[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Sure looks like rational thinking to me. Wonder if God'll forgive you for this one?

What are you talking about? That's like telling someone to read child porn

Are you insane?

YIC

[Alkalai]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Again, I'm not interested in your satanic book. What if my faith will be damaged when I read it? Then I'll be going to Hell. It would be rather stupid, therefore, to read it.

Sure looks like rational thinking to me. Wonder if God'll forgive you for this one?

[Pim Pendergast]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

So, people will be teleios if they fulfill the purpose for which they were created.

So are you saying the reprobate -- those who will never be saved -- are perfect? God created the reprobate so that he might destroy them and demonstrate His wrath.

Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Rom 9:20-24 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The reprobate are vessels of wrath fitted, or made, for destruction, crafted by God, the Master Potter. Applying your logic to these passages, the wicked, then, are perfect, for by being born in sin, living in sin, dying in sin and suffering eternal torment for their sin, they are fulfilling the purpose for which God made them.

For what purpose were human beings created? The Bible leaves us in no doubt as to that. In the old creation story in the RSV translation, we find God saying: ‘Let us make man in our image after our likeness’ (Genesis 1:26).

Please don't use the Rotten Stinking Version.

Human beings were created to be like God. The characteristic of God is this universal benevolence, this unconquerable goodwill, this constant seeking of the highest good of every individual. The great characteristic of God is love to saint and to sinner alike.

God made some people for destruction and others for glory. But if you are talking about the purpose, or the longing, which God put in Adam's heart when He placed him in the Garden, I like the first question set forth in the Westminster Shorter Catechism:

Q: What is the chief end of man?
A: Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him forever.

No matter what we do to him, God seeks nothing but our highest good.

We can't do anything to God.

It is the whole teaching of the Bible that we attain our humanity only by becoming Godlike. The one thing which makes us like God is the love which never ceases to care for others, no matter what they do to it. We fulfill our humanity; we enter upon Christian perfection, when we learn to forgive as God forgives, and to love as God loves. – Professor William Barclay

Billy Barclay was a heretic:

Barclay's personal views, expressed in his own A Spiritual Autobiography (1977) and Clive L. Rawlins' William Barclay: prophet of goodwill: the authorized biography (1998) included:

• scepticism concerning the Trinity: for example "Nowhere does the New Testament identify Jesus with God."

• belief in universal salvation: in his autobiography he wrote, "I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God."

• pacifism: "war is mass murder".

[Levi Jones]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

As for your question about the translations, were the translators of the KJV more in tune than those who translated the Geneva Bible, or wasn't there another before them, from Tyndale as an example? Do you think this was a familiar argument to those who lived then as now?

The Tyndale is a fine translation. It is very faithful and accurate. Too bad about what happened to him getting set on fire by the catlicks.

The Geneva is another favorite of mine. It almost reads word for word the same as the KJV, though. The big difference is the margin notes.

[Shimei]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

All of them use perfect for Matt. 5:48, because to do otherwise would be to purposely deny of God's perfection.

Take the NIV. They use the same telios and call it mature when it suits their self hating liberal agenda.

Philippians 3:15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.

How much better is this?

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Thank you Levi, have a wonderful evening and God bless.

[Levi Jones]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I haven't said any of that, but yes, I enjoy learning and would like to know. I spend more than 80% of my time throughout the day reading. I take it all for what it's worth.

As for your question about the translations, were the translators of the KJV more in tune than those who translated the Geneva Bible, or wasn't there another before them, from Tyndale as an example? Do you think this was a familiar argument to those who lived then as now?

Thanks Levi, I do appreciate your time.

All of them use perfect for Matt. 5:48, because to do otherwise would be to purposely deny God's perfection.

Take the NIV. They use the same telios and call it mature when it suits their self hating liberal agenda.

Philippians 3:15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.

How much better is this?

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

[Shimei]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

And also, Shimmy.

Your fluffy bunny liberal Christian appeals to a distinctly Greek meaning of the term "perfect". What language did Jesus speak? Are you saying the original language of the gospels was Greek?

How does he know the actual gist of what Jesus is quoted as saying in Greek probably translated from Aramaic eventually into English better than all of the Th.D.'s; Ph.D.'s, Master's of Theology and etc.?

Are the modern translations somehow more accurate when they substitute "perfect" for "mature" selectively? They are somehow more in tune with Jesus than people were say 400 years ago when the KJV was first translated.

I would be fascinated to know these things, but you don't know, do you? I would have to ask the writer of your "study guide" wouldn't I?

I haven't said any of that, but yes, I enjoy learning and would like to know. I spend more than 80% of my time throughout the day reading. I take it all for what it's worth.

As for your question about the translations, were the translators of the KJV more in tune than those who translated the Geneva Bible, or wasn't there another before them, from Tyndale as an example? Do you think this was a familiar argument to those who lived then as now?

Thanks Levi, I do appreciate your time.

[Levi Jones]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

And also, Shimmy.

Your fluffy bunny liberal Christian appeals to a distinctly Greek meaning of the term "perfect". What language did Jesus speak? Are you saying the original language of the gospels was Greek?

How does he know the actual gist of what Jesus is quoted as saying in Greek probably translated from Aramaic eventually into English better than all of the Th.D.'s; Ph.D.'s, Masters of Theology and etc.?

Are the modern translations somehow more accurate when they substitute "perfect" for "mature" selectively? They are somehow more in tune with Jesus than people were say 400 years ago when the KJV was first translated.

I would be fascinated to know these things, but you don't know, do you? I would have to ask the writer of your "study guide" wouldn't I?

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Look at this atheist demon spreading the false gospel of "logic." How can he sleep at night?

[Levi Jones]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Levi,

I'd like to share with you a page from a study guide.

Exactly! Instead of reading the words, read about what the words say. You're well on your way.

I had lost my internet connection for an hour so to kill time I typed it out. There seems to be a lot of emphasis placed on the Greek word teleios given the length of commentary. Here's the page, please feel free to add anything. I don't really see where any of this really contradicts what has been shared:

Matthew 5:43-8
Jesus said, You, therefore, must be perfect. This word is often used in Greek in a very special way. It has nothing to do with what we might call abstract, philosophical, metaphysical perfection. A victim which is fit for a sacrifice to God, that is a victim which is without blemish, is teleios. A man who has reached his full-grown stature is teleios as distinct from a half-grown youth. A student who has reached a mature knowledge of a subject is teleios as opposed to a learner who is just beginning, and who as yet has no grasp of things.

To put it another way, the Greek idea of perfection is functional. A thing is perfect if fully realizes the purpose for which it was planned, designed and made. In point of fact, that meaning is involved in the derivation of the word. Teleios is the adjective formed from the noun telos. Telos means an end, a purpose, an aim, a goal. A thing is teleios if it achieves the purpose for which it is planned; human beings are perfect if they achieve the purpose for which they were created and sent into the world.

Thayer's lexicon defines Telos as:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
a) consummate human integrity and virtue
b) of men
1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Now, is your source saying that in Matthew 5:48 God is not actually perfect?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jesus is saying we should be fully grown as God is?

Let us take a very simply analogy. Suppose in my house there is a loose screw, and I want to tighten and adjust this screw. I go out and I buy a screwdriver. I find that the screwdriver exactly fits the grip of my hand; it is neither too large nor too small, too rough nor too smooth. I lay the screwdriver on the slot of the screw and the screw is fixed. In the Greek sense, and especially in the NT sense, that screwdriver is teleios, because it exactly fulfilled the purpose for which I desired and bought it.

This is horrible. I already showed how this line of reasoning does not work in my original sermon. If Jesus was a perfect tabernacle, Jesus also exhorts us toward perfection.

In the old creation story in the RSV translation, we find God saying: ‘Let us make man in our image after our likeness’ (Genesis 1:26).

Amen! The earth was created in six days! Glory!

Human beings were created to be like God.

And then we sinned even though we did not have knowledge of good and evil. Later in the chapter, God kills everyone but what could fit on Noah's boat because humanity's very nature was evil.

Brother, you're not telling me anything I don't know!

The characteristic of God is this universal benevolence

Of course it isn't. That's just crazy talk.

God doesn't listen to the prayers of sinners.

The great characteristic of God is love to saint and to sinner alike. No matter what we do to him, God seeks nothing but our highest good.

I think it's fairly clear this study guide is fit for kindling now. God does not love everyone. In fact, He curses those who oppose Him even across generations.

Thy foes might hate, despise, revile,
Thy friends unfaithful prove;
Unwearied in forgiveness still,
Thy heart could only love.

That's pretty good, but I have a song for you. I think it is much better, don't you?

3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.
4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

It is the whole teaching of the Bible that we attain our humanity only by becoming Godlike.

This is the first thing he said that makes sense.

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Matthew 5:43-8
Jesus said, You, therefore, must be perfect. This word is often used in Greek in a very special way. It has nothing to do with what we might call abstract, philosophical, metaphysical perfection. A victim which is fit for a sacrifice to God, that is a victim which is without blemish, is teleios. A man who has reached his full-grown stature is teleios as distinct from a half-grown youth. A student who has reached a mature knowledge of a subject is teleios as opposed to a learner who is just beginning, and who as yet has no grasp of things.



To put it another way, the Greek idea of perfection is functional. A thing is perfect if fully realizes the purpose for which it was planned, designed and made. In point of fact, that meaning is involved in the derivation of the word. Teleios is the adjective formed from the noun telos. Telos means an end, a purpose, an aim, a goal. A thing is teleios if it achieves the purpose for which it is planned; human beings are perfect if they achieve the purpose for which they were created and sent into the world.

Indeed, so we are "perfect" when we do God's will. And God's will is made clear in the rest of the KJV Bible.

The thing is, there is no need to have the Bible interpreted by experts. It is quite sufficient to read it oneself and take it the way it is put to you, which is literally. If God had meant only theologians to understand His word, so that these theologians would be the gatekeepers of Heaven, with the power to send men to Hell by withholding their wisdom, what sort of God would that be? Certainly not a benevolent one.

On the other hand, it is quite alright that lazy illiterate bums be reliant on others for knowledge of salvation, because they deserve to burn in Hell.

So how are we to know what God considers perfection? By reference to the rest of the Bible. We know that this merely functional perfection which refers to fulfilling God's plan, and actual complete perfection are identical, because Christ tells us that the commission of the tiniest sin is tantamount to committing the most heinous sin. So we are designed by God in hopes that we should not sin at all.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

[Shimei]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Sears has a thousand different screwdrivers and they all fit your hand because it's basically just a stick with a handle.That's good for my Home Depot stock but what does that mean for my spiritual life?

Hello Mr. Nobar King,

Can you clarify?

If I am not mistaken, you're leading me into Matthew 6 at this very moment.

A Craftsman screwdriver placed in inventory achieves nothing and is meaningless. A stick with a handle that achieves no end contact with the screw would be meaningless. Unless the Craftsman screw driver is good for something, it is good for nothing. Unless the Christian is aimed and driven to a goal which it is a joy to obtain, it becomes largely without meaning.

Excuse me if I am way off track. If so, please elaborate.

[Nobar King]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Let us take a very simply analogy. Suppose in my house there is a loose screw, and I want to tighten and adjust this screw. I go out and I buy a screwdriver. I find that the screwdriver exactly fits the grip of my hand; it is neither too large nor too small, too rough nor too smooth. I lay the screwdriver on the slot of the screw and the screw is fixed. In the Greek sense, and especially in the NT sense, that screwdriver is teleios, because it exactly fulfilled the purpose for which I desired and bought it.

Sears has a thousand different screwdrivers and they all fit your hand because it's basically just a stick with a handle.That's good for my Home Depot stock but what does that mean for my spiritual life?

[Shimei]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Levi,

Thank you for your encouragement.

I'd like to share with you a page from a study guide. I had lost my internet connection for an hour so to kill time I typed it out. There seems to be a lot of emphasis placed on the Greek word teleios given the length of commentary. Here's the page, please feel free to add anything. I don't really see where any of this really contradicts what has been shared:

Matthew 5:43-8
Jesus said, You, therefore, must be perfect. This word is often used in Greek in a very special way. It has nothing to do with what we might call abstract, philosophical, metaphysical perfection. A victim which is fit for a sacrifice to God, that is a victim which is without blemish, is teleios. A man who has reached his full-grown stature is teleios as distinct from a half-grown youth. A student who has reached a mature knowledge of a subject is teleios as opposed to a learner who is just beginning, and who as yet has no grasp of things.



To put it another way, the Greek idea of perfection is functional. A thing is perfect if fully realizes the purpose for which it was planned, designed and made. In point of fact, that meaning is involved in the derivation of the word. Teleios is the adjective formed from the noun telos. Telos means an end, a purpose, an aim, a goal. A thing is teleios if it achieves the purpose for which it is planned; human beings are perfect if they achieve the purpose for which they were created and sent into the world.



Let us take a very simply analogy. Suppose in my house there is a loose screw, and I want to tighten and adjust this screw. I go out and I buy a screwdriver. I find that the screwdriver exactly fits the grip of my hand; it is neither too large nor too small, too rough nor too smooth. I lay the screwdriver on the slot of the screw and the screw is fixed. In the Greek sense, and especially in the NT sense, that screwdriver is teleios, because it exactly fulfilled the purpose for which I desired and bought it.


So, people will be teleios if they fulfill the purpose for which they were created. For what purpose were human beings created? The Bible leaves us in no doubt as to that. In the old creation story in the RSV translation, we find God saying: ‘Let us make man in our image after our likeness’ (Genesis 1:26). Human beings were created to be like God. The characteristic of God is this universal benevolence, this unconquerable goodwill, this constant seeking of the highest good of every individual. The great characteristic of God is love to saint and to sinner alike. No matter what we do to him, God seeks nothing but our highest good.



Edward Denny’s hymn has it of Jesus:

Thy foes might hate, despise, revile,
Thy friends unfaithful prove;
Unwearied in forgiveness still,
Thy heart could only love.



It is when we reproduce in our lives the unwearied, forgiving, sacrificial benevolence of God that we become like God, and are therefore perfect in the NT sense of the word. To put it at its simplest, those men and women who care most for others are the most perfect.



It is the whole teaching of the Bible that we attain our humanity only by becoming Godlike. The one thing which makes us like God is the love which never ceases to care for others, no matter what they do to it. We fulfill our humanity; we enter upon Christian perfection, when we learn to forgive as God forgives, and to love as God loves. – Professor William Barclay

[Levi Jones]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Thank you Levi.

You're welcome, friend. I think it's wonderful that you are studying the Word so hard and trying to understand it, but wouldn't you be happier not going down this road?

Many who go down it are irretrievably lost to the Lord. They start with an open mind that they will discover the truth whether it is good, bad or indifferent and then they start to think that it is irreconcilable.

Just remember Shimei, if it ever looks like the Bible is wrong or contradictory, it's your fault. Nothing ever is God's fault. That is the first rule of textual criticism of apologists like us. If you write enough words and read longer explanations than the text you are reading itself, you can make the pain in your head go away.