[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

I'm retiring for the night; I'll pick this up tomorrow.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Hold it there friend.

What you are saying friend makes absolutely no sense from a Christian perspective; Jesus, Son of God, who willing suffered a brutal if temporary death for our sins over a long weekend was too afraid to tell The TRUTH to the world???? No friend, my faith says that is pure nonsense, to believe it is to spit in Jesus face, slap Him around, strip Him naked and then mock in public as a spineless coward. There is no way any good Christian could accept what you have just stated. Frankly I can not see how chaos among the Jews would have dissuaded Jesus, did He not prophesizes that the Romans would destroy the Temple and ruin the Jewish nation? Chaos was coming and since God is the ruler of all men it was the chaos God wanted.

I wasn't saying He was afraid, I'm saying that for the good of the world the truth was not to be revealed; humans could not handle the truth just then... and obviously they still can't. Perhaps in the coming apocalypse... I think we're all in for some surprises when that happens, even me.

Friend, for the sake of you soul you have to face The Truth; God is God threw the whole Bible. This exasperating insistence that we TRUE Christians somehow worship a false god is ridiculous.

You want to know what's ridiculous? Your entire belief system! It's so messed up and twisted, I can't believe anyone ever could believe it. Babies going to hell! Righteousness in rape, murder and torture! It goes against the morals of every sane person on the planet! It is beyond exasparating to see you all spew this filth. You're all taints that need to be WIPED OUT!

*Calms down* Sorry, I get like that sometimes. All this debate has got me riled up.

We have scripture behind us 110.10%. I’ve seen precious little from you.

Oh sure, you have the literal scriptures behind you, but I fear you do not understand the message of them, the spirit of them. The fact of the matter is, there is NOTHING in the New Testament that validates your beliefs... Jesus said to (paraphrase) "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and give unto God what is God's". If that's not a call for the separation of Church and State, I don't know what is. Unless you're saying that Jesus deliberately lied to decieve liberals, and that, my friend, is blasphemy.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Even when there is nothing in the Bible that says God secretly controls Satan? Who's interpreting now? Besides that, if Jesus said that Yahweh was false, then it would be as if the government had revealed they had secretly been dealing with aliens. Firstly, every Jew there ever was would have panicked or commited suicide or converted or something. Either that or a mob would have murdered Him and He wouldn't have had a chance to die on the cross. It would have been utter chaos. And God doesn't want chaos.

Hold it there friend.

What you are saying friend makes absolutely no sense from a Christian perspective; Jesus, Son of God, who willing suffered a brutal if temporary death for our sins over a long weekend was too afraid to tell The TRUTH to the world???? No friend, my faith says that is pure nonsense, to believe it is to spit in Jesus face, slap Him around, strip Him naked and then mock in public as a spineless coward. There is no way any good Christian could accept what you have just stated. Frankly I can not see how chaos among the Jews would have dissuaded Jesus, did He not prophesizes that the Romans would destroy the Temple and ruin the Jewish nation? Chaos was coming and since God is the ruler of all men it was the chaos God wanted.

Friend, for the sake of you soul you have to face The Truth; God is God threw the whole Bible. This exasperating insistence that we TRUE Christians somehow worship a false god is ridiculous. We have scripture behind us 110.10%. I’ve seen precious little from you.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

So instead of following the One True God, you prefer to make up your own Do-It-Yourself gods, and follow them. Gotcha.

Wouldn't it be easier to just say that you're an atheist? After all, making up a god to suit yourself is the same thing as worshipping yourself, anyway.

Actually I've found that it's easier for me to just pray to whatever aspect of God suits my needs at a given time. If, for example, I wish it to be sunny on a certain day, I'd pray to Ra, and if I wish for rain, the Mayan god Chac. Does it often work? Probably not. But it's been scientifically proven that the more people put their minds to something happening, the more likely it is to happen: in essence, prayer works. So no, I don't make up gods, and I certainly am not a narcisist or athiest. How the hell did you come up with that conclusion anyway? Your logic is beyond my comprehension.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

God and Jesus are one and the same. And Yahweh is not God.

I told you, I'm a pagan. And I hate your god because his very actions go against every sense of morality and reason and justice ingrained in me, not from my parents, or from the liberal media, or from any outside source, but the morality and reason and justice I developed on my own, that was partially with me at birth, and partially developed from my own experiences.

So instead of following the One True God, you prefer to make up your own Do-It-Yourself gods, and follow them. Gotcha.

Wouldn't it be easier to just say that you're an atheist? After all, making up a god to suit yourself is the same thing as worshipping yourself, anyway.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Has it not already been explained to you that God and Jesus are one and the same?

Tell us, what religion do you follow, since you clearly hate God?

God and Jesus are one and the same. And Yahweh is not God.

I told you, I'm a pagan. And I hate your god because his very actions go against every sense of morality and reason and justice ingrained in me, not from my parents, or from the liberal media, or from any outside source, but the morality and reason and justice I developed on my own, that was partially with me at birth, and partially developed from my own experiences.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

So God's laws in the books Leviticus and Deuteronomy are just mere "allegories"? So then what? We can rip them out of The Bible and wipe our butts on them because they are just "nice little stories about God ordering us to stone sinners, that's all".

What is an allegory and what is real is very clear in the Bible IMHO

I wasn't saying the history in the Old Testament wasn't real, I believe Yahweh actually existed and ordered the Isrealites to invade Canaan on other places, but he was not a god.

Enough of this. Do you believe that God will strike me down, as he struck many in the Old Testament, if I put him to the test? For it is written, "you shall not put the Lord your God to the test". If I pray to him to strike me down if I am wrong and you are right, will he do it?

I'm the one whose read scripture here friend. I haven't seen any evidence of that from you.

I've read a decent amount, but definitely not as much as you, so I'm a little less knowledgeable than most of the veterans of this site.

God’s law is a “story”? Jesus specially says when He changes The Law.

It is a story. The entire book of Exodus is a story, perhaps true, perhaps semi-true, with many laws sprinkled in. Most holy texts from around the world are stories.

Yes, Hell is mentioned 64 times in The Bible, 39 times Old Testament. Remember we are talking God’s correct Holy Word here The King James Version 1611 and not some heretical so called bibles going around out there.

I believe in Hell, but as a place of Purgatory, not eternal damnation. An unbaptised or aborted baby goes to Hell just because they never accepted Jesus? Come off it! You must be insane.

a) It is against the law to stone people in The United States. While it as false, wicked law put up by Satan it is the law and we good and TRUE Christians are commanded to obey the law, as per Romans.

b) I would never be stoned because I have turned my life over to Jesus and He protects me from sinning. GLORY!

a) Well, I'm glad you obey. Obeying laws we don't like for the benefit of God's will is redemptive for the soul. I just pray I can take some of my own advice if and when the time comes.

b) Okay, put what if bin Laden should take over, and he won't, but what if he should, and implement Sha'ria (spelling?) law, and you end up being stoned anyway? What would you say then?


Oh yeah, can I ask you something? At what point in the Old Testament does God actually stop interacting physically with the Israelites?

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Oh wait, you did already explain it. But what I'm trying to say is, why should we follow the laws of a god who displays base human emotions and murders people, when his own commandments say not to murder, or be jealous of your neighbour? And Yahweh was jealous of neighbouring nations' gods. We should rather follow the example of Jesus, who only really got angry when certain heresies were committed (but certainly never damned or killed anyone for it), or when He was in severe pain.

Has it not already been explained to you that God and Jesus are one and the same?

Tell us, what religion do you follow, since you clearly hate God?

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Oh wait, you did already explain it. But what I'm trying to say is, why should we follow the laws of a god who displays base human emotions and murders people, when his own commandments say not to murder, or be jealous of your neighbour? And Yahweh was jealous of neighbouring nations' gods. We should rather follow the example of Jesus, who only really got angry when certain heresies were committed (but certainly never damned or killed anyone for it), or when He was in severe pain.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

As a Christian you have to believe God is all knowing. Just like a Christian believes Jesus is the Son of God as part of The Trinity. If you believe otherwise you are not a Christian. Therefore as a Christian I take it as read God knew what is going to happen and I do not need it stated.

As far as God thinking in all of this, how can we possibly understand it? While we are in His image He is vastly different than us in the perspective He works on.

Oh, I believe God is all-knowing all right, I just don't believe your god is all-powerful or all-knowing. The episode with Moses and the golden calf proves this. God was angry. Now why should he be angry if he knew this was to come? And why did he listen to Moses' reason? Save a people from slavery, just to murder them in the desert? If your god was perfect then he wouldn't have been angry in the first place. Your definition of perfect is messed up.

Friend, I assure I take salvation, damnation and Scripture will the dignity they deserve.

Now friend, if we were to accept your Christian Copy theory then what would that make Christianity? Some cheesy readers notes of the religious thinking of the ancient near east. That sounds like the thinking of a monkey worshiping Atheist, not a Christian. Now if you are talking about Catholic holidays and other nonsense, yes they are ripped off pagan ceremonies. But TRUE Christian law, ceremonies and thinking; that described in The Bible. Those came from God Himself. No, you can bet your soul that Satan did things like copy the Ten Commandments and give them to the ancient Egyptians so they would show up in their Books of the Dead before God gave them to Moses, just to mock God.

Right. I'll believe that. Even when all the evidence points to the fact that the Jews borrowed some of the Commandments from the Egyptians. Every ancient culture in the old world was ruled by the same precepts: submission to god(s), and violence against those who oppose you. Your True Christian(TM) Israelites were no different than the rest of them. In fact, the God one worships is all dependent on culture. If, say, the Egyptians had come out on top, we'd have Osiris as Jesus right now.

Eh? What are you? A Cathar? If the God of the Old Testament was a false God Jesus would have said so during His earthy ministry. While He changes something Jesus makes it very clear the remainder of the Old Testament is still intact. No were does the Gospels it even suggest anything like this.

What I am trying to say is Satan is doing what God specifically wants Satan to do.

Even when there is nothing in the Bible that says God secretly controls Satan? Who's interpreting now? Besides that, if Jesus said that Yahweh was false, then it would be as if the government had revealed they had secretly been dealing with aliens. Firstly, every Jew there ever was would have panicked or commited suicide or converted or something. Either that or a mob would have murdered Him and He wouldn't have had a chance to die on the cross. It would have been utter chaos. And God doesn't want chaos. You see, Jesus said He had not come to make the Mosaic Law obsolete, but subtly He was undermining its foundations. The Mosaic Law said "an eye for an eye", but Jesus said "turn the other cheek". Please explain this for me.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

What is there to think about? God and His co-third of the Trinity call for hatred and intolerance. I am not so arrogant, and as self centered as you are to claim I know better than God.

Assuredly you aren’t for sanctioning evil by passive acceptance?

Did I ever claim to know better than God? I claimed to know better than the false god that appears in the Old Testament. You must know it: we all of us have an ingrained sense of morality, for example, we feel revulsion at the sight of torture (or at least, we should). It was given to us by the real God. Yet, you claim we should kill and rape and torture the "unbelievers". Justify this.

If you friend believe Godly government would fail then you friend do not believe in Christ and are not a Christian like you claim. There is no way a bunch of mere mortal men could stop the Will of God. If they could that would mean God does not exist.

History has proven that ALL theocratic regimes fall. Look at the old kingdom of Israel, it was divided and conquered and the Jews were dispersed. Perhaps you will say that God had fated it to fall. If that is true than you will also say that the new theocratic regime to come will not be fated by God to fall. Well, we shall see if it falls- none of us can tell for now. Also I do not claim to be Christian. I'm a Pagan who believes that all gods are merely aspects of one God and in the message of Jesus Christ.

Sadly I was not raised by Fundamentalists friend. I was raised by permissive, liberal, east coast elite, blue collar, union membership Catholics and as about as far from Jesus as you could get. PRAISE JESUS He sent Pastor Al to save my soul from Hell.

Tell me friend, what made you convert? Did you have a bad experience with Catholicism? Were you raped by a priest as a child? Or was it simple fear of going to hell that made you convert?

Well friend, I guess your dark master Satan loses again.

Oh, silly fundie. How many times do you have to be told: if one does not worship Satan, one does not worship Satan. One does not passively accept anything, it's not all black and white. If I claim I do not worship Satan, but secretly worship him, then I do worship Satan. If I claim to worship Satan, but secretly do not, I do not worship him but in claiming so I corrupt those around me without meaning to. But I neither claim to worship Satan, nor do so, therefore I do not worship Satan.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Humoured him, did he? If the Old Testament is God's Word, then why does it say that God was actually angry, and not make any mention of the "fact" that God knew that he would not, in the end, destroy the Israelites? It never really says that God knew what was going to happen, it is only your interpretation that says so.

As a Christian you have to believe God is all knowing. Just like a Christian believes Jesus is the Son of God as part of The Trinity. If you believe otherwise you are not a Christian. Therefore as a Christian I take it as read God knew what is going to happen and I do not need it stated.

As far as God thinking in all of this, how can we possibly understand it? While we are in His image He is vastly different than us in the perspective He works on.

44835HAHAHA! Pre-stole? You're funny. More like the Christian church stole the ceremonies from Paganism, made them into Christian holidays. It's statements like that that make me wonder if you were lying when you said you take what you preach as serious as the flames of Hell.

Friend, I assure I take salvation, damnation and Scripture will the dignity they deserve.

Now friend, if we were to accept your Christian Copy theory then what would that make Christianity? Some cheesy readers notes of the religious thinking of the ancient near east. That sounds like the thinking of a monkey worshiping Atheist, not a Christian. Now if you are talking about Catholic holidays and other nonsense, yes they are ripped off pagan ceremonies. But TRUE Christian law, ceremonies and thinking; that described in The Bible. Those came from God Himself. No, you can bet your soul that Satan did things like copy the Ten Commandments and give them to the ancient Egyptians so they would show up in their Books of the Dead before God gave them to Moses, just to mock God.

I agree with your concept of angels as extensions of God. But how do you know that my God is Satan, and yours isn't? Can you really prove that Yahweh all those years ago wasn't actually Satan misleading Moses and his people?

Eh? What are you? A Cathar? If the God of the Old Testament was a false God Jesus would have said so during His earthy ministry. While He changes something Jesus makes it very clear the remainder of the Old Testament is still intact. No were does the Gospels it even suggest anything like this.

What I am trying to say is Satan is doing what God specifically wants Satan to do.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Do you really believe what you preach?

We are here to share the truth about what God has said in His Word. When have we done otherwise? Can you find an example?

You may note that the Pastors/Admins are all followers of Jesus. Would that be the case if they were just here to play games?

Now, before everyone rips on me for being liberal, I must begin by saying that I am more of a left-leaning centrist. In fact, I disagree with many of the typical liberal beliefs. I am pro-life, save for when a pregnancy is the product of rape or threatens the mother's life, and I'm pro-war, as even setting a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq sends the wrong message to our enemies.

Now that we've established some common ground, I have a few questions for you all. Why, pray, do you worship a false god? I, personally, will NOT submit to a jealous, vindictive, intolerant "god" as portrayed in the Old Testament. Your god is imperfect, as we see in this passage from Exodus Chapter 23:

Then why are you here?

God offers free choice. You can follow Him, and all His laws, or you can spend eternity in Hell, as He has promised in His Word. What could be more fair than that?

Yahweh repented! Dissuaded by a mere mortal! Now answer this if you will: imperfect anger aside, why would a "perfect" being make an imperfect judgement, and then repent?

Where did He say that His judgment was imperfect? He changed His mind.

Have you never changed your mind?

The first commandment, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", implies that there are indeed other gods. In fact, in Genesis' original translation, God says: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." Never in the Old Testament does it truly say that other gods are 'false', nor that they do not exist. Yet fundamentalists believe the old Pagan gods to have never existed. Explain this.

Simple. You are interpreting, rather than reading.

God did not want anyone making up gods and praying to them, because that takes the glory from Him. I thought you'd read the Bible?

They were praying to a golden calf, for crying out loud!

The Old Testament is rife with horrid punishments for mere small crimes. Do you really believe these laws to still apply in modern times? Remember, the Bible says "Do unto others..." Would you really have the whole town stone you for saying something blasphemous as a joke, or for stealing an ox out of need?

How many people steal an ox out of need? It's not like they're going to eat it.

Let's bear in mind that God is omniscient. He knows all past, present, AND FUTURE. If there were a time when He felt that particular laws would no longer be necessary, why would He not simply write in His Word, "These laws will no longer apply after 1963"?

Being omnipotent, God could also rewrite His Word at any point, were He so to choose. So why doesn't He just eliminate all those rules? Because they're all still in effect, just as Jesus said!

You would say to me, "human rights were invented in the garden of Eden by Satan", as certain writers hath said. Well, maybe I would rather follow your satan than your god. Indeed, the devil is very insidious. Have you never considered that Yahweh may have been satan in sheep's clothing? In my view, your god acts more like a devil than a god.

Nope, but that sounds awfully close to blasphemy.

Jesus said (paraphrase) "beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves". Now, this quote can easily be used against liberal Christians and people like me, but consider what he said next: "You will know them by their fruits." Our fruits are tolerance and peace. Your fruits are intolerance and religious violence. Think about it.

God is a God of War. Read your Bible.

We are commanded by God to kill those who will not follow Him; the only reason we don't kill more is because He also commands us to follow the laws of men. We are commanded by God that, when we invade and take a city, we are to kill all the non-virgin females and all the males of any age. Then we are to "marry" the virgin females. Some liberals call this "ethnic cleansing", but we call it Obeying God's Commands.

Our fruits are those which God/Jesus has commanded us to cultivate: The destruction of those who refuse to follow Him. Can you say the same? Show us where the Bible speaks of "tolerance".

Theocracy implies small or no freedom. Humans like freedom. If you establish a fascist theocracy, like you express the wish to, then the natural human need for freedom will eventually create rebellion, and your government will fall.

Humans like fornication and witchcraft too, that doesn't make them OK.

Those atheist Communist states are doing much better than the US, aren't they? (Oh, yeah. WHAT Communist states?)

Now, I have a theory as to why you believe as you do. Fear. It is an insidious emotion. It leads you to the conclusion that, if you do not believe in the false god of the Old Testament and the message of Jerry Falwell and his ilk, you will go to hell. The punishments offered by them are far greater than those of any religion, perhaps even Islamic fundamentalism. Thus in order to avoid hell you follow them. Perhaps you were raised by fundamentalist parents, racist and ignorant? Then I say to you: fight your fear. Fight your programming.

Contrary to your bigoted stereotyping, we are not a bunch of brain-dead rednecks incapable of reading a book. Why, I'm in the midst of Lee Stoebel's "The Case for Christ" right now! Perhaps you should read it . . . though I'm sure you'd be trying to find holes in Stoebel's story, and probably come here posting all about them.

Now I challenge you all: defend yourself and your beliefs.

P.S. If you ban me or otherwise censor it will just prove my point that your interpretation of the scripture is wrong and you don't want questions to be asked.

Your closing statement reflects the sort of people with whom you're accustomed to associating, not us. Look about our Forum. We have Wiccans and Pagans here, who are members in good standing. We even have a Catholic priest.

They are welcome here as long as they debate respectfully, as are you. We have nothing to hide here, since we teach from God's Word, and tell only the truth about God's Word.

[shol'va]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

You are still a nacey boy, tree hugging liberal to me sony; the only message God’s enemies is Iraq deservers’ is they can die, and GW Bush is the man to pull the trigger.

You have a right to your opinion...

Why was this an “imperfect judgment”? God loved Moses and Moses asked God not to squash the Jews like a bug. God, being all knowing, humored Moses like a favored child or pet. God also knew that the Jews were going to screw up again so He would have His Justice done anyway and God would have the pleasure of telling Moses “I told you so.”

Perhaps you need to be more opened minded friend.:mello:

Humoured him, did he? If the Old Testament is God's Word, then why does it say that God was actually angry, and not make any mention of the "fact" that God knew that he would not, in the end, destroy the Israelites? It never really says that God knew what was going to happen, it is only your interpretation that says so.

Pagan gods are just false gods put up by Satan. That is why many of their ceremonies resemble Godly Christian ceremonies butedate them. Satan pre-stole these things to mock Jesus.

Do you have problems with the obvious friend?

HAHAHA! Pre-stole? You're funny. More like the Christian church stole the ceremonies from Paganism, made them into Christian holidays. It's statements like that that make me wonder if you were lying when you said you take what you preach as serious as the flames of Hell.

You forget friend Satan is a fallen angel of God’s. What is an angel; it is an extension of God. Satan is not the anti-God but a construct of God’s to lead unsaved trash like you into sin. That is how God chooses to separate the righteous from the worthless.

I would like you to be one of the righteous friend.

I agree with your concept of angels as extensions of God. But how do you know that my God is Satan, and yours isn't? Can you really prove that Yahweh all those years ago wasn't actually Satan misleading Moses and his people?

Got to go again, I'll be finishing this later.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Unsaved trash spews garbage

Again, can you provide concrete proof?

Yes. But considering the complexity of the issue and your clear lack of understand, interest and even basic knowledge of the subject, what's the point of discussing it?

I am not going to waste 15 minutes of my life for one of your sulky, one sentence replies kiddo. Look it up on line yourself.