[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: False Religions And Cults

John von Neumann. Perhaps you know someone else who had greater depth and width of knowledge than he had. Although he was an agnostic all his life, in the end, he converted to Catholicism.

And, as we have already discussed, he did so solely out of fear of death and at the time when his mind was loosing its lucidity.

[handmaiden]

Re: False Religions And Cults

Supposedly educated people are always making pronouncements about what's good or bad for us. Then, a few years later, they reverse their judgments.

"Low fat diets are the key to health," doctors and health gurus said. Now they're saying we need fat for our brains.


One guy with a book to push says grains are bad for our brains because according to "evolution" we are not suited to eat them.


As per book guy, we got hooked on grains some 20,000 years ago when we went from living in caves and hunting, (There are NO cave people in the Bible, btw. Able and Cain were already keeping herds and growing crops and they were like, the first people born.) and started some weird thing called the "Neolithic Revolution", which I understand some movie called The Matrix explained. (Not that I believe anything Hollywood tells me.)


Anyway, book guy spent an hour and a half on some TV show explaining why grains ruined everyone's health starting back 20,000 years ago when we switched from meat to bread. Somewhere in his list of recommendations he mentioned dairy, which he said was fine.


There, I found myself furrowing my brow. Ms. de Barriga can fill you in on what secular science silliness is being taught these days, but I vaguely remember something about those "cave folk" not just hunting, but also gathering.


Some articles even said that the gathering provided more food than the hunting. And one of the things being gathered was grains. Some archeo-whatevers claim to have found burnt or fossilized grains in some cave somewhere.


But what they didn't find were milk jugs. Book guy says grains are bad and dairy is good because of "evolution". But our supposed cave ancestors ate grain and probably didn't make a habit of milking wild animals.


Some other archeo-stuff claims that cows used to be big, dangerous animals back in cave days.(It would be like milking a rhino.) So, how did "evolution" make dairy good back then when we didn't have it? And why did it make grains bad if we were having oatmeal or wheat thins or whatever with our beef or mammoth steak dinners?


Book guy had the credentials and the book and a TV show and a devoted following. But even a non-follower like me can see the flaws in his "expertise".


Wine has been around for a long time. Why aren't we all dead? Especially in France? Fun thought-- Dr. Abstainer should sell his bill of goods in France. Instead of tomatoes, they would throw grapes.

[tomdstone]

Re: False Religions And Cults

And, as we have already discussed, he did so solely out of fear of death and at the time when his mind was loosing its lucidity.

No. He was in full control of his faculties when he called for a Catholic priest at his deathbed. It is true though, that he did fear death. But if he feared death, why did he not ask a rabbi or a Baptist minister to say the prayers at his sickbed? he could have called anyone to pray for him, including a Methodist minister, an Anglican priest, a Lutheran minister, a Buddhist monk, a Hindhu guru, a Muslim imam, a Unitarian preacher, etc... Of course, he was not the only one who wanted a Catholic burial and then was libeled for doing so. World chess champion Bobby Fischer had a Catholic burial. There was a time in his life when he did appear to be somewhat unhinged, but toward the end of his life, he spent a whole lot of time in a library in Iceland reading and studying various issues. And of course the chief rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli converted to Catholicism and as a result there was an outcry of his being a traitor. In fact, there was a whole book written against him, slandering his name and reputation and that of his family.

[tomdstone]

Re: False Religions And Cults

Wine has been around for a long time.

The homemade wine I have tasted in Eastern Europe was somewhat watery and unlike the wine which is sold in stores. Slivovitz or fruit brandy, made from plums, is much stronger.

[tomdstone]

Re: False Religions And Cults

Not a peer-reviewed source.

Many peer reviewed articles have been proven later to be false.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: False Religions And Cults

No. He was in full control of his faculties when he called for a Catholic priest at his deathbed. It is true though, that he did fear death. But if he feared death, why did he not ask a rabbi or a Baptist minister to say the prayers at his sickbed? he could have called anyone to pray for him, including a Methodist minister, an Anglican priest, a Lutheran minister, a Buddhist monk, a Hindhu guru, a Muslim imam, a Unitarian preacher, etc... Of course, he was not the only one who wanted a Catholic burial and then was libeled for doing so. World chess champion Bobby Fischer had a Catholic burial. There was a time in his life when he did appear to be somewhat unhinged, but toward the end of his life, he spent a whole lot of time in a library in Iceland reading and studying various issues. And of course the chief rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli converted to Catholicism and as a result there was an outcry of his being a traitor. In fact, there was a whole book written against him, slandering his name and reputation and that of his family.

Dear Friend,

How do you determine if conversions from other religions to Catholicism provide evidence for the "superiority" of the Catholic cult? Do your count on Prestige, numbers, or some other measurable variable? Do converts from Catholicism to other (sometimes True™) religions count as counter-evidence?

Some examples of the latter.

Our Wise Vice President Mr. Pence converted from Catholicism to Evangelical Christianity (Praise Jesus!). Based on your reliance on anecdotal evidence this proves that Evengelical Faith™ is better.

Pence was raised in the Roman Catholic Church and attended private schools, belonging to what he once described as a large Irish family that celebrated the 1960 election of Democrat John F. Kennedy.
In an interview with CBN in 2010 while still a member of Congress, Pence explained that he had a deep spiritual conversion in college that eventually led him to become an evangelical.
"I began to meet young men and women who talked about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and while I cherish my Catholic upbringing and the foundation that it poured in my faith, that had not been a part of my experience," said Pence to CBN.
"Standing at a Christian music festival in Asbury, Ky., in the spring of 1978, I gave my life to Jesus Christ and that's changed everything."

Madeleine Albright, the former Secretary of State, was also raised a Catholic but turned Episcopalian. She also has a PhD so she is very well qualified to assess different religions and make an unbiased decision which denomination to choose.

As you can see, anecdotal evidence can almost always go both ways. It may serve as a hypothesis but not as evidence. You have to gather lots and lots of narratives to make a database that will eventually have some statistical significance. Maybe. Or the hypothesis may be proven wrong. The Book of Psalms knows that fame per se will not stand against the Power of God.

Psalms 136:17-18
To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever: And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

What about Glenn Beck, a man of exceptional insight. He turned away from Catholicism and chose the Mormon faith (well, it is no worse than his original denomination).

Do these anecdotes represent as good evidence as the John von Neumann narrative in your opinion? Do you understand what I am trying to tell you here?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: False Religions And Cults

No. He was in full control of his faculties when he called for a Catholic priest at his deathbed.

That's not what his friends said. And since we cannot prove one way or another beyond reasonable doubt, your argument is invalid and if you keep using it you'll be venturing into the realm of alternative facts. Which isn't really a new territory for you, so you should be fine.

It is true though, that he did fear death. But if he feared death, why did he not ask a rabbi or a Baptist minister to say the prayers at his sickbed? he could have called anyone to pray for him, including a Methodist minister, an Anglican priest, a Lutheran minister, a Buddhist monk, a Hindhu guru, a Muslim imam, a Unitarian preacher, etc... Of course, he was not the only one who wanted a Catholic burial and then was libeled for doing so. World chess champion Bobby Fischer had a Catholic burial. There was a time in his life when he did appear to be somewhat unhinged, but toward the end of his life, he spent a whole lot of time in a library in Iceland reading and studying various issues. And of course the chief rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli converted to Catholicism and as a result there was an outcry of his being a traitor. In fact, there was a whole book written against him, slandering his name and reputation and that of his family.

And there are scores of people who escaped and are escaping and will be escaping from Catholicism towards something else, be it atheism, Buddhism, Baptism or something else. And there were millions of others who had to convert to Catholicism or face death. It's called extirpation of idolatry; look it up when you get a chance.

Please remind me, what's your point? Are you trying to use a variation of the argument "let's eat excrement; billions of flies cannot be wrong?"

The homemade wine I have tasted in Eastern Europe was somewhat watery and unlike the wine which is sold in stores. Slivovitz or fruit brandy, made from plums, is much stronger.

I am unsure what is the relation between this lump of factoids with the preceding post by Ms. Handmaiden?

How about that homework I gave you about reading some real scientific articles instead of anecdotal factoids? Or should I assume that you are actually mentally incapable of doing so? I mean, I don't think so, you write grammatically, so what's wrong with you?

Many peer reviewed articles have been proven later to be false.

Indeed. That's exactly what makes science, science. Now get to that homework.

[Didymus Much]

Re: False Religions And Cults

...But if he feared death...

I think it's been established that he did fear death, as the witness to that is the same priest who gave him the last rights, Father Anselm Strittmatter, O.S.B. (per Prisoner's Dilemma by William Poundstone (1993), p.194).

The question is not about what religious tradition he called for comfort in his distress. The question is why would someone who actually believed that God was waiting for him would have that fear.

No True Christian™ does.

The only conclusion is that he didn't believe that Heaven was in the cards, that maybe he (and his lineage) had been wrong for the past 1922 years, or that maybe the priest didn't really have the power to forgive his sins (anyone who worked on the Manhattan Project must have carried a huge measure of guilt), i.e. still 100% agnostic.

[tomdstone]

Re: False Religions And Cults

Dear Friend,

How do you determine if conversions from other religions to Catholicism provide evidence for the "superiority" of the Catholic cult? Do your count on Prestige, numbers, or some other measurable variable? Do converts from Catholicism to other (sometimes True™) religions count as counter-evidence?

Some examples of the latter.

Our Wise Vice President Mr. Pence converted from Catholicism to Evangelical Christianity (Praise Jesus!). Based on your reliance on anecdotal evidence this proves that Evengelical Faith™ is better.
Madeleine Albright, the former Secretary of State, was also raised a Catholic but turned Episcopalian. She also has a PhD so she is very well qualified to assess different religions and make an unbiased decision which denomination to choose.

As you can see, anecdotal evidence can almost always go both ways. It may serve as a hypothesis but not as evidence. You have to gather lots and lots of narratives to make a database that will eventually have some statistical significance. Maybe. Or the hypothesis may be proven wrong. The Book of Psalms knows that fame per se will not stand against the Power of God.

Psalms 136:17-18
To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever: And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

What about Glenn Beck, a man of exceptional insight. He turned away from Catholicism and chose the Mormon faith (well, it is no worse than his original denomination).

Do these anecdotes represent as good evidence as the John von Neumann narrative in your opinion? Do you understand what I am trying to tell you here?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

Pence, Beck and Albright are not in the same league as the individuals I mentioned. Please investigate the life of John von Neumann.

[tomdstone]

Re: False Religions And Cults

I think it's been established that he did fear death,

Why did he call a Catholic priest to pray for him? Why specifically someone of that belief since his family was Jewish and went to Lutheran schools?

[Elmer G. White]

Re: False Religions And Cults

Pence, Beck and Albright are not in the same league as the individuals I mentioned. Please investigate the life of John von Neumann.

OK, how many "lesser human beings" would be required to make up for one von Neumann? 3? 5? 10? >54? In which manner is the conversion of one human being of less significance the the conversion of another? Does Jesus really appreciate the intellect of von Neumann more than the intellect of a New England fisherman? Obviously, you do.

Romans 2:10-12
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Isn't it interesting that for once both secular science and the Bible agree. The actions and the content determine the validity of evidence, not the person. Similarly, is the validity of a theory in secular science determined by vote or by the number of professors accepting it? You never answered the question if you had an idea what we're trying to tell you.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Re: False Religions And Cults

OK, how many "lesser human beings" would be required to make up for one von Neumann? 3? 5? 10? >54?

von Neumann was an extraordinarily brilliant man as anyone can check.

[Thomas Taylor]

Re: False Religions And Cults

The homemade wine I have tasted in Eastern Europe was somewhat watery and unlike the wine which is sold in stores. Slivovitz or fruit brandy, made from plums, is much stronger.

Hello Tommy,


Did you know that wine and brandy are two totally different things?
One is produced through fermentation and settling and the other is produced through, yes go on, think about it, fermentation, settling and then distillation.


I have not gone into any detail as I am going to wait for you to elucidate us all on the subject.


I pray you give a coherent and biblically correct response.


YIC
TT

[Elmer G. White]

Re: False Religions And Cults

von Neumann was an extraordinarily brilliant man as anyone can check.

Yes. Assuming he was, how does that make his Faith better than that of others? How many people of "lesser intellect" should we recruit to have as much intellect as his? Because, you know, there are testimonies that oppose his testimony. How many of those opposing testimonies do we need until he's proven wrong? Please give us an approximate number.

I ask you one more time to drop the compulsive name-dropping. I'm not interested in Mr. von Neumann. I am interested in you! I am interested in assisting you in your quest.

Do you think that evidence is based on observations or the person presenting it? Please do not include any personal names of references to any names in your reply. Please do not change the subject with your attempts at the Gish Gallop. We're not discussing the merits of anyone, we never were doing that with you. We're discussing the foundations of faith and the foundations of methodological naturalism. You reply above is just a combination of an appeal to authority, personal opinion, and appeal to popularity and "common sense". Please try to answer a question and not avoid it.

Does the past history of a person matter in these cases? Jesus did not think so. Here's a verse from a well-known story.

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Thomas Taylor]

Re: False Religions And Cults

von Neumann was an extraordinarily brilliant man as anyone can check.

In whose opinion? GOD's? I think not.


YIC
TT