[Pastor J.C. Manning, M.D., Ph.D.]

Re: Pray for doctors to stop treating Amy Copeland

Dear VictorVektor,

So I decided to post. I am mostly simply inquiring as to your beliefs--why you post the way you do. At this point, I do not wish to debate or flame.

Your wish does not seem to be reflected in your actions. If you are here to debate, please be honest about it.

I am speaking of Jeremiah 31:31-34; Matthew 5:21-39, 40-48; Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 3:11-25; Galatians 3:24-26; Galatians 4:1-2, 4-5, and 9-11; 1 Corinthians 5:7-8; and Hebrews 7:19. The Law was meant to show us our need for a Savior. For if we could be justified through the Law, what need was there for Jesus to give His life?

You seem to be overlooking Matthew 5:17-19 which teaches us Jesus was not here to destroy the old laws but to fulfill them. Near the end of the Bible, in Revelation 22:14, Jesus points out once more how important it is to follow all of God's commandments. None of them should be taken lightly as James 2:10 teaches us that breaking a single law is just as bad as breaking all of them!

Further, do you ever wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

No Christian should ever do that as God indeed forbids it. Our opinion on God's laws is irrelevant. All we have to do is follow them.

or cut your hair or shave (Leviticus 19:27)?

God's word has to be taken literally. However, Leviticus 19:27 does not forbid cutting or shaving hair. Please read it thoroughly before you start spreading misinformation. In Revelation 22:18-19 you can read how God punishes those who, like you, misrepresent His word.

I brought up 2 Samuel 12:22 because David, knowing God's heart, believed that he could possibly change God's choice of wrath, not unlike Abraham did. It ended up the same in the end, but like David said: "Who knows?" Can you back up your point--that this woman's disease is a direct result of her own sin and it would be against God to pray against it--with Scripture? How do you know this is God's will?

It seems you don't understand how prayer works. In Matthew 21:22 the Bible teaches us that prayer only works for those who truly believe.

I also read in the rules that you all believe in 100% literal translations of the Bible: "as a child would read it." I'm curious how children would interpret any of Jesus' parables? In Matthew 13:10-17, Jesus told His disciples why He spoke in parables: the Pharisees wanted to take everything literally, but it was given to His disciples understood the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven." Also consider 1 Corinthians 2:14. I could be wrong, but I don't think the Bible was meant to be taken literally in every passage.

Thinking is not the proper approach for the Bible. You are correct in assuming that not everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. To be precise, those parts of the Bible which explicitly tell us not to take them literally. All other parts of the Bible have to be taken literally. Deuteronomy 4:2 teaches us how this works.

Yours in Christ,

Pastor J.C. Manning, M.D., Ph.D.

[ExGay Alex]

Re: Pray for doctors to stop treating Amy Copeland

You seem to be overlooking Matthew 5:17-19 which teaches us Jesus was not here to destroy the old laws but to fulfill them. Near the end of the Bible, in Revelation 22:14, Jesus points out once more how important it is to follow all of God's commandments. None of them should be taken lightly as James 2:10 teaches us that breaking a single law is just as bad as breaking all of them!

Precisely, Pastor! The passages cited by Victor/Victoria support only the idea that the law is not enough, but not the idea that it should be disregarded altogether.

His/her silly example about the blind man is also off the mark. Jesus knew THIS particular case, and since sins are visited upon the sons for seven generations, Jesus merely answered the question about the man and his parents. They did not ask about his great great great great great grandparents, and therefore Jesus did not mention them. I have read this passage over and over and there is absolutely no mention of the sins of his ancestors seven generations back.

And finally this idiot totally misunderstands Leviticus, as you rightfully pointed out. It's sad the level of religious education nowadays. What ARE they teaching in Sunday school at the liberal, social churches?? Assuming Victor/Victoria ever went to church....

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Pray for doctors to stop treating Amy Copeland

Everyone on this darn site is absolutely insane. This poor woman is ILL. Not because she sinned. Just unfortunate happenings, I guess. Yes, it must be God's will

I'm glad you recognize that much.

So, if her losing her hands and feet is God's Will . . . why do you think God wanted her to lose her hands and feet? After all, He could very easily have given her a slight nudge while she was swinging, and she'd have missed the rock she cut herself on.

Would Jesus turn his back on this girl or heal her? I pray for all of you to truly know God... your comments are sick

Well, He either caused her to lose her hands and feet, or He stood by and allowed it. Which do you think it was?

I'm curious as to how you will respond:



How do you know she was struck with this disease because she angered the Lord? Was not Job also struck with boils on his skin, though the Lord considered him "perfect"? Surely, you cannot believe that any cold, flu, or disease that falls upon you is punishment from God.

Job was struck with boils (and had his family exterminated) because God and Satan had a bet about his level of faithfulness. God, knowing everything (including the future), knew in advance that Job wouldn't turn on Him, but allowed Satan to murder Job's family and all his cattle and smite him with boils anyway.

Do you think God keeps doing the same bet on different people? Is that what you're thinking, that God made a bet with Satan again and this time it was Aimee Copeland instead of Job?

What kind of a sick monster do you think God is, anyway?

[VictorVektor]

Re: Pray for doctors to stop treating Amy Copeland

Your wish does not seem to be reflected in your actions. If you are here to debate, please be honest about it.

True. I apologize—I thought I had removed that part in a previous draft, but I guess I hadn’t. I did notice it after I posted, but this forum lacks an “edit” button.

You seem to be overlooking Matthew 5:17-19 which teaches us Jesus was not here to destroy the old laws but to fulfill them. Near the end of the Bible, in Revelation 22:14, Jesus points out once more how important it is to follow all of God's commandments.

The Greek word translated “fulfill” is “pleroo,” which means “to satisfy” or “finish (a period or task).” The Law, God’s first Covenant, was meant to be temporary. God put it in place to show us our need for a Savior (Galatians 3:24) and that through the Law alone, without God’s sacrifice, we could not be saved (Galatians 2:21). That is why Jesus said “it is finished” when He died on the cross (John 19:30) and why it was prophesied in that God would write a new Covenant in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

If by “fulfill,” you mean that Jesus came to do the Law exactly as it was written, that would mean that Jesus’ primary purpose in His life was not to sacrifice Himself for us because His primary purpose was to merely do what the Law says.

Galatians 3:19 says that the Law was added “till the seed should come to whom the promise was made.” See that word “till”? That’s also the word Jesus used when He said “till all be fulfilled” in Matthew 5:19. Jesus fulfilled God’s Old Covenant by dying on the cross as payment for our sins.

It seems you don't understand how prayer works. In Matthew 21:22 the Bible teaches us that prayer only works for those who truly believe.

I agree; however, that doesn’t mean that God answers every prayer. Your reasoning is that after much praying and no response from God, God must not have heard their prayers because of their unrighteousness (that kind of assumption sounds like something one of Job’s friends would say—and they were way off!)

God hasn’t told any of us why Amy Copeland is still sick. We can say what we want and back up our assumptions with Scripture, but ultimately, we have no idea that those apply. In one part of the Bible, God may do something for one reason, and in another part, he may do the same thing for a different reason. In our day, He may do (or not do) something and have a completely different reason. For all we know, we haven't prayed enough for Amy's healing. But unless God specifically revealed something to us for this event, we just don’t know.

ExGay Alex: what if no one sinned to cause his blindness? The "seven generations" explanation could be correct, but since the disciples never asked and Jesus never answered, we really don't know. Your explanation is no more than a guess and assumption.

You are correct in assuming that not everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. To be precise, those parts of the Bible which explicitly tell us not to take them literally.

I do not assume. I study and reach conclusions.

Do you think God keeps doing the same bet on different people? Is that what you're thinking, that God made a bet with Satan again and this time it was Aimee Copeland instead of Job?

I never said that. God has His reasons for doing or allowing things and, like with Job's friends, it would be foolish for us to pretend we know God's mind.

[Deaner]

Re: Pray for doctors to stop treating Amy Copeland

... You know Ron White has the best saying ever...I believe he had you mind when he spoke these brilliant words...you can't fix stupid.

You also can't fix when God decides to eat you from the genitals on up, from the inside out and from the outside in with an incurable disease... stupid.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Pray for doctors to stop treating Amy Copeland

I never said that. God has His reasons for doing or allowing things and, like with Job's friends, it would be foolish for us to pretend we know God's mind.

At least you are wise enough to recognize that Aimee Copeland lost her hands and feet because God wanted her to.

Was it a bet? Was it because she was a sinner who needed to learn a horrific lesson? Was it because He wanted to torment her to teach other sinners a lesson, like when He starves poor children in Africa to death to teach Americans to appreciate what they have?

I don't know. I do know it was His Will that she suffer horrible agony and permanent disfigurement for some reason, and I'm glad you do, as well.

[ExGay Alex]

Re: Pray for doctors to stop treating Amy Copeland

The Greek word translated “fulfill” is [blah blah blah]

Why do these pompous Biblical "scholars" have to take the plain meaning of the King James Version and try to pick about and dissect some word with its supposed nuanced meaning in Greek? We are reading the KJV1611.

If by “fulfill,” you mean that Jesus came to do the Law exactly as it was written, that would mean that Jesus’ primary purpose in His life was not to sacrifice Himself for us because His primary purpose was to merely do what the Law says.

Jesus came to fulfill the prophesies about a Messiah who would correspond to the characteristics of Jesus. I am amazed that you don't understand that. You are just an internet copier/paster without an understanding of Christian theology already mastered by most 7-year olds.

[/quote]Galatians 3:19 says that the Law was added “till the seed should come to whom the promise was made.” See that word “till”? That’s also the word Jesus used when He said “till all be fulfilled” in Matthew 5:19. Jesus fulfilled God’s Old Covenant by dying on the cross as payment for our sins.[/quote]

God's old covenant was "follow my rules and I'll give you land." Why would that need to be abrogated in order to have a new, additional one?

Besides, my Bible still has an Old Testament and you cannot deprive me of my right to read it and follow it. I am sick of you anti-religious atheists trying to tell me that my Bible is irrelevant. MY FAITH IS BASED ON THE WHOLE BIBLE.

I agree; however, that doesn’t mean that God answers every prayer.

Yes it does. I already proved that.

God hasn’t told any of us why Amy Copeland is still sick. We can say what we want and back up our assumptions with Scripture, but ultimately, we have no idea that those apply. In one part of the Bible, God may do something for one reason, and in another part, he may do the same thing for a different reason. In our day, He may do (or not do) something and have a completely different reason. For all we know, we haven't prayed enough for Amy's healing. But unless God specifically revealed something to us for this event, we just don’t know.

False. God spoke to me and told me I was right.

ExGay Alex: what if no one sinned to cause his blindness? The "seven generations" explanation could be correct, but since the disciples never asked and Jesus never answered, we really don't know. Your explanation is no more than a guess and assumption.

No. Sin causes blindness. The guy was blind. Therefore somebody sinned.

You flunk Logic 101.

I do not assume. I study and reach conclusions.

You assume too much. You assume you are right and we are wrong. Therefore, you reach the wrong conclusions. You should stop pontificating and debating and limit yourself to praising Jesus and learning from us.

it would be foolish for us to pretend we know God's mind.

We know what is on God's mind. The Bible tells us so.

[Deaner]

Re: Pray for doctors to stop treating Amy Copeland

I'd kinda like to see the end result. I've been praying that she survives until she's nothing but a walking, talking bag of bones. That'd be freaky and scare the shit out of any non-Christians.