[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

The alternate historical sources I know about were available during your lifetime. I have already given you one example, the Talmud.

Doesn't count. Too late to be reliable.

Tacitus, Annals, XV44

Written during the 2nd century AD. Too late to be reliable.

Lucian of Samosata, the Death of Peregrine, 11-13

Even later than the previous one.

Suetonius, The life of Claudius, 25,4

That one is early enough, but if we were to believe it places Jesus in Rome instigating revolts. Unless we interpret it that Suetonius had no idea what he was talking about and he just repeated rumors he heard, and assumed that Jesus was personally involved in Rome without fact checking his sources.

Pliny the younger Epistles X, 96.

It's a tad bit late source, but he doesn't talk about Jesus anyway, just about the Christian religion.

Thallus, as related by Julius Africanus, Chronography 18.1

Too bad we have no idea what Thallus actually said. From what we know, however, it appears to fall within the genre of science fiction.

Phlegon, Chronicles

Very late, he couldn't possibly meet anyone who knew Jesus in their lifetime.

Mara Bar Serapion

Timing is unclear, and have you actually read it? It's more vague than Nostradamus' prophecies.

Josephus, Antiquities XX,9.1. (According to Dr. Louis Feldman, professor of classics at Yeshiva university, few have doubted the authenticity of this passage.)

Not very few if you check out the actual scientific literature instead of following yet another Authority. Please come back with this source when this debate is settled.

So it is my turn to give you an F, a failing grade as a teacher in the history of religion, if you did not know anything about these sources.

That's so cute!

Unfortunately, you still fail. You provided inadequate sources - most very late, and some of dubious authenticity. Therefore, you failed to prove historicity of Jesus.
Congratulations, you earned a big fat F.

Come on, that really shouldn't be so hard, I mean, the events described in the Gospels should have been described by someone living at that time, right?

Right?...

OTOH, I give you an A in the study of Middle Eastern cuisine

I made a falafel once and that makes me an Authority on the subject in your eyes?

Wow, you're so adorable! Very easily impressionable, too.

and a B- on the possible beneficial nature of red wine, drank in moderation, in the human diet.

Ooh, you didn't like that I tried to make you do some research, did you? You prefer to receive all of the information on a golden platter, huh?

I also give a grade of F to most of the other posters here, with the possible exception of Dr. Elmer White who has made some interesting points on various questions. However, I fear he has placed too much emphasis in what some atheists say about the existence of a Jocaxian void and so I would not give him an A.

Read all of his posts again.

Maybe - just maybe - you can still learn something.

[Thomas Taylor]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

The alternate historical sources I know about were available during your lifetime. I have already given you one example, the Talmud.
Here are a few others:
Tacitus, Annals, XV44
Lucian of Samosata, the Death of Peregrine, 11-13
Suetonius, The life of Claudius, 25,4
Pliny the younger Epistles X, 96.
Thallus, as related by Julius Africanus, Chronography 18.1
Phlegon, Chronicles
Mara Bar Serapion
Josephus, Antiquities XX,9.1. (According to Dr. Louis Feldman, professor of classics at Yeshiva university, few have doubted the authenticity of this passage.)Now did you say that you give me a failing grade as a student? But today, students give grades to the effectiveness and knowledge of their teacher. So it is my turn to give you an F, a failing grade as a teacher in the history of religion, if you did not know anything about these sources. OTOH, I give you an A in the study of Middle Eastern cuisine and a B- on the possible beneficial nature of red wine, drank in moderation, in the human diet. I also give a grade of F to most of the other posters here, with the possible exception of Dr. Elmer White who has made some interesting points on various questions. However, I fear he has placed too much emphasis in what some atheists say about the existence of a Jocaxian void and so I would not give him an A.

Dear Dr. Stone


What gives you the right to judge/grade anyone?


Just asking as I think you may just be walking into a firestorm for making presumptions about yourself (even though you are actually).


I am still saying prayers for your eternal soul to escape the long and rocky road down which you are travelling.


YIC
TT

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Dear Dr. Stone

Oh, please, trust me, Mr. Taylor - this man is no doctor of any type. Unless you are referring to his ability to doctor "proof" from no data at all.

[Alvin Moss]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

it is my turn to give you an F, a failing grade as a teacher in the history of religion, if you did not know anything about these sources. OTOH, I give you an A in the study of Middle Eastern cuisine and a B- on the possible beneficial nature of red wine, drank in moderation, in the human diet. I also give a grade of F to most of the other posters here, with the possible exception of Dr. Elmer White who has made some interesting points on various questions. However, I fear he has placed too much emphasis in what some atheists say about the existence of a Jocaxian void and so I would not give him an A.

Matthew 7:1-3

[handmaiden]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

. . . today, students give grades to the effectiveness and knowledge of their teacher.

That particular practice and the cultural attitudes that led to it may have something to do with your problem.

So it is my turn to give you an F, a failing grade as a teacher in the history of religion, if you did not know anything about these sources. OTOH, I give you an A in the study of Middle Eastern cuisine and a B- on the possible beneficial nature of red wine, drank in moderation, in the human diet.

This ain't that kind of school, kid. You don't hold the reins of power over us here because your parents threaten to sue the Principal every time you don't get a gold star. And we don't hand out participation trophies to children who pee their pants anytime they step out onto the field to face a team of bigger players.

I also give a grade of F to most of the other posters here, with the possible exception of Dr. Elmer White who has made some interesting points on various questions. However, I fear he has placed too much emphasis in what some atheists say about the existence of a Jocaxian void and so I would not give him an A.

Well, that's going to break the good doctor's heart. That A he was hoping to get in your class was the only thing getting him through the day. There goes our chance at the state championship.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

It confirms that the Talmud was written between 3rd and 6th century AD.

In many cases, Jewish scholarship was transmitted and handed down orally before the 3rd century. To a large extent, the Talmud is a written version of part of the Oral Torah.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

In many cases, Jewish scholarship was transmitted and handed down orally before the 3rd century. To a large extent, the Talmud is a written version of part of the Oral Torah.

Says a guy who's never played (or heard of) the telephone game, obviously.


Have any friends while you were growing up, Tom?

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Timing is unclear, and have you actually read it? It's more vague than Nostradamus' prophecies.

No. I found it to be clear. And it is dated to be sometime after 70 AD. Of course I have read the relevant passages: The letter of Mara bar Serapion to his son
"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished.God justly avenged these three wise men. The Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."
I can give a link, but unfortunately, the moderator has deleted some of my links.
And of course, there are a number of Christian sources which testify to the historical existence of Jesus. I know you wanted only non-Christian sources, so you should investigate a non-Christian source which is often overlooked. It is an ancient manuscript in the Himis Tibetan Buddhist monastery located in Hemis, Ladakh, India. Swami Abhedananda visited the monastery and confirmed that the ancient text in question testifies to the fact that St. Issa of Israel (Jesus) visited India and regions of the Himalayas to preach his message and that saints, and monks of the area listened attentively. As you know the gospels do not record the life of Jesus from about his thirteenth year to his thirtieth year except to say that He increased in wisdom and stature Luke 2:52. Since the visit of Swami Abhedananda, others have also visited the monastery, notably, Nicholas Roerich, and confirmed the authenticity of the ancient text which notes the preaching of Jesus in the previously unknown years of His life.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

• If natural science is right when it dismisses the literal Genesis, how can it be wrong when it combines forces with historical sciences, archaeology and textual analysis and says that the Gospels are not literal, either?

The historical method is different from the scientific method. It is generally accepted that George Washington did not cut down a cherry tree. But even so, that does not mean that George Washington did not exist and that everything written about George Washington is false. However some things in the Gospels are not to be taken literally, such as for example, Call no man father. If one were to take this literally, it would mean that you would not be able to call your dad - father.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

No. I found it to be clear. And it is dated to be sometime after 70 AD. Of course I have read the relevant passages: The letter of Mara bar Serapion to his son
"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished.God justly avenged these three wise men. The Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."

Which king? Based on the timing, I'd interpret it as referring to one of the fallen heroes of the first Jewish-Roman war, which took place just at the time when this particular letter would have been written.

That's the problem with sources which do not mention names, you see. You can interpret them differently depending on your paradigm.

And of course, there are a number of Christian sources which testify to the historical existence of Jesus. I know you wanted only non-Christian sources, so you should investigate a non-Christian source which is often overlooked. It is an ancient manuscript in the Himis Tibetan Buddhist monastery located in Hemis, Ladakh, India.

It's always overlooked for the simple fact that it is a hoax. It has been proven to be a hoax even when its original "discoverer" Nikolai A. Notovitch was still alive.

Since the visit of Swami Abhedananda, others have also visited the monastery, notably, Nicholas Roerich, and confirmed the authenticity of the ancient text which notes the preaching of Jesus in the previously unknown years of His life.

Since you apparently need to feel the Appeal to Authority, here are some Authorities debunking this hoax with actual arguments, rather than just appealing to their authority. My personal favorite authority on this list is Max Muller. One day I hope to speak as many languages as he did, or I will die trying.

Back to the subject. Since we cannot prove the historicity of life and death of Jesus, how about some other events mentioned in the Gospels? I mean, the massacre of the innocents should leave a mark in the historical record, right? Nope, it didn't. What did happened, however, was the census taken by Quirinus in 6 BC. Herod died in 4 BC so that would place birth of Jesus within a reasonable time frame. But wait, wait - there was no celestial event happening at that time which could be interpreted as the star guiding the wise men. Another alternative fact?...

The historical method is different from the scientific method. It is generally accepted that George Washington did not cut down a cherry tree. But even so, that does not mean that George Washington did not exist and that everything written about George Washington is false.

Indeed - and we can easily discern between truth and falsehood by looking at original sources dating back to 18th century. Which is something we are unable to do for Jesus, as independent sources seem to be completely ignorant about Jesus, His life, death, and other events described in the Gospels.

Please note that I am not arguing that everything about Jesus is fake news. The words attributed to Him were part of the normal narrative of the Essene sect. It is quite plausible that the name of one of these many Essenes was Jesus. The only thing I'm saying is that aside from the Essene teachings, the life of Jesus as narrated in the Gospels seems to lack independent historical confirmation.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

It's always overlooked for the simple fact that it is a hoax. It has been proven to be a hoax even when its original "discoverer" Nikolai A. Notovitch was still alive.

It is easy to check that The New York Times, and as well other newspapers, have reported the trip of Nicholas Roerich to India and the evidence he gave for Jesus’ trip to India. And as well, Swami Abhedananda confirmed the details of the visit of Jesus to India. Please see the books:
Roerich: Heart of Asia
Roerich: Altai Himalaya
Swami Abhedananda: Journey into Kashmir and Tibet.
It is somewhat curious that defenders of this site would bring up the issue of hoaxes.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

It is easy to check that The New York Times, and as well other newspapers, have reported the trip of Nicholas Roerich to India and the evidence he gave for Jesus’ trip to India.

Since when are newspapers a reliable source of scientific information?

And as well, Swami Abhedananda confirmed the details of the visit of Jesus to India. Please see the books:
Roerich: Heart of Asia
Roerich: Altai Himalaya

You could have been kind enough to provide a direct link.

Very interesting indeed. I knew this name before; I do enjoy his art. Anyway, while the account given by him in these two sources cannot be verified, we don't know if he made up these stories or not.

Let's assume for a minute that we trust Roerich, and that he really interviewed several people without an interpreter - because interpreters have a way of skewing things to make the researcher happy. Also, let's assume that all people whom he presumably interviewed gave him honest accounts of stories they have really heard from their elders.

Got it, we trust these oral histories 100%.

This is what these people presumably said:

Christ... did not die on the cross, but only lost consciousness. The disciples took away His body, secreted it and cured Him. Later, Issa was taken to Srinagar, where He taught the people. And there He died. The tomb of the Teacher is in the basement of a private house. It is said that an inscription exists there stating that the son of Joseph was buried there.

So that means Jesus did not die for your sins. That means that your sins cannot be forgiven. That means we are all going to Hell.

Also, that means that Jesus died just like everybody else, and was not resurrected, which means He was not the Son of God but just some random dude who liked traveling a lot. Also, He was a cheater who allowed all these false accounts in the Gospels to be written about Him.

Is this what you are trying to prove here? Because this is the source you told me to read. So that could mean two things, either you agree with this account or you didn't even bother to check what Roerich actually said and instead you trusted some another Authority on this issue. I'm not sure which one is worse.

Swami Abhedananda: Journey into Kashmir and Tibet.

Instead of an account of a person claiming to have seen a presumably ancient document, I want to see that document. Hearsay is not evidence. If I told you that I saw a document which says that I own the house of your parents, and their land, and their bank accounts, and all of the other possessions of your family, would you believe me without actually seeing such document?

*** Disclaimer***

The statement above was for illustrational purposes only and I am not actually claiming to be the rightful owner of your family possessions, so please don't send me any money.

***End of disclaimer***

It is somewhat curious that defenders of this site would bring up the issue of hoaxes.

I am not a defender of anything. I am merely an anthropologist trying to conduct her fieldwork. No, don't worry - you are not part of it in any way, I would never conduct research on human subjects before acquiring informed consent. Also, I am not a Baptist, I am of Catholic background but have lost my faith after reading the Bible and the history of Christianity.

Also, I see that you have declined to engage in discussion about the ahistoricity of events described in the Gospels beyond the life and death of Jesus. I will assume that your silence means that you agree with what I said on this subject.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

You could have been kind enough to provide a direct link.

No. I have already reported that the moderator has deleted several of my links, claiming that they are propaganda, etc.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Is this what you are trying to prove here?

Of course not. I already discussed the example of George Washington and the cherry tree.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Of course not. I already discussed the example of George Washington and the cherry tree.

And here we are going back to the problem what constitutes reliable data and for whom. George Washington is a real person within the scientific paradigm, as we have his remains, documents written and signed by him, as well as detailed accounts of the slaves he owned and even of slaves his adopted son sired, etc, etc. Therefore, we have plenty of reliable information about his existence. No atheist will object to that, and even if somebody did we could exhume his remains and let a forensic anthropologist examine them to confirm whether those remains correspond to the description of Washington in his last days of life.

Nevertheless, the fact that there are stories about something or someone does not necessarily mean that some of these stories are true, or even that the protagonist of these stories is real. According to the Bible, unicorns are very strong beasts; does that, coupled with Medieval imagery, make unicorns real? The myth of the Cosmic Hunt* is quite widespread among Eurasian and North American Indian mythologies - does that make the hunter who hunts in the sky a real person? Also, dragons appear in many mythologies, from Chinese to Medieval Europe, does that make them real?

The reason why we started this conversation in the first place, was your inability to see the difference between what constitutes evidence for an atheist/agnostic, and what constitutes evidence for a believer. While for a believer the Bible constitutes all necessary proof, for an atheist it does not, because of lack of confirmation from independent sources and because of all of the alternative facts described in it, which we have previously discussed, and you did not have any objections on this subject.

Again - there is nothing wrong in rejecting science and history and believing that the Bible is 100% correct. Millions of religious people do it all the time. But, you cannot eat your cake and have it too, you have to choose between the Bible and science, these two paradigms are simply too contradictory to be reconciled.


___________
* I was reading a very interesting article about it recently, unfortunately I forgot which journal it was in, maybe Smithsonian Magazine? I wish I could find it to provide a proper citation. Anyway, based on the available data it seems to be one of the oldest myths of all humanity, which I suppose would make it even more "real" than Jesus, according to your own definition of what constitutes proof for something/someone being real.

EDIT:
This is not exactly the reference I was looking for, but it's close enough, and it's beautifully rich in data.