[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

To answer your replies to my story, Al ...

Well you know, I HAVE read the guidebook, Pastor Al, in two versions, the KJV1611 and the RSV.

Yesssss, so can satan, except I don't believe in satan.

That's quite a story, Al, am sooooo glad you survived!

So you are saying you believe me about that angel? I think it was Michael. The one who watches over the sick. He had a Divine presence, and he was beautiful. I wasn't afraid at all.

The archangel must have brought it to me and opened it to the passage he wanted me to have, and put it in my hand on the pillow.

Well for one thing Al, I'm in America, and this happened in the Bay Area backroads. The guy on the road was an angel, just like the one in my room that other time.

Yessssss Al, the hard fact is, something (or Someone) led me here to Landover, and I was hooked immediately, and cannot stay away.


Hahahahahaha




Al, God definitely DID lead me to my church, He spoke to me clear as day. And I did work for what I achieved there. Took me a year, some required theology classes and such, and I was licensed to the Order of Laity (Lay Eucharistic Ministers) by the Bishop.

I want to thank Brother V for his time and attention in this thread, and you too Pastor Al ... peace of the Lord!

... noddy

Minister Noddy, we are quite prepared to live in peace with you and discuss matters Biblical, Scriptural, and Temporal until it eventually becomes clear that you won't accept JESUS. Then we have to kill ya, nothing personal. I had the impression you were an Englisher. If you are in the Bay area, that explains quite a bit. I am almost certain Angels do not visit the Bay area, but one visited me in Los Angeles, so maybe they catch the commuter up your way on the way back to Vegas.

It's quite a nice religion you have there, Minister. God exists in a spiritual plane and cannot effect changes, but sends real angels to bring you a Bible (and undoubtedly it was the KJV) and others to keep you on the path of righteousness.....LITERALLY, by manifesting as an articulated signpost on a deserted road. But only GOOD angels can appear.

Conversely, SATAN doesn't exist, although He is just as much an angel as Michael. You say Michael paid you a nocturnal visit and you even call him by name....but Satan doesn't exist. How can that be? The only references you have to Michael are in the very same book as the references to SATAN.

I want to be your friend, and I hope I accord you the level of respect you accord me. But your 'religion' is not a religion at all. It is not even a quantified belief system. In synopsis, your religion goes like this:

If I like it, it is true and Biblical.
If I don't like it, it is merely a story made up by old men.
You say this: "We follow the Nicean Creed exactly in the Episcopal Church, with all the catholic mumbo jumbo included."

I am going to include the Nicene creed here and I am going to ask you a couple of simple questions so you can explain ask how you can follow it EXACTLY, when your own stated beliefs contradict it. My questions are colored and underlined for clarity.

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God Why?
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit
and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified
under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;

This is the crux of your error. YOU cannot pick and choose among Scriptures. YOU cannot decide which are correct and which are not, because you can never have that knowledge. Either you MUST believe ALL of the Bible, or you must believe that life evolved. If you choose to believe in 'scientific fact', you must realize that GOD is no longer necessary in the story of creation. You must reach attorn with ALL of the Scriptures, or none of them.


he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand
of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,


Actually, JESUS SAID that He is returning to lead the final battle of the Righteous believers in Him against everyone else. If everyone is going to heaven, who will his armies fight? What is the purpose of individual judgment? What will happen to those who are judged unfit for heaven? If everyone has a soul, what will happen to those who fight on the wrong side? If everyone will be resurrected and go to Heaven, why are they dead in the first place?

and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord,
and the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son
is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

Exactly WHICH prophets are to be believed and which ignored and who made that decision?

We believe in the one holy catholic
(Christian) and apostolic church.

*1* We shall quest for this after the main commentary.

We acknowledge one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I only asked a couple of simple questions, but we can discuss this at length if you wish.

The Bible is the ONLY evidence that the One TRUE GOD exists, but you do not follow it. I quote "No we don't reject the Bible, we think it is a collection of stories written by ancient holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit, then compiled and rewritten and retranslated (several times); we believe it as 'sacred story".

So you don't reject the Bible, you simply don't believe it. That is not the basis for a religion, it is the definition of a social club for agnostics. It is a mish-mash of ceremony designed to deliver only messages which make people feel good. It is a mockery of Jesus' sacrifice!

But then you state things like this as fact: "We believe all the baptized will go to Heaven, and all are loved by God. We don't believe in a literal hell."

By what instrument of Biblical knowledge or astrology or reading tea leaves can you believe that everyone will go to heaven and hell doesn't exist? The Bible doesn't say that or anything remotely similar. It says EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE! The ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE BIBLE is to establish and demonstrate that BOTH Good AND Evil exist, and that we must make the right choices...which is why we have free will. If there is ONLY a Heaven and everyone is going, what is the judgment about?

**********************************************

The following refers to the Catholic church, whose teachings you say you follow. I realize you are Episcopalian... "Catholic Lite" as you are called in mainstream Christianity. Even so, all of these references apply directly to you.

*1*

The move toward the global church is called the "ecumenical movement." Spearheaded by the Roman Catholic Church, it is designed to bring all churches under the influence of the pope. Since the idea of love and unity is very appealing, many Christians have welcomed the idea, without thinking it through. How can an evangelical Christian, saved by faith alone, be in unity with a Roman Catholic who believes in salvation by good works? The result is always a watering down of the simple, pure gospel.

In his book, Smokescreens (you can read it online), Jack Chick explains why it is important for us to witness to Catholics, rather than accepting them as brothers and sisters in Christ. We must love them enough to tell them the truth! Some will become angry, others will respond in faith. But if we truly love them, we won't hold back the truth. For more information in this subject, we make available a number of books (see Books: Catholicism). In addition, you can read online a comparison of the current catechism with the Bible, showing how it teaches a false gospel, written by Rick Jones (see Understanding Roman Catholicism).

Didn't Christianity consist of the Catholic Church for the first 1500 years? No. While the Catholic Church was seeking to control the world through religion, true Christians were running for their lives from the Catholic holocaust that ran for centuries. God has always had His people, faithful to Him and His Word. They had no part in the Roman Catholic Church. Through much of history, organized religion has hunted and slaughtered God's people. For an excellent overview of this, read the classic work, "The Trail of Blood," at one of these websites:
http://users.aol.com/libcfl/trail.htm
http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/rlister/baphist/blood/trail.htm

And one last quote from you: We don't believe in the 6 literal days of creation, we believe in science: the Big Bang, the universe is 13.7 billion years old, and the earth and solar system are 4.5 billion years old; and we believe in evolution of life on earth, from the simple lifeforms to the complex (us) over several billions of years' time.

Where does GOD fit into this? If the 6 days of creation are not literal, why are the three days of Jesus' death? You state that you believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one. Remember this?

the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.

How can the Almighty be right about three days and wrong about 6 days?

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

Yesssss, so can satan, except I don't believe in satan.

So Jesus was wrong when He said that satan exists? Because you say he doesn't?
And what tempted Jesus in the desert? Nothing?

And why is the Bible warning us several times about underestimating the devil if he doesn't even exist??
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1 Peter 5:8

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Ephesians 6:11

And you believe in Michael.. but not the one he fought over the body of Moses?
Just who'm did Michael fight with then, himself?

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses,
Durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jude 1:9

This is quite pathetic really;
Your so-called faith is nothing but what YOU want to be true.
You believe in yourself to know the truth, when you are but human.
A fool who believes in her own heart, and not in God.

So you are saying you believe me about that angel? I think it was Michael. The one who watches over the sick. He had a Divine presence, and he was beautiful. I wasn't afraid at all.

You didn't test the spirit (1 John 4:1-3), so for all you know:
It could have been satan.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Corinthians 11:14

Well for one thing Al, I'm in America, and this happened in the Bay Area backroads. The guy on the road was an angel, just like the one in my room that other time

See above.

Al, God definitely DID lead me to my church, He spoke to me clear as day. And I did work for what I achieved there. Took me a year, some required theology classes and such, and I was licensed to the Order of Laity (Lay Eucharistic Ministers) by the Bishop.

How could YOU ever know??
The muslims also believe that God holds them in favor.. and that they are going to Heaven.

And you're saying that somehow, you can know God's will without using the Bible while they can't?
Are you somehow better as a human? What you're saying is nothing but vanity and foolishness.

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverbs 16:18

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

GOD has spoken to me many times in my life as an actual voice. He can also manifest as a figure of light and can be seen temporarily, or send angels.

Once when I was very sick many years ago, a being of light appeared in my bedroom and sat down on the side of the bed and put his arm around my shoulders.

He spoke to me, and I saw him, it was a great angel, very tall. I could see through his body, he was all in transparent white, and he was of the Divine. Next thing I knew, I had slept and when I woke the angel was gone, and I was still sick but the fever had broken, and in a few days I was well.

Would I have got well anyway? Did I imagine the angel?

Nothing was changed in my house, except for one thing. My Bible, which had been on the desk in another room, was now in my hand on the pillow. It was open to Psalm 23.

I don't remember walking to the other room to get the Bible.

Then a few years later ...

Driving my car one night, I took a wrong turn and got lost in the backroads, in the dark, and I was very scared. Suddenly a figure in white, again angelic and taller than a normal person, appeared on the road in front of the car, and waved at me, then pointed, then vanished. I drove in that direction and found the main road, and got home safely.

Would I have got home anyway? Did I imagine the angel?

I thought you didn't believe in the supernatural? So how did the Bible arrive in your hand? Do you not believe supernatural things can happen in the physical world unless you like the idea of them, in which case they can?

Or do you just FEEL that some parts are right, and then FEEL your way around the parts you don't think partain to you?

I felt deep down that the visitations were Holy.

We do believe that faith without works is dead, as you do.

What works? We believe that, by "works", Jesus meant the will of His Father, as laid down in the OT. Since you heretics see the OT as nothing more than an extra-long issue of Mad magazine, what do you mean by "works"?

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church, we believe in the communion of Saints (those who went before, and those of us waiting now); that we here on earth are the Body of Christ today; and we know that everyone is loved by God and all baptized are the elect.

I'm confused. Are we Baptists part of the one Catholic Church? Because I'm pretty sure I'm not. Or does God let people who aren't in His Holy Church into Heaven? Sounds like you believe in a lot of uncatholic Churches to me.

[revrggreen]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

This story HAS to be a hoax. All good brothers and sisters of Christ know that you cannot drown a witch. Everyone knows the sure-tested way of identifying a witch is by 'dunking'. If you hold your suspected witch, or wiccan, under the water for a long period of time and she drowns (just to be sure), you know she was innocent. No harm done! If she is still alive after the 'dunking', she is a witch! She must be burned upside-down over a basket of screaming cats, lest her soul escape to possess the living!

I am sure this 'supposed' witch-doctor was nothing of the sort. He was probably some crazy old negra with mental illness. Maybe he dropped some fried chicken in the water? And now he's toasting his ass in Hell! Praise Jesus!

In Christ,

Rev RG Green

Brethren & Sistren

Yahoo! News

DAR ES SALAAM (AFP) - A traditional medicine man in Tanzania drowned after jumping in a river and promising to resurface three days later with relevations from ancestral spirits, police said Tuesday.

The local witch doctor, named as Nyasio Alfonso, staged his ill-fated stunt last week at the village of Masingo in the western Mpanda district near Lake Tanganyika, Rukwa regional police commander Daudi Siadi told AFP.

Dozens of villagers chanted and drummed as the fortune-teller dived to confer with the riverine spirits, he said.

"The incident was reported to us by the village leadership on Sunday, four days after Alfonso threw himself into the river," he said. "His decomposing body was fished out several metres downstream."

[. . .]

[Sister Noddy]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism



Pastor Al, after a night's sleep and some soul-searching prayer, I am back to the forum, and will try to answer the questions you've asked in your carefully composed post.

Let me say I appreciate all the trouble you've gone to, to post it, it's quite impressive.

If what you are saying is true about Christianity, then I'd better start all over from the beginning.

If it is all true, literally true as written in Bible, then I don't know anything after all, never did know anything, and don't know what the future holds for me and others like me who are not accustomed to Christianity in its original intent and meaning.

We believe in one God.

Why?

I don't really know. Pagan nature-based religions of ancient times believed in many gods and spirits controlling the natural environment. Some time later the Hebraic people got the idea that above all of those there was one single diety as lord and master over all of it. The Hebrews believed in a covenant of God with His people, in the giving of the Law. As so the prophets began to write their holy scriptures. But it was yet to be revealed that God was even more than that, that He had control and communion with each individual as well.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;

This is the crux of your error. YOU cannot pick and choose among Scriptures. YOU cannot decide which are correct and which are not, because you can never have that knowledge. Either you MUST believe ALL of the Bible, or you must believe that life evolved. If you choose to believe in 'scientific fact', you must realize that GOD is no longer necessary in the story of creation. You must reach attorn with ALL of the Scriptures, or none of them.

Well it would appear that this is correct, Al. Some of the scriptures can't be true while others are not true, can they? It appears to be all or nothing. But what about the observations of the natural universe and the overwhelming scientific evidence for an ancient universe, particle physics, quantum mechanics, the speed of light, the nature of gravity, and many other things? Mathematics don't lie. And none of it is in keeping with what is in the Bible. My personal explanation has always been that God set it all in motion from the beginning of space-time, so that what we observe today in the universe and nature is the result of billions of years of time as humans measure it here on earth according to the revolution of the planet around the sun. What is time after all, but a measurement of motion? What would any logical educated person of today choose, based on established scientific results which have been cross-checked by many and whose answers all come out the same? A rational person would choose scientific knowledge, and consider the Bible as metaphor, written by primitives who had very little idea of nature as it really is. You see my problem here?

He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,

Actually, JESUS SAID that He is returning to lead the final battle of the Righteous believers in Him against everyone else. If everyone is going to heaven, who will his armies fight? What is the purpose of individual judgment? What will happen to those who are judged unfit for heaven? If everyone has a soul, what will happen to those who fight on the wrong side? If everyone will be resurrected and go to Heaven, why are they dead in the first place?

I'm sorry to say that I've never understood the meaning of what Jesus was saying.

who has spoken through the prophets.

Exactly WHICH prophets are to be believed and which ignored and who made that decision? We believe in the one holy catholic (Christian) and apostolic church.

It's obvious from the standpoint of theology that ALL of them must be believed equally, for the scripture to make sense as a whole. But a rational person would conclude that in the face of modern science, none of them were right, and therefore the Bible can't be true, and that Christianity is an archaic belief system which has no reality except in the imaginings of the human mind.

I don't know the answer Al.

(Just one detail: the word catholic means 'universal' as in one church for all people)

The Bible is the ONLY evidence that the One TRUE GOD exists, but you do not follow it.

So you don't reject the Bible, you simply don't believe it. That is not the basis for a religion, it is the definition of a social club for agnostics. It is a mish-mash of ceremony designed to deliver only messages which make people feel good. It is a mockery of Jesus' sacrifice!

You are right, I have not believed the Bible as fact.

But then you state things like this as fact: "We believe all the baptized will go to Heaven, and all are loved by God. We don't believe in a literal hell."

By what instrument of Biblical knowledge or astrology or reading tea leaves can you believe that everyone will go to heaven and hell doesn't exist? The Bible doesn't say that or anything remotely similar. It says EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE! The ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE BIBLE is to establish and demonstrate that BOTH Good AND Evil exist, and that we must make the right choices...which is why we have free will. If there is ONLY a Heaven and everyone is going, what is the judgment about?

You are right about this too, the notion of heaven would not make sense if one didn't believe in hell as well, and that some are going to heaven while many are already doomed to hell. This would be a logical conclusion of what is written in the scriptures.

Within the contect of your fundamentalist belief system, you are absolutely correct in everything you have said, Pastor.

This is all I have to say for this post. I thank you for your friendship Al, on the board here you have been patient and kind, and have gone to a lot of trouble to explain things to me. I really appreciate that, and hope we can continue. It's not over for me yet, I have many things to think about.

May the peace of the Lord be always with you

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Sorcerer botches baptism

If what you are saying is true about Christianity, then I'd better start all over from the beginning.

If it is all true, literally true as written in Bible, then I don't know anything after all, never did know anything, and don't know what the future holds for me and others like me who are not accustomed to Christianity in its original intent and meaning.

Deep down, I think you know your way of approaching the Bible doesn't really make sense...
And that it can never come close to the truth.

I don't really know. Pagan nature-based religions of ancient times believed in many gods and spirits controlling the natural environment. Some time later the Hebraic people got the idea that above all of those there was one single diety as lord and master over all of it.

No..
You still cling to the notion of God as some kind of made-up concept.
God isn't an idea, a concept, nor some notion:
God is the truth, the beginning, and the end.

The Hebrews believed in a covenant of God with His people, in the giving of the Law. As so the prophets began to write their holy scriptures. But it was yet to be revealed that God was even more than that, that He had control and communion with each individual as well.

And the prophets wrote as God dictated..
But you're right to say that more was to be revealed, with the coming of Jesus Christ.

Well it would appear that this is correct, Al. Some of the scriptures can't be true while others are not true, can they? It appears to be all or nothing.

Of course.
For an example that might be good in your case:
Do you only believe the part of a scientific theory that you like, or do you believe it all?
Like.. would you believe in the big bang but believe in the bang as being small-scale?
No of course not, as that would make even less sense than the silly theory does in it's entirety.

The notion of God doesn't seem to make sense either when you start to believe only the parts of the Bible that you like:
That's when you start to doubt, and believe less and less.. And after a while, you will believe nothing of it!

That's why the Bible warns us of trusting so-called science.

But what about the observations of the natural universe and the overwhelming scientific evidence for an ancient universe, particle physics, quantum mechanics, the speed of light, the nature of gravity, and many other things?

What evidence is that? It's theory.
Theory based on man's limited knowledge and understanding.

Also, some theory's that are truly proven true - through practical application:
Such as nuclear power and A-bombs, is actually proof of the fallability of science, as it was an "scientifically established fact" that atoms couldn't be split.
Same with electromagnetism, it was a "scientific fact" that electricty and magnetism wasn't related, but they were sure proven wrong when the first electric motor was constructed!

What I'm saying is, you can't trust science to provide truth because it's fallible - Simply because man (ie scientists) is fallible. While God is not.
Therefore, Put your faith in God, and not in men, and HE will show you real truth.

Mathematics don't lie.

True, cause math isn't a living thing. But it can be misunderstood, and one can make miscalculations.
And we can never know if we, in our limited understanding, understand it correctly either.

Mathematical calculations dealing with space (as in the cosmos and related phenomena) and such has to be interpretated too..
And then once again: fallability, and pure bias, will come into play.
The chance for mistakes and errors is HUGE.

And none of it is in keeping with what is in the Bible. My personal explanation has always been that God set it all in motion from the beginning of space-time, so that what we observe today in the universe and nature is the result of billions of years of time as humans measure it here on earth according to the revolution of the planet around the sun. What is time after all, but a measurement of motion? What would any logical educated person of today choose, based on established scientific results which have been cross-checked by many and whose answers all come out the same? A rational person would choose scientific knowledge, and consider the Bible as metaphor, written by primitives who had very little idea of nature as it really is. You see my problem here?

See above.
I can see how that would be the most rational stance:
IF such theories were actually proven, and science was infallible..
But as I showed you, it most certainly is not.

I'm sorry to say that I've never understood the meaning of what Jesus was saying.

Well, look at it this way: You're certainly not the only one.
But we're here to help you who'm are lost find your way.

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

The perils of false belief.

Pastor Al, after a night's sleep and some soul-searching prayer, I am back to the forum, and will try to answer the questions you've asked in your carefully composed post.

Good Morning, Minister Noddy. Please do. I am continuing with the color merely as a way to help us all keep track of the interweaving of these threads.

Let me say I appreciate all the trouble you've gone to, to post it, it's quite impressive.

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to pass on the teachings of the Bible at every opportunity.

If what you are saying is true about Christianity, then I'd better start all over from the beginning.

I do not want to destroy the entire Episcopal church in one fell swoop, but it seems perfectly reasonable to ask the source of your belief system.

By your description, your church is a support group for people who are lonely or want to feel good about themselves and enjoy the ceremony attendant with being fed kool-aid and crackers, and that's great. I support that 1000%. In fact, if you MUST be heretics, that seems to me the best kind to be, and I am certain that when Jesus returns to pass judgment, He will balance your good works with the fact that you did break away from the Unholy Catholic Church in Rome before He tosses you all into HELL.

If it is all true, literally true as written in Bible, then I don't know anything after all, never did know anything, and don't know what the future holds for me and others like me who are not accustomed to Christianity in its original intent and meaning.

So I ask again. How do you know what Christianity's original intent and meaning is if you toss out all of the parts of the Bible that don't make you feel good? Who, exactly decided what is to be kept and what is to be tossed out? That seems very self-serving.

I don't really know. Pagan nature-based religions of ancient times believed in many gods and spirits controlling the natural environment. Some time later the Hebraic people got the idea that above all of those there was one single diety as lord and master over all of it. The Hebrews believed in a covenant of God with His people, in the giving of the Law. As so the prophets began to write their holy scriptures. But it was yet to be revealed that God was even more than that, that He had control and communion with each individual as well.

That is a thoroughly modern idea. Although Jesus will JUDGE everyone individually, God speaks only to the elect and they are always men, and leaders of men. The very idea of a female minister is anathema in EVERY Bible, the Koran, the Talmud, and Even the Book of Mormon, a sick and disgusting guide to child abuse.

Well it would appear that this is correct, Al. Some of the scriptures can't be true while others are not true, can they? It appears to be all or nothing. But what about the observations of the natural universe and the overwhelming scientific evidence for an ancient universe, particle physics, quantum mechanics, the speed of light, the nature of gravity, and many other things? Mathematics don't lie. And none of it is in keeping with what is in the Bible. My personal explanation has always been that God set it all in motion from the beginning of space-time, so that what we observe today in the universe and nature is the result of billions of years of time as humans measure it here on earth according to the revolution of the planet around the sun. What is time after all, but a measurement of motion? What would any logical educated person of today choose, based on established scientific results which have been cross-checked by many and whose answers all come out the same? A rational person would choose scientific knowledge, and consider the Bible as metaphor, written by primitives who had very little idea of nature as it really is. You see my problem here?

No. I see a lack of faith.

I'm sorry to say that I've never understood the meaning of what Jesus was saying.

You don't accept the Bible as literal, you don't believe God is physical, nor can He affect us physically except by causing Good Angels to appear, there is no Satan, everyone is going to heaven, and YOU HAVE NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE MEANING OF WHAT JESUS WAS SAYING?!?!?!?

That's great. And you are a minister who, presumably, passes all this non-knowledge on to others who are as clueless as you. Fine. Let's go outside and pick some flowers and enjoy a picnic and a bottle of wine and we'll all feel good about ourselves because we choose to be oblivious. So, apart from having a grand ceremony...one which you do not believe is 'real'...what do you do in church? Why do you even GO to church? I'll tell you. It is for fellowship with each other, NOT with GOD. Calling it a church is great for the church because any number of people will pay to hear good news, but it is like calling 7-11 a 5 star restaurant.

In this very forum we are constantly bombarded by vicious attacks; verbal, Internet, even attempts at physical violence by people who insist that GOD LOVES EVERYONE. He has drowned the earth and send plagues to kill every firstborn but, in His mercy, he allowed His only begotten son, in whom He was well pleased:

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
2 Peter 1:13
Mark 1:11
Matthew 3:17

to be killed in the most horrible way imaginable to reflect an act of LOVE for all future generations. Acceptance of that REQUIRES that you believe in the Bible and understand WHY that was an act of love. Otherwise, it must seem an awful act of hatred and murder. But it was to demonstrate that GOD DOES NOT LOVE EVERYONE! The people who believe He does are fools. Although God IS amused by SOME fools:

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
1 Corinthians 1:21

If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1 Corinthians 3:18

We are fools for Christ's sake.
1 Corinthians 4:10

He does not love ALL fools. God expects those in authority NOT to be fools:

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight.
Psalm 5:5

See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise.
Ephesians 5:15

In EVERY case, and I repeat EVERY CASE which people accuse us of making up Scripture; of making Christianity seem harsh and cruel; of not following the Word of God, the person making the accusation HAS NEVER READ THE BIBLE. IF ANYONE SHALL ACCUSE ME OF POSTING A FALSE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE, LET HIM COME FORTH NOW! I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE KJV1611 (Authorized) BIBLE AND I DO NOT WAVER, NOR DOES ANYONE HERE!

It's obvious from the standpoint of theology that ALL of them must be believed equally, for the scripture to make sense as a whole. But a rational person would conclude that in the face of modern science, none of them were right, and therefore the Bible can't be true, and that Christianity is an archaic belief system which has no reality except in the imaginings of the human mind.

I don't know the answer Al.

I can tell you where to find it. Open your Bible and begin with Genesis. The first lesson you must learn is that women are owned by men..In Genesis 3:17, Adam is punished because he "hearkened unto the voice" of his wife."

(Just one detail: the word catholic means 'universal' as in one church for all people)

It might, in a technical or taxonomic way, but "Catholic" is universally understood to mean "The Roman Catholic Church". Playing semantics with me will not strengthen your case, especially since you have said " "We follow the Nicean Creed exactly in the Episcopal Church, with all the catholic mumbo jumbo included." You explicitly use 'catholic' in the context I have described.

You are right, I have not believed the Bible as fact.

Again, I ask...where is the foundation of your church?

You are right about this too, the notion of heaven would not make sense if one didn't believe in hell as well, and that some are going to heaven while many are already doomed to hell. This would be a logical conclusion of what is written in the scriptures.

Within the contect of your fundamentalist belief system, you are absolutely correct in everything you have said, Pastor.

There is one belief system in Christianity. It is The Bible. There is no other, or it is no longer Christianity. Christianity, in all it's forms except Roman Catholicism, which evolved from the Egyptian god Dagon and the Christian Angel SATAN, is devolved from the Bible alone.

This is all I have to say for this post. I thank you for your friendship Al, on the board here you have been patient and kind, and have gone to a lot of trouble to explain things to me. I really appreciate that, and hope we can continue. It's not over for me yet, I have many things to think about.

Minister, if you prefer to carry on here, I am pleased to further your knowledge of the Bible. If, however, you would rather continue privately, PM me and we can discuss the difference between faith and philosophy.

May the peace of the Lord be always with you

You have denied the Bible and the Lord and STILL you DARE to speak a blessing in His Holy Name? I cannot believe it.

"The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, and toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them."
Deuteronomy 28:56-57

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

This has gone on long enough!

I cannot abide sinners and FALSE CHRISTIANS any longer!!

Minister Noddy, I COMMAND YOU, in the Name of GOD, to cast the demons out of your colon and CONVERT TO TRUE CHRISTIANITY(tm) this very second!

As GOD is my WITNESS, and JESUS my SAVIOR, I order SATAN, the Dark Angel to Release His hold on your person and CAST HIS DEMONS into the nearest flock of homers, goths, lezbeans or other trailer trash and send them for a swim in SIN FRANCISCO BAY and I beseech you LORD to grant this miracle to me so all can see that your Power and Might are absolute and that all who do not convert to the TRUE CHRISTIAN(tm) faith SHALL be tossed into the lower caverns of HELL to burn and be repaired to burn again for eternity.

In the Glorious Name of The Prince of Peace do I pray.

AMEN AND AMEN!

Pastor Al Pistle to JESUS, DIRECT FROM LANDOVER BAPTIST!

[Sister Noddy]

Re: This has gone on long enough!

I cannot abide sinners and FALSE CHRISTIANS any longer!!

Minister Noddy, I COMMAND YOU, in the Name of GOD, to cast the demons out of your colon and CONVERT TO TRUE CHRISTIANITY™ this very second!

As GOD is my WITNESS, and JESUS my SAVIOR, I order SATAN, the Dark Angel to Release His hold on your person and CAST HIS DEMONS into the nearest flock of homers, goths, lezbeans or other trailer trash and send them for a swim in SIN FRANCISCO BAY and I beseech you LORD to grant this miracle to me so all can see that your Power and Might are absolute and that all who do not convert to the TRUE CHRISTIAN™ faith SHALL be tossed into the lower caverns of HELL to burn and be repaired to burn again for eternity.

In the Glorious Name of The Prince of Peace do I pray.

AMEN AND AMEN!

Pastor Al Pistle to JESUS, DIRECT FROM LANDOVER BAPTIST!

God Almighty!

... hey that DOES sound right, after all .. God Almighty ... GOD!

You SCARED ME PASTOR! I was just coming back to answer the Godly post of Mr Salvation, when I stumbled to my literal knees, seeing your post here, Pastor Al

Of course I will have to give up being a minister in my namby pamby sissy false-christian angli-can't church ... but hmmm ... if it means that's the only way to get JESUS ...

Okay okay okay!!!! all right already!!!! my life isn't working, Pastor Al! my faith, what I thought my faith was all this time has been to no avail after all, the sad and sorry fact for me is that what yooooooou Godly pastors are saying makes much more sense! Okay already, I ACCEPT JESUS, I ACCEPT THE BIBLE!!!! okay?

... and now I think I feel a headache coming on, an exhausted (and defeated) noddy

... amen ... amen ... okay? ...

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: This has gone on long enough!

Of course I will have to give up being a minister in my namby pamby sissy false-christian angli-can't church ... but hmmm ... if it means that's the only way to get JESUS ...

Okay okay okay!!!! all right already!!!! my life isn't working, Pastor Al! my faith, what I thought my faith was all this time has been to no avail after all, the sad and sorry fact for me is that what yooooooou Godly pastors are saying makes much more sense! Okay already, I ACCEPT JESUS, I ACCEPT THE BIBLE!!!!

If this is true, then you have no idea how glad that will make me!

... and now I think I feel a headache coming on, an exhausted (and defeated) noddy

What you feel is satan struggling to hold on to your wretched body!
OUT DEVIL OUT!

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: This has gone on long enough!



PRAISE JESUS! That's one more soul taken out of Satan's grasp and put onto the winning team!

TAKE THAT, DEVIL!

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Sister Noddy]

Re: This has gone on long enough!

PRAISE JESUS! That's one more soul taken out of Satan's grasp and put onto the winning team!

TAKE THAT, DEVIL!

Pastor Billy-Reuben

He's out --- he's out of me Pastor Billy! --- That must have been what my headache was, SATAN leaving my brain!

Yoooooou know what? he was real after all!!!!! he must have been hanging around my house for GOD knows how long, all in white, looking like an angel of light ---

Gosh! this changes everything! you know one of the things that did it for me was when i read one of the Godly pastor's posts saying that if I thought Michael was real, then why didn't I think Satan was real, since he was once an angel too! right? right?

Well I see I have a lot of new things to learn, Pastor! PRAISE JESUS!

... a rapidly recovering noddy, and happy with that!

[Sister Noddy]

Re: This has gone on long enough!

If this is true, then you have no idea how glad that will make me!



What you feel is satan struggling to hold on to your wretched body!
OUT DEVIL OUT!

Oooooooh boy, Mr Salvation, the devil is out of my brain and body --- this is why I feel so lightheaded! --- starting to recover from the headache!

It was such a strange thing, it was your Godly post I was starting to answer, when I saw Pastor Al's ---

And that was the moment! GLORY! Gosh, I feel so different now ....

... a different noddy happening, praise!

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: This has gone on long enough!

Oooooooh boy, Mr Salvation, the devil is out of my brain and body --- this is why I feel so lightheaded! --- starting to recover from the headache!

It was such a strange thing, it was your Godly post I was starting to answer, when I saw Pastor Al's ---

And that was the moment! GLORY! Gosh, I feel so different now ....

... a different noddy happening, praise!

Thank you LORD, for providing a REAL, PROVABLE, MIRACLE! We are going to wait for a little while to make sure SATAN doesn't come back, but it appears that Minister Noddy (women can be ministers, they just can't speak in church...but someone needs to council addle-headed females, and we get LOTS of them!) is on the road to TRUE CHRISTIANITY(TM).

PRAISE!

[Sister Noddy]

Re: This has gone on long enough!

Thank you LORD, for providing a REAL, PROVABLE, MIRACLE! We are going to wait for a little while to make sure SATAN doesn't come back, but it appears that Minister Noddy (women can be ministers, they just can't speak in church ... but someone needs to council addle-headed females, and we get LOTS of them!) is on the road to TRUE CHRISTIANITY™.

PRAISE!

PRAISE! Pastor Al, this is soooooo wonderful! The difference is like night and day! it was the weight of SATAN inside, telling me lies, like science and logic! It all comes clear now, why couldn't I see it before?

So you're saying I can still be minister noddy, even though I am not gonna be a church minister anymore? no more preaching, no more speaking in church! Which reminds me, I must give them a call in the morning to let them know I won't be there on Sunday, that I'll elsewhere with my Bible lessons ...

Thank you Jesus! sooooo good to be addle-headed now Pastor, I don't have to think for myself anymore, the BIBLE will do my thinking for me. A million burdens have fallen away! Which reminds me, I had better start from scratch on the Bible, the KJV1611 of course, and I am going to need plenty of councilling, Pastor Al, and starting from the beginning I'll bet Genesis is going to sound a whole lot different to me when I learn it this time!

Praise GOD, a lightheaded noddy