[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

I don't know what he would recommend, but I would recommend soaking in cool water for several minutes.

36 hours after the original question, it's probably a little late for that, isn't it?

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Dear Friend,

I am going to ask you one more time to look at the Big Picture.

I don’t see how QM and evolution would disprove the existence of God.You claim that Einstein never accepted Quantum entanglement, but I suspect that you are referring to the Copenhagen interpretation involving spooky action at a distance. Actually, quantum entanglement is simply statistical correlation in quantum language. The novelty in qm which does not appear in classical mechanics is the appearance of a phase factor associated with the probability of the quantum state. Combination of two states by linear superposition to produce a mixed state is what is responsible for the entanglement of the two states. There is nothing spooky about it.

You have brought up chaos theory claiming that chaos theory implies that you cannot predict the outcome of your actions. Actually, unlike QM, chaos theory is a deterministic theory. The novelty in chaos theory is the extreme sensitivity of the outcome to the initial conditions. Most theories are robust, in the sense that if you slightly alter the initial conditions, you will only slightly affect the outcome. Chaos theory differs in that the outcome will vary drastically if you only very slightly alter the initial conditions. This is seen for example in the case of the Lorenz attractor. You still have determinism with chaos theory in the sense that if you know exactly the initial conditions, you will know the outcome.
As far as pi is concerned, the Bible gives a rough approximation of pi to the nearest integer. Actually, there is no known exact value of pi. The closest value to pi that I know about is accurate to within about 3 trillion digits, but it is still not an exact result.
The atheist will not accept the Bible as literally true, and he will not accept the ten reasons given in the first post as proof of the existence of God. As far as I can see, the only way to convince an atheist of the existence of God, is to begin by discussing the question within his framework of knowledge. That is why I recommend the book:
New Proofs for the Existence of God: Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy by Robert Spitzer.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

The atheist will not accept the Bible as literally true, and he will not accept the ten reasons given in the first post as proof of the existence of God. As far as I can see, the only way to convince an atheist of the existence of God, is to begin by discussing the question within his framework of knowledge. That is why I recommend the book:
New Proofs for the Existence of God: Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy by Robert Spitzer.

This is a foolhearty plan and one that has been shown over and over again to fail. No atheist will reason his way into the faith. Jesus does not say He will live in your Brain. No, He promises to live in your Heart (Ephesians 3:17)! If you think about it, losing the Heart of the Faith is what makes a person an atheist in the first place.

No dear, if you want to show an atheist that God exists, you must appeal to his emotions, to his fear of mortality and fear of being watched and judged at all times.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

As far as I can see, the only way to convince an atheist of the existence of God, is to begin by discussing the question within his framework of knowledge. That is why I recommend the book:
New Proofs for the Existence of God: Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy by Robert Spitzer.

As we have already established in another thread, the author of this book has no authority whatsoever in the field of science. Instead, he's a theologian trying really hard to fit science within a religious paradigm. The only atheists who can be convinced by this book are the ones who know about physics and astronomy even less than Father Spitzer. Based on your previous exchanges with Professor White, I assume you are in that category of people with very limited knowledge about the universe?

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

This is a foolhearty plan and one that has been shown over and over again to fail.

Not true. Have you heard of John von Neumann? He was a "mathematician, physicist, inventor, computer scientist, and polymath. He made major contributions to a number of fields, including mathematics (foundations of mathematics, functional analysis, ergodic theory, geometry,topology, and numerical analysis), physics (quantum mechanics, hydrodynamics, and quantum statistical mechanics), economics (game theory) ,computing (Von Neumann architecture,linear programming, self-replicating machines ,stochastic computing), and statistics.He was a pioneer of the application of operator theory to quantum mechanics, in the development of functional analysis, and a key figure in the development of game theory and the concepts of cellular automata, the universal constructor and the digital computer. He published over 150 papers in his life: about 60 in pure mathematics, 20 in physics, and 60 in applied mathematics, the remainder being on special mathematical subjects or non-mathematical ones"
"Von Neumann was a child prodigy. As a 6 year old, he could multiply and divide two 8-digit numbers in his head,[ and could converse in Ancient Greek....By the age of 8, von Neumann was familiar with differential and integral calculus,[16] but he was particularly interested in history, reading his way through Wilhelm Oncken's 46-volume Allgemeine Geschichte in Einzeldarstellungen.
(quotes from Wikipedia).
He was completely agnostic all his life, but in the end, he was convinced of the truth of Catholicism and converted.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

He was completely agnostic all his life, but in the end, he was convinced of the truth of Catholicism and converted.

You made my point, dear. Catholicism isn't about letting Jesus into your Heart, so this fellow ended up in HELL. My patience is just about running out watching you try to convert the gullible and easily duped who come to our friendly forums seeking Christ. You will cease with the conversion tactics if you wish to maintain your posting privileges here.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

He was completely agnostic all his life, but in the end, he was convinced of the truth of Catholicism and converted.

Yes, and according to online sources, that happened when he was already dying. So he chickened out thinking about death and decided to do a variation of Pascal's wager. And, according to people who knew him, he was already delusional at that time:

Some of Von Neumann's friends, having always known him as "completely agnostic", believed that his religious conversion was not genuine since it did not reflect his attitudes and thoughts when he was healthy. As Dutch-born American physicist and science historian Abraham Pais reports: [23]

“He had been completely agnostic for as long as I had known him. As far as I could see this act did not agree with the attitudes and thoughts he had harbored for nearly all his life.”

Even after his conversion, Father Strittmatter recalled that von Neumann did not receive much peace or comfort from it as he still remained terrified of death.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

...so this fellow ended up in HELL. My patience is just about running out watching you try to convert the gullible and easily duped who come to our friendly forums seeking Christ. You will cease with the conversion tactics if you wish to maintain your posting privileges here.

It is not up to you to decide who will go to hell. It is up to Almighty God. God alone will decide who will be saved. Yes, I have been receiving a lot of infraction notices, so I guess it is only a matter of time before I am banned. I hope I will be allowed to post here, but that decision is one the moderators can make as they see fit. I appreciate the your indulgence of allowing me to give my point of view, at least up to this point.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Even after his conversion, Father Strittmatter recalled that von Neumann did not receive much peace or comfort from it as he still remained terrified of death.

Yup, that's definitely a true believer, no question.

[Basilissa]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

The atheist will not accept the Bible as literally true, and he will not accept the ten reasons given in the first post as proof of the existence of God. As far as I can see, the only way to convince an atheist of the existence of God, is to begin by discussing the question within his framework of knowledge.

In other words, you believe that it is our Christian duty to lure people to God under false pretenses?

And what happens when they discover that you've been lying to them?

The Holy Bible is our only source of knowledge about God, and about what He wants us to do. If you want to bring atheists to religion, you cannot take the Bible out of the equation.

As Sister Mary has noted, people have to accept God with their hearts, not with their minds. God is not a big supporter of logical reasoning:

1 Corinthians 3:18-20
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

You cannot use logical reasoning to bring people to God. We are supposed to be laughed at as dumb fools, backwards, and anti-science:

1 Corinthians 4:9-10
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

Therefore, at this point I'd be more worried about your Salvation rather than of the atheists. You need to repent and stop flirting with science NOW!!!

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Science of this world is foolish in the eyes of God. Big Bang and evolution are in stark opposition to the account of the creation of the world in Genesis. Bible tells us that earth has been created in six days, it has corners, and stars are nothing but lights fixed in the firmament which separates the waters of the earth from the waters of the sky.

Finally, God wants people to be Saved through foolishness of preaching, and not through logic and wisdom:

1 Corinthians 1:19-21
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Are you ready to repent now?

I'll pray for you.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

In other words, you believe that it is our Christian duty to lure people to God under false pretenses?

And what happens when they discover that you've been lying to them?

The Holy Bible is our only source of knowledge about God, and about what He wants us to do. If you want to bring atheists to religion, you cannot take the Bible out of the equation.

As Sister Mary has noted, people have to accept God with their hearts, not with their minds. God is not a big supporter of logical reasoning:

1 Corinthians 3:18-20
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

You cannot use logical reasoning to bring people to God. We are supposed to be laughed at as dumb fools, backwards, and anti-science:

1 Corinthians 4:9-10
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

Therefore, at this point I'd be more worried about your Salvation rather than of the atheists. You need to repent and stop flirting with science NOW!!!

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Science of this world is foolish in the eyes of God. Big Bang and evolution are in stark opposition to the account of the creation of the world in Genesis. Bible tells us that earth has been created in six days, it has corners, and stars are nothing but lights fixed in the firmament which separates the waters of the earth from the waters of the sky.

Finally, God wants people to be Saved through foolishness of preaching, and not through logic and wisdom:

1 Corinthians 1:19-21
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Are you ready to repent now?

I'll pray for you.

Thank you for your prayers and your call to repentance. I appreciate that and recognize that I have faults which I need to work to improve.I have not been lying to anyone but I do think that logic and reason are good tools to use to bring people to God. After all, we should make good use of those abilities and skills that God has given us.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Thank you for your prayers and your call to repentance. I appreciate that and recognize that I have faults which I need to work to improve.I have not been lying to anyone but I do think that logic and reason are good tools to use to bring people to God. After all, we should make good use of those abilities and skills that God has given us.

You've certainly been lying to yourself if you think the Faith of Christ is based on reason, or logic, or even common sense. It's not. It's based on Redemption, pure and simple. Look, it doesn't make sense to the atheist that a God-Man would sacrifice Himself to Himself to appease His sense of Wrath for man having done what he was created to do! I mean, come on man! Where is the logic in this? Logically, the atheist will tell you, there's no reason God couldn't just forgive Adam and Eve. Logically, the atheist will tell you, there's no reason God couldn't allow every child to be born knowing Him intimately like Adam and Eve did before their first sin. Logically, the atheist will tell you, there's nothing about forgiveness that requires blood-lust!

When you go on about the Blood of Christ washing away the sins of mankind, they'll ask, Let's say Christ was 11 and hit his thumb with his father's hammer. Let's say the thumb got big and bruised. The blood didn't come out but it was released from his capillaries, so do you think it redeemed the sins of people within a certain radius of him? Like, were all men within a radius of 12 miles suddenly forgiven of their sins? 40 miles away? 70X7? Or would it have been linked to his DNA? Would his father and uncles, aunts, and cousins on Joseph's side have been forgiven because of the blood? And what's the big deal about blood anyway? Why did Jesus' hemoglobin have magical powers that mine doesn't? Does that mean I can't forgive people unless they suffer, since I'm made in the image of God? And on and on and on and then they'll start laughing at you and they'll just get sillier and sillier and start shouting out, "If Jesus died for my sins, could you ask him to stub his toe for my mortgage?" And really what's the point? They don't care because their hearts are not in it.

[Basilissa]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

I have not been lying to anyone but I do think that logic and reason are good tools to use to bring people to God.

Are you trying to say that you disagree with the Holy Bible on this subject?

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

You've certainly been lying to yourself if you think the Faith of Christ is based on reason, or logic, or even common sense.

I did not say so. I said that it does not make sense to waste the precious gifts that God has given us.

[tomdstone]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Why did Jesus' hemoglobin have magical powers that mine doesn't? Does that mean I can't forgive people ...

Jesus is the Son of God, so everything about Him is exceptional. Further, as the Lord's prayer tells us, we should forgive those who trespass against us.