[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

I go back to....

PROPOSTION 7. The creator made us for his pleasure.
PROPOSTION 8. There is no pleasure to be drawn from us if we do not have free will.
CONCLUSION 12. We have free will
PROPOSTION 9. If the universe was premeditated, then we would not have free will.
CONCLUSION 13. The universe is not premeditated.
PROPOSTION 10. The creator set up the initial conditions of the universe.
CONCLUSION 14. By C13, there is uncertainty in the unfolding of the universe.
CONCLUSION 15. As uncertainty on top of uncertainty brings even more uncertainty, as time passes, the level of uncertainty increases.

If our creator knows the outcome why would he bother in the first place? And why should we worry about what we do as we were going to do it anyway?

Because your "proposition 8" is total BS. One more time, I am asking for a source. You are making an extraordinary claim, and that demands some proof. Artist, engineers, programmers, composers, and architects create all kinds of things all of the time with the precise purpose that the outcome be exactly as they had hoped. In fact an unexpected outcome more often than not RUINS the experience.

So put up or shut up. Prove your prop 8, that God's foreknowledge trumping our freewill invalids any and all pleasure God might receive from His creation. Because you are just vainly repeating yourself now, going in circles, turning into a troll.

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

I go back to....

PROPOSTION 7. The creator made us for his pleasure.
PROPOSTION 8. There is no pleasure to be drawn from us if we do not have free will.
CONCLUSION 12. We have free will
PROPOSTION 9. If the universe was premeditated, then we would not have free will.
CONCLUSION 13. The universe is not premeditated.
PROPOSTION 10. The creator set up the initial conditions of the universe.
CONCLUSION 14. By C13, there is uncertainty in the unfolding of the universe.
CONCLUSION 15. As uncertainty on top of uncertainty brings even more uncertainty, as time passes, the level of uncertainty increases.

If our creator knows the outcome why would he bother in the first place? And why should we worry about what we do as we were going to do it anyway?

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Because you are not God, and thinking for yourself can get you into trouble.

If I see a crackhead trying to quit, and I toss him an eightball, then I know he is going to light up, despite his willingness to quit. He has free will, and I have foreknowledge. My foreknowledge trumps his freewill, because I know him better than he knows himself.

If you want to argue if he (or any man) has free will, then go for it. You guys have been doing it for thousands of years, and it doesn't matter to me or God. As mentioned earlier, God's foreknowledge trumps your free will, because God knows you better than you know yourself. He is smart enough to figure out what you are going to do before you do it. If you feel that that infringes upon your free will, then too bad for you. You can complain to God about it at your final judgment.
Jeremiah 1

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Quote your sources for assertion 1, and for assumption 2 (that free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive).

Why do I need to quote any sources when I can think for myself, and use logic.
I ask again if a God KNOWS before hand what choice you will make then how can that be considered free will as the outcome is already known to him.

You have to choice between option A and option B.
God already knows you will choose option B
If that is true, then it would be imposable for you to choose option A.
Therefore if God already knows the outcome you have no free will.

I maintain we have free will therefore our Creator does not know the outcome, and is being amused as he watches how what he created turns out.

If he already knew what was going to happen it would not be very entertaining for him now would it?

If he sees things going totally SNAFU then he may decide to point us in the right direction, like he did with Pirate Mosey when he spoke to him on top of Mount Salsa and gave him the "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" or he may not, depending in what sort of mood he is in at the time, and how heavily he has been hitting the Beer Volcano.

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

There is no pleasure to be drawn from us if we do not have free will.

If "He already knows what choices you will make" how can that be called free will?

Quote your sources for assertion 1, and for assumption 2 (that free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive).

[Miss April]

Re: The Holy Noodle

You are only jealous because my book is more fun to read then yours, and they is no evidence that your version of events is more accurate then ours.

You stupid fool i'm not jealous of anything The King James Bible is the only Truth i need and its tons of fun to read its my Favorite Book wouldn't you like you know Jesus? you know he wants to be your friend There is evidence in Our version you just can't see it because you follow the devil

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Quote your source. There isn't one, because even in secular science, there are entire branches of study dedicated to predicting and interpreting human behavior. You secularists can argue "nature versus nurture" until the cows come home, but it has no effect on God's omniscience. He already knows what choices you will make through your free will, and he does indeed hold you responsible for each and every one. I think that's what tweaks you guys off the most -- that someone higher than you holds you morally responsible for all of your actions.

Who are you calling a secularist?
I am a Pastafarian.
I give no more credence to the so called scientists then you do, they are mere toys of the FSM, toys that he like to play with as it amuses him.
I maintain that God, and our creator, IS The Flying Spaghetti Monster,
The creator made us for his pleasure.
There is no pleasure to be drawn from us if we do not have free will.
As how can he derive pleasure from our existence if he already knows what we are going to do?

If "He already knows what choices you will make" how can that be called free will?

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

If we have even limited free will then how can god be all knowing?

If he knows what we are going to do before we do it then that can not be free will as it is already pre ordained that we will do it.

Quote your source. There isn't one, because even in secular science, there are entire branches of study dedicated to predicting and interpreting human behavior. You secularists can argue "nature versus nurture" until the cows come home, but it has no effect on God's omniscience. He already knows what choices you will make through your free will, and he does indeed hold you responsible for each and every one. I think that's what tweaks you guys off the most -- that someone higher than you holds you morally responsible for all of your actions.

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

We only have limited free will. Indeed, God does create some people specifically to be vessels wrath, fitted to destruction. We are clay, He is the potter. Does the clay question the potter? Again, your pride gets in the way and is the cause of your fall.

Romans 9:

If we have even limited free will then how can god be all knowing?

If he knows what we are going to do before we do it then that can not be free will as it is already pre ordained that we will do it.

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

If we are stuck in time then we have no free will, by that logic even before we are born it is already determined whether we go to your heaven or your Hell so what difference does it make what we do in between birth and death? In fact we have no choice what we do, anything we do, by that logic, is gods will. Even the most evil, or the most good, person in the world is only doing the work of god if you follow that reasoning.

Adolf Hitler - Only doing what god made him do.
Barack Obama - Only doing what god is making him do.

If we have no free will then what pleasure can a god get from his creation? See Proposition 3 and the proof there of.

We only have limited free will. Indeed, God does create some people specifically to be vessels wrath, fitted to destruction. We are clay, He is the potter. Does the clay question the potter? Again, your pride gets in the way and is the cause of your fall.

Romans 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Sorry, God is omniscient. Your whole argument is garbage, since that is its linchpin.

Isaiah 46
Revelation 22:13


He has been there already, first to last; He saw it begin and he saw it end. We are stuck in time -- He is not. The pride of a secular humanist can't accept that, and it is that pride that sends them to Hell.

If we are stuck in time then we have no free will, by that logic even before we are born it is already determined whether we go to your heaven or your Hell so what difference does it make what we do in between birth and death? In fact we have no choice what we do, anything we do, by that logic, is gods will. Even the most evil, or the most good, person in the world is only doing the work of god if you follow that reasoning.

Adolf Hitler - Only doing what god made him do.
Barack Obama - Only doing what god is making him do.

If we have no free will then what pleasure can a god get from his creation? See Proposition 3 and the proof there of.

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Sorry, God is omniscient. Your whole argument is garbage, since that is its linchpin.

Isaiah 46

9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Revelation 22:13

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

He has been there already, first to last; He saw it begin and he saw it end. We are stuck in time -- He is not. The pride of a secular humanist can't accept that, and it is that pride that sends them to Hell.

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

At least he posted in the correct section of our Godly forum, "False Religions and Cults."

I post here as this is the section for what YOU think are "False Religions and Cults." if everything on this forum that was actually to do with "False Religions and Cults." was to be posted in this section then the rest of the forum would be pretty empty, apart from the section devoted to praising The Great Noodle himself.

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

The you can flush all of your "science" texts down the drain

Now let us use logic not science.

PROPOSTION 1. The universe exhibits too much structure to have evolved by chance.
CONCLUSION 1. There was a creator.
PROPOSTION 2. All things are subject to the passage of time.
CONCLUSION 2. The processes of the universe were in action over the time period in which it was created.
PROPOSTION 3. Nothing, not even a God, can know the exact outcome of a situation in the universe, Moreover, the uncertainty increases with the time elapsed since the parameters of the situation were known.
CONCLUSION 3. If the creator wished to make the universe precisely as he pleased, then he would need to do it rapidly.
PROPOSTION 4. Any being that would create a universe for his own pleasure is an egotistical maniac.
CONCLUSION 4. The creator was an egotistical maniac.
CONCLUSION 5. Since an egotistical maniac. Would want things done his way, he must have, by C3, made the universe extremely rapidly; in fact as rapidly as possible.
PROPOSTION 5. If a creator could affect more points of space simultaneously, then he could create the structure in the universe more rapidly.
CONCLUSION 6. A creator with more appendages than another could have created the universe more rapidly.
CONCLUSION 7. Since by C5, the creator made the universe as rapidly as possible, he has as many appendages as possible.
PROPOSTION 6. The universe is discrete.
CONCLUSION 8. There is a minimal thickness to the appendages of the creator.
CONCLUSION 9. A creator with thinner appendages can have more of them.
CONCLUSION 10. By C7 and C9, the creator had as many appendages as possible, all of minimal thickness.
CONCLUSION 11. The creator was a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Proof of Proposition 3

PROPOSTION 7. The creator made us for his pleasure.
PROPOSTION 8. There is no pleasure to be drawn from us if we do not have free will.
CONCLUSION 12. We have free will
PROPOSTION 9. If the universe was premeditated, then we would not have free will.
CONCLUSION 13. The universe is not premeditated.
PROPOSTION 10. The creator set up the initial conditions of the universe.
CONCLUSION 14. By C13, there is uncertainty in the unfolding of the universe.
CONCLUSION 15. As uncertainty on top of uncertainty brings even more uncertainty, as time passes, the level of uncertainty increses.
CONCLUSION 16. Proposition 3 is true.

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

A quote from a book is no evidence of the truth of said book

The you can flush all of your "science" texts down the drain