[Moses16]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

God didn't give us rational thinking or reason! After all, we all believe in him, don't we? That must be why he hates it so much. If we didn't have it, we wouldn't believe in him.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I would say it's quite the opposite. Many more Christians are accepting evolution and that the earth is billions of years old in the face of overwhelming evidence.

.We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world_hypothesis

Take the example of the zebra, horse and donkey. They can still interbreed, but their offspring are almost always sterile.

They were at one time the same species.

For crying out loud. Humans still have the remnant of a vestigial tail. We still have the same number of teeth as other primates though our mouth no longer fits them all (wisdom teeth). We are one of the very few creatures on the planet that cannot produce its own vitamin c.

Hi Samuel
It maybe true that many Christians are taking some of the scientists offerings.
But that doesn't make it correct that they are doing so. It just means they are being duped by the scientific community ( the idea that you prove first, but the scientist don't use that with the start to life or 'evolution'. It is an emotional issue with them) It also means that their faith in God is in a weakened state.
Because they do this does not mean the scientists are correct. The facts are still the same.
People call the time we are living in the information age.
I like to call it the misinformation age.
It is a deliberate attempt to mislead people.

[Moses16]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I would say it's quite the opposite. Many more Christians are accepting evolution and that the earth is billions of years old in the face of overwhelming evidence.

.We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world_hypothesis

Take the example of the zebra, horse and donkey. They can still interbreed, but their offspring are almost always sterile.

They were at one time the same species.

For crying out loud. Humans still have the remnant of a vestigial tail. We still have the same number of teeth as other primates though our mouth no longer fits them all (wisdom teeth). We are one of the very few creatures on the planet that cannot produce its own vitamin c.

Maybe so, but that's not Christianity anymore. That's a whole different religion.

[Samuel Coleridge]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Hi Samuel
It maybe true that many Christians are taking some of the scientists offerings.
But that doesn't make it correct that they are doing so. It just means they are being duped by the scientific community ( the idea that you prove first, but the scientist don't use that with the start to life or 'evolution'. It is an emotional issue with them) It also means that their faith in God is in a weakened state.
Because they do this does not mean the scientists are correct. The facts are still the same.
People call the time we are living in the information age.
I like to call it the misinformation age.
It is a deliberate attempt to mislead people.

Maybe so, but that's not Christianity anymore. That's a whole different religion.

This is just sad that there are Christians who want to bring the world back to the middle ages.

You both honestly believe the earth was created in six days?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Take the example of the zebra, horse and donkey. They can still interbreed, but their offspring are almost always sterile.

They were at one time the same species.

For crying out loud. Humans still have the remnant of a vestigial tail. We still have the same number of teeth as other primates though our mouth no longer fits them all (wisdom teeth). We are one of the very few creatures on the planet that cannot produce its own vitamin c.

There are also the the Liger ( tiger and lion ) still all cats, but can't go any further. There is a barrier. ( from the DNA)

Because many animals are similar does not mean one came from another. I explained before if you make millions of animals why would you start from scratch for every one. After all many animals have teeth , many have bones , and blood and brain material, muscles etc. The evidence we have today is that a dog will produce more dogs. No matter how different a dog is from another in looks.
Actually the scientists have about 24 different ideas what a species is. So really they don't know that either.

Main article: Species problem


The Greenish Warbler demonstrates the concept of a ring species.
It is surprisingly difficult to define the word "species" in a way that applies to all naturally occurring organisms, and the debate among biologists about how to define "species" and how to identify actual species is called the species problem. Over two dozen distinct definitions of "species" are in use amongst biologists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

[Samuel Coleridge]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

There are also the the Liger ( tiger and lion ) still all cats, but can't go any further. There is a barrier. ( from the DNA)

Because many animals are similar does not mean one came from another. I explained before if you make millions of animals why would you start from scratch for every one. After all many animals have teeth , many have bones , and blood and brain material, muscles etc. The evidence we have today is that a dog will produce more dogs. No matter how different a dog is from another in looks.

Scientists didn't even realize that domestic dogs were the same species as wolves until fairly recently.

Besides I thought you fundies were all about "microevolution" to explain how Noah's ark could have happened.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

This is just sad that there are Christians who want to bring the world back to the middle ages.

You both honestly believe the earth was created in six days?

I went over this in one of the treads, but the bible says in the
beginning God created the heavens and earth. This was before any of the creative days.
No time barrier here.
Also the creative 'days' were time periods, they were just ages when most of that type of creation was done.
There is no conflict with the scientists guess what the time is for all the universe.

[Samuel Coleridge]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I went over this in one of the treads, but the bible says in the
beginning God created the heavens and earth. This was before any of the creative days.
No time barrier here.
Also the creative 'days' were time periods, they were just ages when most of that type of creation was done.
There is no conflict with the scientists guess what the time is for all the universe.

Then why doesn't the Bible say they are periods? Why does the Bible use the literal Hebrew word day? Also, what would be the "day of rest?" The period where no evolution or change is happening?

[Katander]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

And why should He. He is God, He can do whatever He pleases.

You are very right sir. Thats why its useless to argue religion with non rational thinkers, cause in the end that is the their final justification, "God does what he pleases" end of story.

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Hi Bogdana


Abiogenesis, the theory is getting closer to creation all the time. They just haven't figured out the creation part of it yet. You are correct scientist do not know or have any good theories about how life started. The problem is that even a so called simple cell is not simple and it all has to be together before any of it works.

Apparently your reading comprehension skills are low. I said - ONLY A VERY FEW SCIENTISTS ADVOCATE ABIOGENESIS. It has nothing to do with evolution, no matter what your preacher tells you.

none of the researchers have provided scientists with a very satisfying story about how this happened.

Yuhp, you're right. It was the magical man in the sky who did it!

The statement was dogs always produce dogs. In your statement you agreed with that. But there is a large variety of dogs. This comes about from natural means by breeding ,and intelligent means, with a goal in mind. But they are always, dogs. Darwin observation of Finch's reveal, that Finch's are always Finch's . Though adaptability, can play into this , depending on conditions.

Of course that's what Darwin observed. Darwin was only alive for a few decades. Major evolutionary changes of species would require billions of years.

This of course is the opinion from scientists don't even know how life could get started and are just in the infancy of understanding how the world and universe work.

Yes, exactly.

Those are not transitional fossils. they are completed animals. The transitional ones are the ones that have partially formed legs for example. These bits and pieces , placed in wrong area's of the body. Legs coming out of the back , or head or where ever 'Evolution' is not planed, it's a mutation, which means it's a mistake that has to be tried out, to see if it helps the host. So 'evolution' doesn't know it needs 2 eyes the correct distance apart to see depth of field. Now when it comes to an eye for example, the bone structure for another eye has to be in the correct place. But that is totally different than the eye ball and muscles, for the eye it also has to be placed correctly with the bone structure. This also has to be wired for the brain and brain has to know what to do with this. This all had to happen correctly the first time or it is useless.
What all this means is that this should all be in the fossil record. But it is not there. Even Darwin knew this, and said if these transitional fossil were not found , his theory would not stand up.
Today with many more fossils found, there still is no transitional ones. Scientists say they will likely never be found , because these transitional fossils should be in a much larger number than completed animals. And the fossil record should show that percentage now.
The interesting part of this is that what the scientists have found in the fossil record, supports creation, because what you would expect to find in the fossil record is completed animals. That is what is found.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Transitional_form

A record from:

Invertebrates to Fish


Jawless fish to shark


Jawless fish to bony fish


Fish to amphibian


Primitive to modern amphibians


Amphibian to reptile


Early reptile to turtle


Early reptile to diapsid (dinosaurs and modern reptiles except for turtles)


Reptile to mammal


Dinosaur to bird


Primates

• Darwinius masillae -- a link between earlier primates and later ones.

Cetaceans

• Ambulocetus-- an early whale that looks like a mammalian version of a crocodile
• Indohyus -- a proto-whale.
• Basilosaurus -- transition from early marine whales (Indohyus) to modern whales
• Dorudon -- Another candidate for transition from early whales to modern whales
• Zeuglodon -- a whale-like cetacean with vestigial limbs

Primate to human


Transitional plant fossils

• Williamsonia -- an early flowering plant ("stem angiosperm").

Check it out, and go to the sources too for more info!

Something else should be noted. If you are a creator and you are going to create millions of animals and many of them with very similar traits, would you not use DNA make an animal and make a slight change and make another? ( scientists do that with computer programs now) Why would you start over from scratch, for each animal?

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you thought God was an all-powerful being who could do absolutely anything instantly with no effort whatsoever. Why wouldn't God want to make it even more obvious how wonderful and unique his creation was?

And why did God create the world billions of years ago (as you say) and create all of these creatures to live on the earth and go extinct before mankind was placed on the earth, and why do the animal fossils always seem to be simpler the further back you go?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Then why doesn't the Bible say they are periods? Why does the Bible use the literal Hebrew word day? Also, what would be the "day of rest?" The period where no evolution or change is happening?

That is an important part of the bible. It is written in such away that only the ones to he gives it. This is important, because of the different times we live in. Different parts of the prophecies are fulfilled at different times. It is done a need to know basis.

1 Corinthians 2:6-12 (King James Version)

6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
This may be a little difficult for ones maybe not really used the old English. But this is what most of the people like to use. So I use it.
So these verses mention the hidden wisdom. That is hidden from the world,( that means government official's.) Do you notice it said it said that they would not harm Jesus.
In other words Jesus had to fulfil that role of dying for mankind. So if they knew what the scriptures meant they would not have done that. Many of the occurrences, of events back then in bible times also have a meaning for us today , or parallels for us today. So this is also valuable today also. I think this is an extremely cleaver way of doing it. The bible hides the information right under there noses. Within the words that many religions read each day.

[BelieverInGod]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Scientists didn't even realize that domestic dogs were the same species as wolves until fairly recently.

Besides I thought you fundies were all about "microevolution" to explain how Noah's ark could have happened.

They're not the same species.

Wolf = Canis Lupus
Dog = Canis Familiaris

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Hi Bogdana

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you thought God was an all-powerful being who could do absolutely anything instantly with no effort whatsoever. Why wouldn't God want to make it even more obvious how wonderful and unique his creation was?

And why did God create the world billions of years ago (as you say) and create all of these creatures to live on the earth and go extinct before mankind was placed on the earth, and why do the animal fossils always seem to be simpler the further back you go?

What makes you think he did things instantly? If you think rationally on this, the earth would have been a barren rocky place. This rock and dust would have to turn into good usable soil. So small plants would be created, but why would he create the same thing all over the earth. So this little plant would start to spread, it may take thousands of years for it to spread all over the earth. But once that little plant got a good foot hold other plants were added in the same way. Also allowed to spread. then grasses, trees etc. This could have taken millions of years to happen. This same process would be for useful for the atmosphere also. Because it would have to be changed also. And as you say the fossils seem simpler the farther the way back you go in time.
As animal types of life would be created, when conditions were suitable for them. Even the symbiotic relationship between some plants and animals.

Now about animals that went extinct. As more and more plants lived and died the soil and atmosphere became better for larger animals. These animals became very large. ( dinosaurs) They would help in cultivating large trees, and when they died they would replenish and enrich the soil. Now to keep these animals in check there were predators and so on. Now this would go on for a long time. And the atmosphere and the soil would be getting better all the time.
But then when their purpose was fulfilled, they died out. It is a good thing they are not still around today. But they did fulfill a purpose.


Creation is all about rational thinking.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

A record from:

Invertebrates to Fish


Jawless fish to shark


Jawless fish to bony fish


Fish to amphibian


Primitive to modern amphibians


Amphibian to reptile


Early reptile to turtle


Early reptile to diapsid (dinosaurs and modern reptiles except for turtles)


Reptile to mammal


Dinosaur to bird


Primates

Darwinius masillae -- a link between earlier primates and later ones.

Cetaceans

Ambulocetus-- an early whale that looks like a mammalian version of a crocodile
Indohyus -- a proto-whale.
Basilosaurus -- transition from early marine whales (Indohyus) to modern whales
Dorudon -- Another candidate for transition from early whales to modern whales
Zeuglodon -- a whale-like cetacean with vestigial limbs

Primate to human


Transitional plant fossils

Williamsonia -- an early flowering plant ("stem angiosperm").
Check it out, and go to the sources too for more info!

Where is the rational for this?

If I plant a cherry tree I get a cherry tree that produces cherries.
Because there were different plants in history than now, doesn't mean one came from another. That is the circular thinking that the scientists have to come up with because they are pushing the non creator theory ( to try to explain the variety we have.)
Actually today we would see all life in a state of horrendous parts and bits that would be tested out in the real world. But that is not what we see. Also mutations are usually bad for the host, not beneficial, and they do not make a dog something other than a dog.

So where is the scientists evidence, in the real world today?
Where is their reason or rational?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Primate to human

The search from the scientists, to try to link primates to humans has been littered with frauds, great claims of finding the missing links, to those links going out quietly, because they are not linked with humans, to still searching for the missing links.
Is this the scientists, with actually facts ( proof), or is this doing anything they can to try and show their theories correct. But in the end can't. This is 150 years of science pushing this, and still no evidence.

What this really is, is a direct effort to misinform people of where the truth is.

And many have taken the bait, with hook, line and sinker.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (King James Version)

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The god of this world is Satan. Notice it says blinded the people who do not believe, and that don't support God's son Jesus.

It's not that the scientists are stupid, it is that they are blinded. And do not have the ability of rational thought. Of course that is not all scientists, some know that what they are saying is not correct.