[sinnerbutsaved]

Re: A Discussion

I have read it from cover to cover, Pastor. Jesus DID die for everyone, but everyone will not accept the gift that he has bestowed upon everyone. It is a refused gift, but the gift has been nevertheless presented.

The point is that God so loved the WORLD, not God so loved his Followers. Ever question how the Gentiles got included in all of this? The Jews were God's chosen people, yet for those who believe in Jesus, the Son of God, they are saved according to their faith, not their knowledge or their prior iniquities.

Rev, you say that 'anyone' refers to those of "True Christian" faith, yet if a customer happened to have the wrench you needed, would you not take it for they are not a mechanic?

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: A Discussion

you realize you completely contradicted John 3:16, right?

Jesus DID NOT die for everyone

He died for those that BELIEVE.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Everyone doesn't believe in Jesus, thus they will perish.

You might try reading the ENTIRE Bible, and not just cherry-picking a few sweet verses to twist in order to suit your needs.

[sinnerbutsaved]

Re: A Discussion

You will not claim that God’s love is universal,

you realize you completely contradicted John 3:16, right?

[sinnerbutsaved]

Re: A Discussion

Romans 3:9 (and I'm quoting from the "right" Bible translation here Rev)

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

lastly, Romans 3:22-23

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

therefore, no one is capable...in all your strength to overcome sin. Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to FOLLOW every word of the Bible 100% of the time...for if you did you would literally not commit a single sin and therefore prove the words of the Bible untrue. We all make an attempt to do so in our Christian faith...as misguided as you might find it. Yet, we all redeemed through our faith in Jesus.



"upon all of them that believe", Rev, not just in your doctrine, yet believe in Jesus Christ...I find the final point of this to be: we are all wrong, none of us are 100% right and that includes you and me.

[sinnerbutsaved]

Re: A Discussion

and from all the points that the Rev made, which I do respect, yet must humbly disagree with...for I am not God, and I have been commanded to love my fellow man by Jesus, I am not at liberty to hate anyone, only their actions.

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: A Discussion

"Anyone" doesn't have to encompass the entire world. If I'm a mechanic at work, and go into a garage and say "Anyone have a wrench?" I'm using "anyone" only in reference to my co-workers, not everybody in the world.

Jesus was speaking to a small group of people directly: His followers. We, as True Christians(tm) are His followers. That is what "Anyone" is referring to: Us.

[sinnerbutsaved]

Re: A Discussion

I think it's quite clear that when Jesus says "brother" he is referring to our fellow brothers in Christ, True Christians™. Anyone else we can hate. The Bible makes this quite clear.

what about when he says 'Anyone'?

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: A Discussion

I think it's quite clear that when Jesus says "brother" he is referring to our fellow brothers in Christ, True Christians(tm). Anyone else we can hate. The Bible makes this quite clear.

[sinnerbutsaved]

Re: A Discussion

1 John 4:20
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

1 John 2:11
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

1 John 2:9
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.

In your defense:

Hebrews 1:9
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

these are acts...not people

Romans 12:9
[ Love ] Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

Are people good and evil or are their actions? I really don't know...

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

God has hated people...before Jesus was sent into the world

Nevertheless, I can see still you all believe in Jesus Christ...and through this commonality we are all Brothers and Sisters...and I love you all because we are all in Christ's Love.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: A Discussion

So if God hates people...then that makes it okay for you to hate people?

If God hates something that's good enough for me.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: A Discussion

[...]Ezekial Bathfire (to some minute degree) and Bobby Joe pose good questions to me. [..]

Ezekial Bathfire: If reading a long explanation isn't your thing than don't practice apologetics or read any theological books, particularly Systematic Theology.

I do not object to length if it is pithy, germane, lucid and necessary – yours was not.

[…] 1st John talks incessently about how God is love; […]

1 John 4:7 "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God." 4:8 "Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love." 4:10 "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

The first word v.7 “Beloved” gives the clue – John speaks to True Christians and God’s love for them. You will not claim that God’s love is universal, nor that certain categories of man do NOT love God.

This verse is a fusion of how God is both just and kind, Romans 2: "1Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?"

God is making an offer you can’t refuse. Where is the justice and what is the justice? We should fear the Lord and this is the basis of Christianity – I do not see that we should see His Gift as a reward for what we should freely do.

I also think the author was being a little dogmatic assuming, judging if you will, that we would be doing that of which we accuse others. However, as True Christians™ do not do these things – the lesson is for others.

There is indeed a study to be made of judgment, as we also have:

Leviticus 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

Psalm 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.


Mal:3:18: Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The final one sums it up really.

God's kindess is more difficult than a simple human definition.

I am disturbed at this detour into mysticism, when all is laid before you. I cannot see why false Christians say on the one hand, “God is unknowable” or “is more difficult than a simple human definition.” And on the other, “This is an attribute of God.” The statements are simply incompatible. What is wrong with Faith? Does yours falter that you must find human excuses for everything you cannot accept?

The very fact that we are given a chance to repent is an example of His kindess, and here this verse says we take advantage of it.[...]

You know as well as I that God may do as He wishes.

PS – I am surprised that for one who read the Bible, you misspell “Ezekiel” several times…

[sinnerbutsaved]

Re: A Discussion

Okay, now you're talking my langauge...you and me not see eye to eye man, but I can agree with this

Actually the word "hate", and other synonyms feature prominently in the New Testament. Just one example...

Matthew 24:10: And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

I counted 23 instances of the word "hate" in just the Gospels alone.



I don't know where you get that it is referring to Satan. There is no mention of Satan in this psalm. It means just that: workers of inquity. Human beings can be workers of iniquity.

Still, it shows in the Psalm 11 verse I quoted that God hates the wicked and those that love violence. Not just the sin, but the sinner as well.

So if God hates people...then that makes it okay for you to hate people?

[sinnerbutsaved]

Re: A Discussion

Here's my question: Does EVERYONE on this board believe that they ARE a SINNER?

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: A Discussion

I am not picking verses...I do listen to everything...Yet...you do not see a single instance of the word 'hate' in the New Testament. Not trying to segregate the Bible here, but from the viewpoint of God hating things...it is impossible to love and hate something at the same time. It's illogical.

Actually the word "hate", and other synonyms feature prominently in the New Testament. Just one example...

Matthew 24:10: And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

I counted 23 instances of the word "hate" in just the Gospels alone.

All workers of iniquity? He is clearly referring to Satan and his demons, if your perspective was correct then how could God love the world and then send Jesus? Jesus saves these people, my Brother...he saves them...as he has done for you and me if they repent...those that don't burn in Hell...I agree with that.

I don't know where you get that it is referring to Satan. There is no mention of Satan in this psalm. It means just that: workers of inquity. Human beings can be workers of iniquity.

Still, it shows in the Psalm 11 verse I quoted that God hates the wicked and those that love violence. Not just the sin, but the sinner as well.

[sinnerbutsaved]

Re: A Discussion

Of course we love the sinners and would do anything to help them be Saved™ like us friend. Why do you think we run this forum? To give those horrid low lives the best chance they have of escaping their richly deserved fate!

It really makes us sad that most will be blinded by pride and hate to that they will refuse Christ's gift. But Christ promises us He will wash away our tears so I have faith my Loving Savior will ease my pain at watching so many burn forever.

Okay, now you're talking my langauge...you and me not see eye to eye man, but I can agree with this