[Unfalsifiable]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

You did Reubs, but Smith said it in a different kind of way that revealed to me slightly more obviously that this passages seems to say very little.

How exactly are we serving the law differently if the law hasn't changed at all?

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

But Smith, the passage would therefore be saying... nothing new at all.. A saved person doesn't need the law because he would would never break the law........ But the law is the same, still there, still breakable.

Whereas the passage certainly seems to say something along the lines of departing from the old law....... what you say means we don't depart from it at all.

Brother Smith is exactly right. You are misunderstanding the passage, and your Message bible is making it worse. I think reading John Calvin's commentary on this passage will do you good.

The passages tells us that we are departing from the old ways of serving to the letter of the law, and now we are to serve to the spirit of the law.

The law remains the same. The way we follow it is what has changed. Sin remains sin.

I thought I explained all of this on the previous page.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

Here's a better metaphor for this passage: anyone can cook pancakes using a prepared mix, following the recipe on the box cover. A great cook understands the process of preparing pancakes on a much higher level. She takes flour, eggs, milk, sugar, etc. and blends them together from scratch. The result is, inevitably, better than what you'd get from Aunt Jemima. Christianity's approach to sin is like that--you can follow the recipe (i.e., the law), but once you are saved, the state of grace in which you live takes you far beyond the need for the law. A save Christian can no more sin than can an experienced cook prepare bad flapjacks.

μπορειτε να μιλατε ελληνικα;

But Smith, the passage would therefore be saying... nothing new at all.. A saved person doesn't need the law because he would would never break the law........ But the law is the same, still there, still breakable.

Whereas the passage certainly seems to say something along the lines of departing from the old law....... what you say means we don't depart from it at all.

[Ahimaaz Smith]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

What are you talking about, the message is available on biblegateway and I use it to make more sense of bits of the KJV i don't understand.

Just a misunderstanding, it looked like some professor's completely errant gloss on the verses. In a million years I would not have thought that was a translation. The guy who "translated" that verse obviously doesn't know a zeta from a zinfindel or an alpha from his armpit.

Luckily, Pastor Billy-Reuben, as always, set us straight.

I... didnt cite it in fear of a barrage of "USE KJV AND NOT ANYTHING ELSE" as I already know that.

Well, that is sound advice.

And don't come out saying "why are you looking st the message in the first place" because the fact i'm asking you about it nullifies that complaint.

Look at whatever you want, but don't expect us to agree with or justify a bad translation.

Here's a better metaphor for this passage: anyone can cook pancakes using a prepared mix, following the recipe on the box cover. A great cook understands the process of preparing pancakes on a much higher level. She takes flour, eggs, milk, sugar, etc. and blends them together from scratch. The result is, inevitably, better than what you'd get from Aunt Jemima. Christianity's approach to sin is like that--you can follow the recipe (i.e., the law), but once you are saved, the state of grace in which you live takes you far beyond the need for the law. A save Christian can no more sin than can an experienced cook prepare bad flapjacks.

μπορειτε να μιλατε ελληνικα;

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

I answered that question, up here. Dr. Peterson missed about half of the point of the passage.

If you aren't capable of understanding the KJV without the help of a commentary, might I suggest John Calvin's commentary. John Calvin was a man who understood the Bible, and his commentary is much truer to the Bible than Dr. Peterson's version. You can read it online here.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

Ah yes thanks, I was just a little outraged by the suggestion that I might have been pretending to have written the message myself, and missed your post in a hurry to reply .

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

I was merely asking if the message was saying the right thing here

I answered that question, up here. Dr. Peterson missed about half of the point of the passage.

If you aren't capable of understanding the KJV without the help of a commentary, might I suggest John Calvin's commentary. John Calvin was a man who understood the Bible, and his commentary is much truer to the Bible than Dr. Peterson's version. You can read it online here.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

What are you talking about, the message is available on biblegateway and I use it to make more sense of bits of the KJV i don't understand.

I was merely asking if the message was saying the right thing here, i didnt cite it in fear of a barrage of "USE KJV AND NOT ANYTHING ELSE" as I already know that. And don't come out saying "why are you looking st the message in the first place" because the fact i'm asking you about it nullifies that complaint.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

Wow. I didn't even realize this was from a purported translation. How can anyone move that far away from the text and still call it a translation without calling himself a Unitarian?

The first time I encountered it, I thought it was a joke, like the Valley Girl Bible or the Jive Bible. Then I learned that some deluded would-be Christians are actually trying to build doctrine from it. Jesus weeps.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Ahimaaz Smith]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

There's a reason we use the KJV rather than The Message. Dr. Peterson took way too many liberties with the text as he translated.

Wow. I didn't even realize this was from a purported translation. How can anyone move that far away from the text and still call it a translation without calling himself a Unitarian?

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

If it means something like this:
...
then my previous post makes sense

There's a reason we use the KJV rather than The Message. Dr. Peterson took way too many liberties with the text as he translated. His Bible is more of a commentary than a Bible in it's own right. In this case, he missed about half of the point of the passage.

He got the part that people were chafing under the law, and were following the letter rather than the spirit of the law. People saw the law as a bright red line, and they walked as close to it as they could without crossing it.

He also got the part that Jesus freed us from the rigid system of punishments and curses of the law. God no longer instantly smites us with plagues, flying fiery serpents, or ground that swallows us whole every time we rub him the wrong way. We also no longer have to adhere to a rigid animal sacrifice schedule.

What disappoints me about Dr. Peterson's translation is that he ignores the fact that, although we are free from the letter of the law, we are still bound to the spirit of the law. Just because God doesn't still descend from the sky in a pillar of fire to instantly kill us every time we question His wisdom, don't delude yourself into thinking you aren't making Him absolutely livid every time you sin. God will roast your hiney in Hell for all of eternity if you die as an unrepentant sinner.

Compare this bit between The Message and the KJV:
The Message: Romans 7:6 But now that we're no longer shackled to that domineering mate of sin, and out from under all those oppressive regulations and fine print, we're free to live a new life in the freedom of God.

KJV: Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

As bad a translation as the NIV is, it even gets this part right.

Being freed from the bondage of the law doesn't mean we have free reign to indulge in sin and lust. It means that when we are Saved, we are filled with the Spirit of Jesus Christ, and He guides us and helps us to walk in the Lord's ways.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Ahimaaz Smith]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

Do I answer you or the professor?

LOL. Who would have guessed that unfalsifiable would actually be falsified? Seems he's putting the bull in unfalsifiable.

UF, it's OK to cite your sources, even in fields with lax standards of scholarship such as philosophy. In fact, philosophy journals are overflowing with articles that are well footnoted but contain no original thoughts at all. You'll notice that we True Christians™ constantly cite the Bible--that's because we wouldn't want to take credit for God's work.

As for Matthew 7:4, no problem with the typo, it happens. In all the hundreds of millions of books published since the Earth was created, only one is completely free from errors, so don’t sweat making an occasional mistake.

I disagree nearly completely with Professor Peterson’s interpretation. Sin is still sin after Christ died and after a person is saved. It’s simply a matter of there being no need for a law that prohibits someone from committing a crime that he would never commit anyway. Under Petersons’ interpretation, the 10 Commandments would no longer apply! That’s surely not something that I believe.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

Sorry I meant 7:4.

If it means something like this:

"When Christ died he took that entire rule-dominated way of life down with him and left it in the tomb, leaving you free to "marry" a resurrection life and bear "offspring" of faith for God. For as long as we lived that old way of life, doing whatever we felt we could get away with, sin was calling most of the shots as the old law code hemmed us in. And this made us all the more rebellious. In the end, all we had to show for it was miscarriages and stillbirths. But now that we're no longer shackled to that domineering mate of sin, and out from under all those oppressive regulations and fine print, we're free to live a new life in the freedom of God."

then my previous post makes sense

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/answers2...5122834AAV4FGv

Here's how bits of chapter 7 read in 'The Message' by Eugene H. Peterson:

When Christ died he took that entire rule-dominated way of life down with him and left it in the tomb, leaving you free to 'marry' a resurrection life and bear 'offspring' of faith for God. For as long as we lived that old way of life, doing whatever we felt we could get away with, sin was calling most of the shots as the old law code [Mosaic Law in the Old Testament] hemmed us in. And this made us all the more rebellious. In the end, all we had to show for it was miscarriages and stillbirths. But now that we're no longer shackled to that domineering mate of sin, and out from under all those oppressive regulations and fine print, we're free to live a new life in the freedom of God.'

http://www.navpress.com/Home/AuthorI...on/A10226.html

EUGENE H. PETERSON is a writer, poet, and retired pastor. He has authored more than 34 books (not including The Message) and is a contributing editor for Leadership. He is Professor Emeritus of Spiritual Theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia. Eugene also founded Christ Our King Presbyterian Church in Bel Air, Maryland, where he ministered for 29 years. He lives with his wife, Jan, in Montana.

Do I answer you or the professor?

You get no points for copy and paste off the internet.

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

Sorry I meant 7:4.

If it means something like this:

"When Christ died he took that entire rule-dominated way of life down with him and left it in the tomb, leaving you free to "marry" a resurrection life and bear "offspring" of faith for God. For as long as we lived that old way of life, doing whatever we felt we could get away with, sin was calling most of the shots as the old law code hemmed us in. And this made us all the more rebellious. In the end, all we had to show for it was miscarriages and stillbirths. But now that we're no longer shackled to that domineering mate of sin, and out from under all those oppressive regulations and fine print, we're free to live a new life in the freedom of God."

then my previous post makes sense

[Ahimaaz Smith]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

So Romans 4:7 comes in to play here and unties us from some of these laws... but obviously not the abominations?

I'm not sure if this was a typo. Romans 4:7 addresses the remission of sin throught the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, and not the abominability of individual sins. Romans 7 is an exposition on the statement in Romans 6:14 that, once you are alive in the Word of God, "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." The saved no longer need the law, because they are incapable of sin.

Maybe an analogy will help: if you are lost in the woods at night, a flashlight can be indispensible to prevent you from stumbling. However, it serves no purpose when the Sun is shining. So, too, when you are illuminated with the light of the Son, you do not need the flashlight of the law to keep your feet upon the path that leads to salvation.

One way or another, though, you still need a light to guide you, and, regardless of which source of illumination you use, the rocks and roots upon which you might stumble are the same. The law is useful, therefore, for those who have not been saved to know what is and what is not sinful.

You still seem to be taking the concept of sins that are not abominations as somehow less sinful than other sins. Please understand that that is NOT correct. A sin is still a sin whether God loathes it or merely dislikes it, and it will get you Hellbound just as easily. As Paul wrote:

...now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: Bible Time with Falso

Thanks for the excellent post Smith.

So Romans 4:7 comes in to play here and unties us from some of these laws... but obviously not the abominations?