[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

It is only unproductive because you fail to see that God can use His omnipotence as He pleases. He is not obligated to use His omnipotence in a manner that you may desire.
It is a serious error to say that Jesus is impotent because He does not use His power in this particular way or that particular way. AFAIK, impotence refers to someone who is powerless and unable to take effective action. Jesus was not powerless.
There are certain things that God does not do. For example, He will not make a stone He cannot lift. He will not make a triangle that is not a triangle. It does not mean that God is impotent.

Fine,

One more question. How do you justify the Catholic position that God can make Himself (as Jesus) present in bread that contains wheat gluten but not in bread that does not contain wheat gluten? Why is the first thing something that God does do and the second one a thing He does not do? What is the "solum Triticum aestivum" doctrine actually based on? What is the document that has made the Catholic leaders confident that gluten-free does not work but gluten does? That is the issue here. Unless you provide us with the actual evidence that gluten works as Jesus but gluten-free does not we go back to the thing that I desperately try to explain to you!

• It becomes an unsubstantiated claim. Not only by you but by the whole Catholic Church
• That claim includes the notion that Jesus can appear in wheat but not in rice or corn flour-derived products. This is a position that has to based on something else and not only an opinion.
• That makes Jesus a laughing stock.
• If you fail to have Biblical evidence that only wheat works (and that the passages that oppose the whole transubstatiation notion can be dismissed), this new Catholic commandment of Triticum only is just another opinion and not fact.

We certainly know that God employs His omnipotence exactly as He pleases. In fact, we thrive where you failed, as we can give you Biblical evidence of this.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

You could have done at least that much to justify your position. Why did you not do that? Why did you not bother?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

Thank you. Your post is an excellent example of the unproductive argumentation scheme

It is only unproductive because you fail to see that God can use His omnipotence as He pleases. He is not obligated to use His omnipotence in a manner that you may desire.
It is a serious error to say that Jesus is impotent because He does not use His power in this particular way or that particular way. AFAIK, impotence refers to someone who is powerless and unable to take effective action. Jesus was not powerless.
There are certain things that God does not do. For example, He will not make a stone He cannot lift. He will not make a triangle that is not a triangle. It does not mean that God is impotent.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

Hitherto, you've been expressing your opinions as simple assertions, as "facts"... Personal opinions and feelings are not proof. If an adequate number of people have a similar opinion, it may become a hypothesis. You're still far from that. If the hypothesis is interesting enough it may be tested by examining the Bible against it, and by assessing if there is support to the hypothesis...

A simple dismissal of all this by your confirmation bias may keep you satisfied but it will not help you persuade others of your opinion...

Unsubstantiated claims will receive no further replies from yours Truly™.

No it does not. God can choose to use His omnipotence as he pleases.
For example, Jesus could have chosen an apple instead of bread at the Last Supper. He did not choose to do so. It does not mean that He is impotent.

Thank you. Your post is an excellent example of the unproductive argumentation scheme I described in my post above. I will pursue this further by praying for you, as it must be more effective than our efforts to make you understand the difference between opinion and evidence.

Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

While this sentence of yours in quite nice the issue we're discussing is how the Catholic claims make Jesus impotent by His failing to turn into (from your viewpoint) functional tool of Salvation without gluten. That is undermining omnipotence.

No it does not. God can choose to use His omnipotence as he pleases.
For example, Jesus could have chosen an apple instead of bread at the Last Supper. He did not choose to do so. It does not mean that He is impotent.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

Not impotent and omnipotent are two different things.

While this sentence of yours in quite nice the issue we're discussing is how the Catholic claims make Jesus impotent by His failing to turn into (from your viewpoint) functional tool of Salvation without gluten. That is undermining omnipotence.

Your sentence is, however, most revealing. Before I go on, please take into consideration the following points:

1. You are entitled to your opinion.
2. If you state your opinion somewhere and other people disagree, that does not represent persecution from the others.

Now we can discuss how information is presented in a way that can be taken seriously. Hitherto, you've been expressing your opinions as simple assertions, as "facts". These opinions have not been justified by practically any other material except your opinion. This type of argumentation is fundamentally fallacious as it only rests upon an unknown authority (you; it's called ad verecundiam, "appeal to authority"). It is a testimonial and not a coherent argument. Furthermore, you're cherry picking (heavily). You only choose verses that appeal to you and you only choose to reply to some tiny parts of others' posts that you can somehow assess. This is called confirmation bias: only choosing the data that feels nice and supports your opinions, dismissing the arguments (perhaps unintentionally as these biases are mostly processed at the subconscious level) that are too hard by simply ignoring them or (as in the quote above) by brushing them off with another unsubstantiated claim, a simple sentence with no reference to anything reliable.

All this does not mean that your argument would be wrong. In fact, in philosophy, you cannot prove an absolute negative. But as long as you're making claims, the burden of proof is on you. When you give no material to assess the veracity of your claim, be not surprised if people just don't by it immediately.

What is proof? Personal opinions and feelings are not proof. If an adequate number of people have a similar opinion, it may become a hypothesis. You're still far from that. If the hypothesis is interesting enough it may be tested by examining the Bible against it, and by assessing if there is support to the hypothesis. You fail to provide the support. We, however, have given your opinions more prestige than they deserve by actually doing the stuff of comparing them to God's Word. A simple dismissal of all this by your confirmation bias may keep you satisfied but it will not help you persuade others of your opinion. You need to:

1. Make a clear hypothesis of your statement ("Jesus can be omnipotent while not being able to process gluten-free products into His body").
2. Search data.
3. Remember to search also data that do not support your position.
4. Admit to yourself if your hypothesis was wrong.
5. If you find more support than opposing data for your hypothesis, explain the process, the sources, the path you followed, and also mention the opposing sources as if you don't, someone else will. Not dismissing the data that disagree can make your conclusions stronger, not weaker.

The problem is that it is much easier and nicer to just state hollow opinions than the products of an actual cognitive process. Please be informed that everyone on our Godly Forum will thrive in intelligent conversation about Jesus. Unsubstantiated claims will receive no further replies from yours Truly(tm).

Please remember that we've already assessed the Bible and found it compatible with our Faith™ and vice versa. The Bible is and remains our authority and other sources, such as tradition , Apocrypha, historical remains and secular observations always come second. Finally, let us see how the Bible feels about the procedure I described above:

1 Kings 18:21
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

We follow God. What entity do the Catholics follow?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

Dear Dstone,

You're equivocating. Your claim is that "performing miracles & having power over death" = being omnipotent. That does not meet the criteria for omnipotence. Miracles can be performed by people who are not omnipotent.

Acts 4:14-16
And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.

Other people have had power over death.

2 Kings 4:32-25
And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed. He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD. And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.

Yet these people were impotent when it came to being omnipotent. Now you see that you've committed the fallacy of equivocation by making your own definition by two criteria and dismissing other things. Gluten as a tool for the Eucharist was not among your criteria. Try harder, dear aspiring sinner. May you find Jesus!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

Not impotent and omnipotent are two different things.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

...Catholics teach that Jesus is impotent is false because Catholics teach that Jesus performed miracles and that He had power over death.

Dear Dstone,

You're equivocating. Your claim is that "performing miracles & having power over death" = being omnipotent. That does not meet the criteria for omnipotence. Miracles can be performed by people who are not omnipotent.

Acts 4:14-16
And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.

Other people have had power over death.

2 Kings 4:32-25
And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed. He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD. And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.

Yet these people were impotent when it came to being omnipotent. Now you see that you've committed the fallacy of equivocation by making your own definition by two criteria and dismissing other things. Gluten as a tool for the Eucharist was not among your criteria. Try harder, dear aspiring sinner. May you find Jesus!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

So why have you spent ZERO time on this thread pointing out where the "lie and slander" is, or what the truth of matter is?

Bitches about being prevented from doing something that he hasn't been prevented from doing.

Plus ils changes...



Oh, so vicious. Call the waaaaaahmbulance, snowflake. Or, actually justify your points, instead of just repeat the same irrelevant crap ad nauseum.


It's not ad hominem if it's true, and germane to his subject, which is your lack of understanding.


Protip for all the wannabe keyboard lawyers out there: slander is oral, not written.


Didn't you just accuse someone of ad hominem?


Oh, more personal opinion masquerading as facts. I'm shocked etc...

Basically, you have said nothing of relevance to the topic. And you have not addressed my contention - which is that the claim that Catholics teach that Jesus is impotent is false because Catholics teach that Jesus performed miracles and that He had power over death.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

When people lie and slander a religion or people...

So why have you spent ZERO time on this thread pointing out where the "lie and slander" is, or what the truth of matter is?

...then it is only right that the other side has a chance to set things right.

Bitches about being prevented from doing something that he hasn't been prevented from doing.

Plus ils changes...

Another vicious...

Oh, so vicious. Call the waaaaaahmbulance, snowflake. Or, actually justify your points, instead of just repeat the same irrelevant crap ad nauseum.

...ad hominem...

It's not ad hominem if it's true, and germane to his subject, which is your lack of understanding.

...slander...

Protip for all the wannabe keyboard lawyers out there: slander is oral, not written.

...You have not added anything worthwhile to the discussion by this childish personal attack...

Didn't you just accuse someone of ad hominem?

...It is simply false and a lie...

Oh, more personal opinion masquerading as facts. I'm shocked etc...

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

C'est parce qu'il ne comprend rien.

Another vicious ad hominem slander falsely claiming that I do not understand anything. You have not added anything worthwhile to the discussion by this childish personal attack.It is simply false and a lie to say that Catholics teach that Jesus is impotent. For one thing, Catholics teach and proclaim the Resurrection of Jesus, which Catholics believe shows that He had power over death.

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

But yours is good enough for you to invade someone else's forum...

When people lie and slander a religion or people who adhere to a particular religion, then it is only right that the other side has a chance to set things right.

[Roland]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

[...]

Plus ils change, plus sont les mêmes Catholiques.

C'est parce qu'il ne comprend rien. That however shouldn´t be a problem for him to become a Christian.

Kind regards,

Roland

[Didymus Much]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

...Our knowledge of the divine isimperfect...

But yours is good enough for you to invade someone else's forum and repeatedly tell them that they're wrong...

And when asked for the source of your obviously less imperfect knowledge, it's evade, evade, evade.

Plus ils change, plus sont les mêmes Catholiques.

[tomdstone]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

So show us the decoder ring you use to know the difference.

We are in a cave andcan see only the shadows on the wall. Our knowledge of the divine isimperfect although the various religions attempt to give us a betterunderstanding.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Catholics teach Jesus is impotent!

God does not always use His power in a way that you might want Him to use it.

So show us the decoder ring you use to know the difference.