 people and 2 of every creature (except for the ones where there were more) roughly 5000 years ago.

We don't believe in the 6 literal days of creation, we believe in science: the Big Bang, the universe is 13.7 billion years old, and the earth and solar system are 4.5 billion years old; and we believe in evolution of life on earth, from the simple lifeforms to the complex (us) over several billions of years' time.

-----------------


(I'm not sure your beliefs on this)

We have faith of a mustard seed. (Matthew 17:20)

Yes we believe this.

-----------------


You need proof, not faith.

Yes on some things I need proof. I never said I was perfect.

-----------------


I hope this answers some of your questions.

Yes it does, Brother V, thanks!


YIC
V

... peace, noddy

[Brother V]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

... peace, noddy

Well, I'm sure someone else will answer your points to these questions.

Right now, I'm feeling kind of like Noah (Genesis 9:21) and am thankful that I don't have a negro son and don't live in a tent.

Off to bed with me.

YIC
V

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

Yes, He is a voice in our heads.

Ummm....the kinds of voices in your head to which you refer can be attenuated somewhat with a tinfoil cap.

It's easy to tell the difference between His voice and my own thoughts or imaginations. There is no satan, and there are no demons, except in the wild imaginings of our minds; apparitions that are easy to recognize.

You are making that up. The whole thing about GOD is that it is NOT easy to tell unless you read the guidebook.

I want to tell you some stories that happened to me, Pastor ...

GOD has spoken to me many times in my life as an actual voice. He can also manifest as a figure of light and can be seen temporarily, or send angels.

So can SATAN. Unless YOU choose to believe that SATAN cannot fool you, in which case.....he has.

Once when I was very sick many years ago, a being of light appeared in my bedroom and sat down on the side of the bed and put his arm around my shoulders.

He spoke to me, and I saw him, it was a great angel, very tall. I could see through his body, he was all in transparent white, and he was of the Divine. Next thing I knew, I had slept and when I woke the angel was gone, and I was still sick but the fever had broken, and in a few days I was well.

Would I have got well anyway? Did I imagine the angel?

Probably not. I has a similar experience when a crazed Pacific Islander stabbed me almost to death. I was in a coma and suddenly I was drawn into an ascending hallway and walked up toward the light where three men in white robes met me. They asked if I wanted to continue to the light and I said I needed to go back. The light was so bright you could not look at it, but it was cool and pure white. I immediately awoke from the coma and was healed in two days.

Nothing was changed in my house, except for one thing. My Bible, which had been on the desk in another room, was now in my hand on the pillow. It was open to Psalm 23.

I don't remember walking to the other room to get the Bible.

So did GOD bring it to you?

Then a few years later ...

Driving my car one night, I took a wrong turn and got lost in the backroads, in the dark, and I was very scared. Suddenly a figure in white, again angelic and taller than a normal person, appeared on the road in front of the car, and waved at me, then pointed, then vanished. I drove in that direction and found the main road, and got home safely.

Would I have got home anyway? Did I imagine the angel?

Yes, that time you did. Angels are not normally hanging about the backroads in Britain waiting to direct every lost driver. You were likely kidnapped by aliens.

These experiences were years before I joined the Episcopal Church, I had not forgotten them.

In 1999 I wanted to go back to church, so I asked God what I should do, and He said in my mind: Go and find a church and join it, I will lead you there.

OK, I can almost see you imagining that....except for the FACT He led you to Landover.

Next day I walked up to the Catholic church, sat through the mass, and afterward asked a priest how to become a Catholic. But the priest didn't seem very interested and walked away. I felt snubbed. And God was silent that night. I thought hmmmm, wrong church!

That's not news.

The day after that I walked into the chapel of the Episcopal Church. The liturgy at noon was being recited. Immediately God spoke to me in my mind and said: You have come home, and these things you see being done at the altar before you, so shall you do them also ...

God called to Abraham using similar words in Genesis 22, but GOD rarely speaks to women. In fact, I am temporarily unable to remember a single time God ever spoke to a Woman.
So you see, I don't see very much of the physical going on, but He speaks to us in our minds. Therein lies the secret of the miracles, the secret is within us, given by the Grace of God.

I have been at my church for eight years, and a liturgical minister for seven. What God promised me came true for me. I didn't have to do anything, it all fell into place, it was given to me just like that.

Yep. That isn't GOD. That's SATAN. God doesn't give freebies.

... this is a serious post, Pastor

You are a liturgical minister, in defiance of the Bible, in an Anglican or Episcopalian or some other false church, you don't believe the Bible and so you are minister for what purpose?

[Sister Noddy]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

To answer your replies to my story, Al ...

It's easy to tell the difference between His voice and my own thoughts or imaginations. There is no satan, and there are no demons, except in the wild imaginings of our minds; apparitions that are easy to recognize.

-------------

You are making that up. The whole thing about GOD is that it is NOT easy to tell unless you read the guidebook.

Well you know, I HAVE read the guidebook, Pastor Al, in two versions, the KJV1611 and the RSV.

I want to tell you some stories that happened to me, Pastor ...

GOD has spoken to me many times in my life as an actual voice. He can also manifest as a figure of light and can be seen temporarily, or send angels.

-------------

So can SATAN. Unless YOU choose to believe that SATAN cannot fool you, in which case ..... he has.

Yesssss, so can satan, except I don't believe in satan.

Once when I was very sick ...

Would I have got well anyway? Did I imagine the angel?

-------------

Probably not. I has a similar experience when a crazed Pacific Islander stabbed me almost to death. I was in a coma and suddenly I was drawn into an ascending hallway and walked up toward the light where three men in white robes met me. They asked if I wanted to continue to the light and I said I needed to go back. The light was so bright you could not look at it, but it was cool and pure white. I immediately awoke from the coma and was healed in two days.

That's quite a story, Al, am sooooo glad you survived!

So you are saying you believe me about that angel? I think it was Michael. The one who watches over the sick. He had a Divine presence, and he was beautiful. I wasn't afraid at all.

Nothing was changed in my house, except for one thing. My Bible, which had been on the desk in another room, was now in my hand on the pillow. It was open to Psalm 23.

I don't remember walking to the other room to get the Bible.

-------------

So did GOD bring it to you?

The archangel must have brought it to me and opened it to the passage he wanted me to have, and put it in my hand on the pillow.

Then a few years later ...

Driving my car one night, I took a wrong turn and got lost in the backroads, in the dark, and I was very scared ...

Would I have got home anyway? Did I imagine the angel?

-------------

Yes, that time you did. Angels are not normally hanging about the backroads in Britain waiting to direct every lost driver. You were likely kidnapped by aliens.

Well for one thing Al, I'm in America, and this happened in the Bay Area backroads. The guy on the road was an angel, just like the one in my room that other time.

These experiences were years before I joined the Episcopal Church, I had not forgotten them.

In 1999 I wanted to go back to church, so I asked God what I should do, and He said in my mind: Go and find a church and join it, I will lead you there.

-------------

OK, I can almost see you imagining that .... except for the FACT He led you to Landover.

Yessssss Al, the hard fact is, something (or Someone) led me here to Landover, and I was hooked immediately, and cannot stay away.

Next day I walked up to the Catholic church ...

I thought hmmmm, wrong church!

-------------

That's not news.

Hahahahahaha

The day after that I walked into the chapel of the Episcopal Church. The liturgy at noon was being recited. Immediately God spoke to me in my mind and said: You have come home, and these things you see being done at the altar before you, so shall you do them also ...

-------------

God called to Abraham using similar words in Genesis 22, but GOD rarely speaks to women. In fact, I am temporarily unable to remember a single time God ever spoke to a Woman.

-------------

So you see, I don't see very much of the physical going on, but He speaks to us in our minds. Therein lies the secret of the miracles, the secret is within us, given by the Grace of God.

I have been at my church for eight years, and a liturgical minister for seven. What God promised me came true for me. I didn't have to do anything, it all fell into place, it was given to me just like that.

-------------

Yep. That isn't GOD. That's SATAN. God doesn't give freebies.

Al, God definitely DID lead me to my church, He spoke to me clear as day. And I did work for what I achieved there. Took me a year, some required theology classes and such, and I was licensed to the Order of Laity (Lay Eucharistic Ministers) by the Bishop.

I want to thank Brother V for his time and attention in this thread, and you too Pastor Al ... peace of the Lord!

... noddy