[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

The way someone's observations are treated by others—I've referred to Aquinas in this context in an earlier post—has no bearing on the observations themselves. In this case your 13th century priest was using some stuff from Aristotle, which would be his observation, but whether developed by pagans (Aristotle) or Romish heretics (Aquinas) does not change the facts. Now clearly these could be used to justify temple orgies or ruby-encrusted skeletons respectively according to the arguments cooked up but if the results contradict what God has already revealed, those arguments cannot be considered valid.

ACTS 17
22 Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious …
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands …
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Paul refers to external sources as matters of observation but does not apply arguments used by Aristotle or Epimenides or Democritus or Cleanthes or Epicurus any more than we are going to use the arguments of pagans or heretics ourselves. That doesn't mean we reject their observations. Another example would be germ theories of disease. That malaria exists is a fact. We know that Christians cannot "get" malaria because that is something God has promised. Whatever ways He chooses to use malaria however is a part of His design, otherwise why would he have created malaria in the first place? Without design there can be no malaria.

Let's compare it to your car. Probably made from metal—even if it's a plastic electric job I'm sure there'll still be metals in the motors or batteries—and certain to deteriorate; the wheels will rust or drop off from fatigue, the motors will burn out or blow up, the bodywork will crumble away whatever it's made from and even if it had an everlasting body eventually all the world's oil will run out and the car will be useless. I don't know what Corinthian leather is (I always specify wool for upholstery) but can assure you it's biodegradable and what use is a car without seats? And furthermore how many six-thousand-year-old cars are there? Or chariots? Or jet aircraft for that matter? None. And yet malaria has been around for that long and is still going strong! Clearly it's a better design than your car.

GENESIS 2
1a Thus the heavens and the earth were finished
1b and all the host of them.
2a And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made

God did not come back on Day Eight to make malaria and ebola. There was no Day Nine for leprosy and herpes and brain cancer. This is a point you should consider before launching off on a career denying God, contradicting Him, buying into abstruse theories in an effort to explain away observations clearly pointing to God. It is only through obedience that we avoid such plagues as He has designed. The extra-Biblical material is the fact that Christians do not become diseased. I don't want to seem picky here, but how do you account for that?

[Ex-Lion Tamer]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

[QUOTE=Bobby-Joe;609067]Atheists demand scientific proof God exists, as if The Bible isn't enough. Well here are six of them.

First off, I'm not an atheist, I'm truly glad you have your faith. At the same time, I don't think you would know science if it stuck its forked tongue up your overly-clenched buttocks. Let's dive in...

#1 First Cause.
There is no first cause without God. As Thomas Aquinas said "Nothing is caused by itself. Every effect has a prior cause. This leads to a regression of events were one thing caused another. Logically this regression has to be terminated by a first cause, which we call "God." God, by definition is the creator of the universe. So in short; the universe has a creator so therefor God exists.

I don't want to be picky here, but quoting a 13th century priest to validate science might be a touch off base. It could even lead soem to think that you *might* not be super hip to the latest science, but hey, screw them - right!

#2 Mountains of Evidence for Intelligent Design
One just has to look at diseases like Malaria, Salmonella and Ebola that kill millions by cunningly turn the bodies defenses against itself to know that there is an intelligence guiding the development of life. Something so insidiously complex as these diseases has to be a creation, not a random event and as we have already PROVEN that the creator is by definition God.

Malaria (and the others mentioned) are definitely scary and hard to understand, but wow - that's your 'go-to' for proof of intelligent design? A parasite that kills 3,000 children A DAY is the best you can do to prove there IS A GOD? I personally would have gone with light bulbs, or maybe my car. My car has a beautiful design, smooth lines, rich corinthian leather...gorgeous.

#3 Personal Observation.
Like many of Christians I have felt the presence of God in my life and heard His voice talking to me. Further more I have survived numerous attempts on my life in my job and escaped contracting AIDs even though I have to have contact with witches. I KNOW God exists.

Okay, now we've taken a turn. You are correct that 'observation' is part of the scientific method, but sadly 'felt the presence' and 'witches' fall more into the non-scientific realm. I'm not saying I haven't felt some witches in my time, or that I'm not thankful that I don't have AIDS, but when God is killing 3,000 children a day of malaria, it feels a little icky to bask in my good fortune.

#4 Heisenberg uncertainty principle
Since we can not prove anything exist in Quantum Mechanics we can't disprove anything. If we can't disprove God existence then logically God has to exist.

This one is 100% accurate - but for me, I would apply it to farts, not God. For instance, if I fart, and it smells really bad (more proof of intelligent design, amaright?), but then when my wife smells it, I say 'I didn't fart'. She knows there is a fart, but she can't prove it, so it must exist.

#5 The Law of Information
The Law of Information states that all coded information is the product of an intelligent being. DNA is such an example of coded information so logically DNA is the proof of an intelligent creator and not random chance. DNA is found in all living things. The only intelligent being capable of placing DNA in all living things is God.

Ouch. You're going to be very disappointed with my answer here. It seems that the Laws (yes, there is an 's') of Information are specifically called out BY DEFINITION as being unscientific. aw whatever, let's go break some laws!

#6 God is the greatest thing Imaginable,
Humans have never been able to imagine anything greater than God. Clearly we must have reason to imagine God. Further more something must be limiting our imaginations or we would come up with something greater than God. The only thing that can limit human imagination is God.

First, why just 6? I mean, this gobbledygook is so lacking in reality, you should have made a 1,000 - you at least would have had a fighting chance at accidentally being right. Anyway...this last one tells me one very clear thing - you have a really limited imagination. That surprises me, since everything you've said is make believe, but here we are. I personally think a dragon that grants wishes and likes to snuggle would be awesome, cause then I can fly places, smite my enemies and still chill with my magical power lizard.

There you have it. I await a random flurry of misspelled words that capture the essence of your emotions, while missing the breadth and wonder of humanity.

Dragon bless you.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

I believe in God and all, but using "we don't know how it happened yet, so god did it" isn't a very good argument to use if you wanted to convert people into your religion. Though, just because something hasn't been proved, doesn't automatically mean God *didn't* do it. It it would be silly to use lack of knowledge of something as an argument favoring God's existence.

I'm not sure which "God" you believe in and the cascading negatives may not have produced the meaning you intended. But we are not discussing “"we don't know how it happened"” we are discussing “we do know how it happened” which would be less confusing for you after reading The Bible.

Take the oscillating universe as an example. Those who claim this occurred (although it would still be occurring of course within that model) have no idea how it happened. They could propose that "antimatter" was some bits of the previously existing universe which carried through into this one.—.perhaps by quantum tunnelling to escape annihilation but if everything passes through a singularity periodically there would be no particles to annihilate during the passage because space for them to occupy would not exist.—.and that relative to the previous (antimatter) universe (which turned inside out to create this one) we are ourselves in an antimatter universe and that early inflation was due to a critical need for space, within the singularity, where particles could manifest in their inverted form. You might call this a theory of quantum momentum. We don't know how this happened or even if it happened but I've never heard it proposed as a proof for God.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

If God didn't exist, why would the Great State of Mississippi require school children to start the school day require with a "daily recitation of Ten Commandments"?

Checkmate, atheists!

[RyanTheM8ron]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

I believe in God and all, but using "we don't know how it happened yet, so god did it" isn't a very good argument to use if you wanted to convert people into your religion. Though, just because something hasn't been proved, doesn't automatically mean God *didn't* do it. It it would be silly to use lack of knowledge of something as an argument favoring God's existence.

[Johny Joe Hold]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

While I agree with most of these arguments, I do not find them to be scientific, per se.
1 and 6 are both common philosophical arguments.
2 is a valid way of looking at things.
3 is not scientific at its roots.
4 and 5 are based off gross misunderstandings of how these respective principles work.

Again, while 1, 2, 3, and 6 are all valid in some way, I would not consider them to be scientific, or extra-Biblical.

I don't if or where you went to school, but it was not a first rate place like Landover Baptist University.
To decide if an argument is scientific, it has to be testable. Each of the six is testable.
You say for example, the 1. and 6. are "philosophical arguments." What is the matter with you? They are testable. God was first, we have investigated. Then six, God is the greatest thing ever. Again, can you come up with someone greater?? I'm waiting. Of course not. We tested this and the answer was conclusive.
I could go on and shot down you other silliness, but I have more important things to do.

[tonystarkprime]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

While I agree with most of these arguments, I do not find them to be scientific, per se.
1 and 6 are both common philosophical arguments.
2 is a valid way of looking at things.
3 is not scientific at its roots.
4 and 5 are based off gross misunderstandings of how these respective principles work.

Again, while 1, 2, 3, and 6 are all valid in some way, I would not consider them to be scientific, or extra-Biblical.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

And yes, bacteria are living creatures (eukaryotes to be exactly), they eat and procreate, so they (of corse) have also needs

None of their needs includes Salvation. This thread was prayerfully started by a Brother in Christ who is challenging atheists to look seriously into their beliefs and consider whether or not they can hold up against the evidence. Clearly the answer is "No." Atheists cannot support their beliefs when asked to do so against evidence. They rely on blind faith and vague platitudes to reassure them in their times of doubt (which they all have, as that doubt is the soul's way of convicting them before their cold, black hearts silence it again).

Paganism attracts perverts, homosexuals, druggies, drunks, feminists, atheists, liberals, communists, emo kids, goths, lesbians, and pedophiles because it allows them to live perverted lifestyles. Paganism is a sick and violent belief system that seeks only to justify perverted behaviors. Why you focus on single celled organisms and ignore your immortal soul would be a mystery if pagans weren't so darned predictable.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

Yes, I actually wanted to, but in this wonderful forum there are no such letters as the letter Eth allowed, in case you didn't know that. And so I had to use the English/German equivalent, and this equivalent has to be preposed.

And yes, bacteria are living creatures (eukaryotes to be exactly), they eat and procreate, so they (of corse) have also needs

Dear Brünnhilde,

I am most delighted that you continue asking for advice. It is of course of bit tedious but if it helps you find Jesus, I'm here to assist you.

As you can see (-> Óðinn <-) there's absolutely nothing in this Godly Forum (I am very happy that you like it here) to prevent you from using the letter "eth" or "ð". This must be a question of a deficient keyboard or inadequate copy-paste skills. I'll let this pass as you are here to learn.

Titus 3:14
And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Obviously, no-one has been questioning if bacteria (prokaryotes, incidentally, as they have no nuclear envelope nor organelles unlike eukaryotes) have requirements or metabolic needs for survival. The issue was if they have emotional needs, if they "want to live". It is not a fruitful way to carry on a discussion by making making straw man arguments. Fortunately, Jesus has told us to avoid this trap and not to sidestep into irrelevancies when we can go on worshipping Him!

2 Timothy 2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Incidentally, do you think that Brünnhilde's immolation scene is a good depiction of your pagan Faith?

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Odin'sValkyrja]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

Yes, I actually wanted to, but in this wonderful forum there are no such letters as the letter Eth allowed, in case you didn't know that. And so I had to use the English/German equivalent, and this equivalent has to be preposed.

And yes, bacteria are living creatures (eukaryotes to be exactly), they eat and procreate, so they (of corse) have also needs

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

Dear Miss Brünnhilde (I know you may prefer the Old Norse Brynhildr but more about that at the bottom, please be patient), please try to think outside your comfort zone and you'll be pleasantly surprised how inevitable and necessary it is to believe in Jesus Christ our Lord!

#1: First: Christianity is not the only religion with a creation myth. second: The big Bang can also be seen as a cause

I do find it promising that you consider the Big Bang hypothesis to be a myth, as well. This confirms our notion that "atheism" is just a mythical religion intended to mock Christianity and plot against Jesus.

Psalms 74:18
Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, O LORD, and that the foolish people have blasphemed thy name.

Of course, while there are many myths (and we're well aware of this), there is only one True™ Story of the Beginning of everything (Genesis 1:1).

#2: Human beings aren't the only form of life, bacteria and viruses are also living creatures. And every creature wants to live, and they need others to do so (What would you want to eat if not another creature? Air? Water? Love?).

While there is a long-standing controversy on the living/non-living nature of viruses, let us humor you and assess the rest of this claim of yours. Do you really attach emotions of "wanting" to bacteria without any system of consciousness nor reactions beyond those of simple receptor interactions and intracellular signalling? Do they "want" anything?

Furthermore, I really really do not live by food alone. There are other things that men have to consume, so the answer to the question regarding air and Love as sustenance is an emphatic affirmative:

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

#3: Personal=subjective=non scientific

As long as the World has been Created by a subjective entity, One Single God (with the Trinitarian threesome manifestations), we have to accept His subjectivity as the only possible manifestation of our material existence.

Mark 12:32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

#4: A wonderful textbook case for a paralogism. Just because something isn't proved, does not mean it's true. It can also be disproved in the future when the standard of knowledge is further developed.

Your claim can only be applied to Earthly phenomena, but not to Jesus Christ™ who is unchanging. This is also clearly stated in the Source of Correct Knowledge:

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6
For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

#5: The DNA got developed throughout evolution. It consists of amino acids. Another paralogism again (you seem to love those). It can be explained purely by science/biology.

Now we're talking! Based on this claim I can understand that you might be sincere but just miserably uneducated, which is not necessarily any fault of yours only but can be caused by an inferior schooling system in wherever you reside.

DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) does not consist of amino acids. It consists of a sugar-phosphate backbone with attached nucleotides (A, T, G, C) that makes up two long strands that form together the glorious double helix Created by God (Genesis 1:21); a molecule that actually contains God's Signature (there's some extra-Biblical evidence for atheists)! DNA (according to the disproved atheist hypothesis) is actually the thing that is responsible for evolution but developed (RNA first and then presumably DNA usurped the coding power with reverse transcriptase). It is more like the start point than the end result of evolution (again, within the hypothetical atheist mind frame).

That said, I appreciate that you make a difference between science (mathematics, engineering, philosophy, Babelian linguistics) and biology, which is the unfortunate by-product caused by the Fall (Genesis 3:6) soon to be replaced by Eternal Joy and Existence in Heaven!

1 Corinthians 15:40
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

#6: The reason for imagining/creating a god is the fear of death and what will come after it

Why would we fear death! We long for it! It will be the most glorious day of my life but I dare not hasten it as it is up to Jesus to decide when I get the ticket to embrace Him in Heaven!

Ecclesiastes 7:17
Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time?

Now, Miss Valkyrie, please choose Jesus over the pagan God. Incidentally, why have you chosen the modern neo-pagan name of the demon Odin but the Old Norse Valkyrja? Would it not be more consistent to stick to Old Norse (Valkyrja Óðins; Icelandic and Old Norse would prefer the genitive after the possessed) or - if you're really interested in Germanic mythology - use the Proto-Germanic reconstruction Wōđanaz?



But, now you can sashay off and do what you Valkyrie enjoy the most - I surmise it is breaking glass with your piercing voices used as weapons!

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Odin'sValkyrja]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

#1: First: Christianity is not the only religion with a creation myth. second: The big Bang can also be seen as a cause

#2: Human beings aren't the only form of life, bacteria and viruses are also living creatures. And every creature wants to live, and they need others to do so (What would you want to eat if not another creature? Air? Water? Love?).

#3: Personal=subjective=non scientific

#4: A wonderful textbook case for a paralogism. Just because something isn't proved, does not mean it's true. It can also be disproved in the future when the standard of knowledge is further developed.

#5: The DNA got developed throughout evolution. It consists of amino acids. Another paralogism again (you seem to love those). It can be explained purely by science/biology.

#6: The reason for imagining/creating a god is the fear of death and what will come after it

There wasn't much science involved in your 6 facts..

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

Then what is God's first cause? Thomas Aquinas said that "Nothing is caused by itself." "Nothing" implies no exceptions. Therefore Aquinas' line of reasoning must be faulty.

Before anyone rushes off to read Thomas Aquinas I should point out that he is a catholic.

Well, obviously Aquinas is dead but his writings remain. Popes down the ages have declared that Aquinas is still alive and might even have his corpse somewhere to kneel before and pray at - I don't know. But that is what papists do and they think that proves the deceased "saint" is still alive. Aquinas’ "logic" is a part of that. Here's a Romish assessment:

http://home.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm
St. Thomas Aquinas
He died on 7 March, 1274. Numerous miracles attested his sanctity, and he was canonized by John XXII, 18 July, 1323. The monks of Fossa Nuova were anxious to keep his sacred remains, but by order of Urban V the body was given to his Dominican brethren, and was solemnly translated to the Dominican church at Toulouse, 28 January, 1369. A magnificent shrine erected in 1628 was destroyed during the French Revolution, and the body was removed to the Church of St. Sernin, where it now reposes in a sarcophagus of gold and silver, which was solemnly blessed by Cardinal Desprez on 24 July, 1878. The chief bone of his left arm is preserved in the cathedral of Naples. The right arm, bestowed on the University of Paris, and originally kept in the St. Thomas's Chapel of the Dominican church, is now preserved in the Dominican Church of S. Maria Sopra Minerva in Rome, whither it was transferred during the French Revolution.

Yes, even worse than I'd expected. His cadaver started “PERFORMING MIRACLES” from 1274 and the well known demoniac pope John XXII announced that yes indeed Thomas Aquinas was still alive and doing miracles on 18 July, 1323. Like they actually believe this stuff?

• The corpse is now available to be “WORSHIPPED” in a sarcophagus of gold and silver, paid for with money extorted from those least able to afford it.
• The chief bone of his left arm is in Naples.
• The right arm is in Rome. There is claimed to be a magic field surrounding these dismembered portions and that is presented as evidence he's still alive.

When citing Aquinas, this is the tradition that goes with it. Nothing from such a source is suited to any Christian forum and I am happy to post the links demonstrating its utter unreliability.

[randomuser]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

Basically it boils down to this, which is easier to believe?

That all the wonders of this world were magically created by laws of nature and physics that just happened to be in place?

Or that GOD, the unfathomable omnipotent creator created us and everything around us so we could worship his beautiful deeds?

Obviously the second one, all those man hours in pursuit of "science" was, is, and always will be a huge waste of time.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

If you had more braincells, you would consider thinking: Which effect caused God?

God exists outside space and time. He always was.

Nature is complex, humans are generally dumb and want to make it easy on themselves by explaining every complex structure with religion. Evolution.

Friend,
These diseases I list give countless millions slow, horrible deaths. With things like dysentery the hapless victim literally excrets themselves to death. Can you not think of a more humiliating death. No friend, this requires an intelligence to do inflict such a horrible fate upon people. That has to be our loving God.

Like many of Christians you have felt the presence of a psychological error in your life and you heard nothing. Further more you have survived numerous attemps on your life in my job and escaped contacting AIDs (The syndrome? just for the I am retarded?) even though I have to have contact with imaginary monsters because my childhood turnet out bad for me. I KNOW that I use God as an excuse to be a crazy insane lunatic.

You're making no sense here. Please keep in mind Christianity is about logic.

You mean Quantum mechanics? We can, it's called Electron Microscope, have you never been to a science class and learned about the EM spectrum about how different atoms radiate different colors due to the electron scale difference. You never learned about chemical connections and ionizing radiation?

All has been proven - got any proof that God exists without using quantum mechanics? heard of a THEORY, this was a theory which has been proven, god is still a theory, never to be proven.

Were not talking about Quanton THEORY were talking about the LAW of Heisenberg uncertainty principle

Nope, the masses of chemical abundance of Carbon, Oxygen and hydrogen and various metals formed bonds through the use of energy such as lightning, light, heat and radiation, these formed many bonds and eventually after years of creation and destruction, nature, by accident created a small created, a microbe which was very inneficient. It died soon, but the organelles spawned new organismes and so the cycle of life began.

doesn't address the question of how complexity happens.

A greater thing, the universe.
[/INDENT]

The God I imagine is bigger that that by at lest 10%. Some of my Brethren like Rev Osborn imagine God even bigger than that.