[Pastor J.C. Manning, M.D., Ph.D.]

Re: Circular logic?

Dear Kaleb Maroney,

I see something like this frequently:
"God is real because the Bible proclaims it. And the Bible is a book of truth because the Bible says so."

I am certain you are clever enough to realize that you can ridicule almost everything by oversimplifying it. By presenting the Bible as a one-liner you are grossly underestimating the magnificence that is the Word of God. And, of course, you are proving nothing of significance this way.

I propose a small experiment. I am going to dig into the details of the Holy Bible and I challenge you to prove me wrong with solid logical arguments. However, this time your usual over-simplifications will not be allowed.

Let us begin with something we can all agree upon. The Holy Bible consists of 2 sections, the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is roughly 3,000-4,000 years old and the New Testament is roughly 2,000 years old. I am going to present you with a table of predictions made 3,000-4,000 years ago that were confirmed 2,000 years ago. Predictions confirmed by several independent eye witness reports. Proof of a magnitude that would be strong enough in court and strong enough in science. To make God's work even more impressive, the crucifixion of Jesus was foretold in Psalm 22:16-18 approximately 1,000-2,000 years before Christ was born, long before this method of execution was even practiced! As you no doubt are aware, all this is documented in great detail in Roman history.

I will present you with your challenge now. Please refute every item of proof I will give you here. No over-simplifications or summaries are allowed. You will have to use solid logic for each and every one of them. And if you fail? Then you will have proven to yourself and to those following this debate that God exists. Undisputably and undeniably. I sincerely hope you will accept this challenge of forfeiting your over-simplifications and instead dig into the actual facts of the matter.

Event	Old Testament Prediction	New Testament Fulfillment
Jesus would be born of a woman.	Genesis 3:15	Matthew 1:20 Galatians 4:4
Jesus would be born in Bethlehem.	Micah 5:2	Matthew 2:1 Luke 2:4-6
Jesus would be born of a virgin.	Isaiah 7:14	Matthew 1:22-23 Luke 1:26-31
Jesus would come from the line of Abraham.	Genesis 12:3 Genesis 22:18	Matthew 1:1 Romans 9:5
Jesus would be a descendant of Isaac.	Genesis 17:19 Genesis 21:12	Luke 3:34
Jesus would be a descendant of Jacob.	Numbers 24:17	Matthew 1:2
Jesus would come from the tribe of Judah.	Genesis 49:10	Luke 3:33 Hebrews 7:14
Jesus would be heir to King David's throne.	2 Samuel 7:12-13 Isaiah 9:7	Luke 1:32-33 Romans 1:3
Jesus' throne will be anointed and eternal.	Psalm 45:6-7 Daniel 2:44	Luke 1:33 Hebrews 1:8-12
Jesus would be called Immanuel.	Isaiah 7:14	Matthew 1:23
Jesus would spend a season in Egypt.	Hosea 11:1	Matthew 2:14-15
A massacre of children would happen at Jesus' birthplace.	Jeremiah 31:15	Matthew 2:16-18
A messenger would prepare the way for Jesus	Isaiah 40:3-5	Luke 3:3-6
Jesus would be rejected by his own people.	Psalm 69:8 Isaiah 53:3	John 1:11 John 7:5
Jesus would be a prophet.	Deuteronomy 18:15	Acts 3:20-22
Jesus would be preceded by Elijah.	Malachi 4:5-6	Matthew 11:13-14
Jesus would be declared the Son of God.	Psalm 2:7	Matthew 3:16-17
Jesus would be called a Nazarene.	Isaiah 11:1	Matthew 2:23
Jesus would bring light to Galilee.	Isaiah 9:1-2	Matthew 4:13-16
Jesus would speak in parables.	Psalm 78:2-4 Isaiah 6:9-10	Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
Jesus would be sent to heal the brokenhearted.	Isaiah 61:1-2	Luke 4:18-19
Jesus would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek.	Psalm 110:4	Hebrews 5:5-6
Jesus would be called King.	Psalm 2:6 Zechariah 9:9	Matthew 27:37 Mark 11:7-11
Jesus would be praised by little children.	Psalm 8:2	Matthew 21:16
Jesus would be betrayed.	Psalm 41:9 Zechariah 11:12-13	Luke 22:47-48 Matthew 26:14-16
Jesus' price money would be used to buy a potter's field.	Zechariah 11:12-13	Matthew 27:9-10
Jesus would be falsely accused.	Psalm 35:11	Mark 14:57-58
Jesus would be silent before his accusers.	Isaiah 53:7	Mark 15:4-5
Jesus would be spat upon and struck.	Isaiah 50:6	Matthew 26:67
Jesus would be hated without cause.	Psalm 35:19 Psalm 69:4	John 15:24-25
Jesus would be crucified with criminals.	Isaiah 53:12	Matthew 27:38 Mark 15:27-28
Jesus would be given vinegar to drink.	Psalm 69:21	Matthew 27:34 John 19:28-30
Jesus' hands and feet would be pierced.	Psalm 22:16 Zechariah 12:10	John 20:25-27
Jesus would be mocked and ridiculed.	Psalm 22:7-8	Luke 23:35
Soldiers would gamble for Jesus' garments.	Psalm 22:18	Luke 23:34 Matthew 27:35-36
Jesus' bones would not be broken.	Exodus 12:46 Psalm 34:20	John 19:33-36
Jesus would be forsaken by God.	Psalm 22:1	Matthew 27:46
Jesus would pray for his enemies.	Psalm 109:4	Luke 23:34
Soldiers would pierce Jesus' side.	Zechariah 12:10	John 19:34
Jesus would be buried with the rich.	Isaiah 53:9	Matthew 27:57-60
Jesus would resurrect from the dead.	Psalm 16:10 Psalm 49:15	Matthew 28:2-7 Acts 2:22-32
Jesus would ascend to heaven.	Psalm 24:7-10	Mark 16:19 Luke 24:51
Jesus would be seated at God's right hand.	Psalm 68:18 Psalm 110:1	Mark 16:19 Matthew 22:44
Jesus would be a sacrifice for sin.	Isaiah 53:5-12	Romans 5:6-8

Yours in Christ,

Pastor J.C. Manning, M.D., Ph.D.

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

I was more questioning your assertion of aphasia.

[Marko Loimaan-Aho]

Re: Circular logic?

Only faith can understand Truth, and only faith can discuss God.

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

How, exactly?

[Marko Loimaan-Aho]

Re: Circular logic?

I am afraid you have the sin of Aphasia.
You are outside my help; you need help from Landover Doctors or maybe even from Pastor Ezekiel. He has helped many young men like you to find the truth.

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

Maybe you could answer me again to humor me, because I'm obviously missing something here.

[Marko Loimaan-Aho]

Re: Circular logic?

Well in that case, how can I genuinely repent if sin has so corrupted my thought to be incapable of belief?

I am afraid, you are already incapable of reading and understanding.
You were just answered.

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

Well in that case, how can I genuinely repent if sin has so corrupted my thought to be incapable of belief?

[Marko Loimaan-Aho]

Re: Circular logic?

You forget the most important thing.
Where do You spend your eternity?
In Heaven with JESUS?

Or in Hell with Devil?

Your opinions are not important for us, only for yourself.
And why you do think, how you do? Because SIN has already damaged your brain!
Romans 1:21-23
You see – being a pervert is not being an extremely bad person. Stupid drug addict Mass murderer can get Jesus inside him, and be saved. But you: you let the sin corrupt your thoughts. Your mind, you really believe your thoughts are clear?
No, your heart is full of dirt and all your thoughts are wicked.
Matthew 15:19
All that matters is GOD’S HOLY WORD
God has led you here. Don’t lose your time.
All this discussion is for YOU – we want to save YOUR soul.

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. My point is that consequences become much harder to realize when they're dealt with only in the afterlife.

[Zechariah Smyth]

Re: Circular logic?

For some insight into the unsaved, we balk because we are too caught up in requiring the seen. Jesus' death is not all that relevant to us, we refuse blind faith, it's unsettling.

However, I disagree about the military. For me, the consequences are much more tangible and much more immediate. Does that make some sense, despite how wrong I am to you?

So punishment is only valid when it's immediate? Ramifications are only important if they affect you short-term? Consequences can be dismissed if you can't touch them?

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

For some insight into the unsaved, we balk because we are too caught up in requiring the seen. Jesus' death is not all that relevant to us, we refuse blind faith, it's unsettling.

However, I disagree about the military. For me, the consequences are much more tangible and much more immediate. Does that make some sense, despite how wrong I am to you?

[Zechariah Smyth]

Re: Circular logic?

Yes, I do. Thank you for the correction.

See, this is your problem in a nutshell: you've discarded the rules of God without fully knowing them, and when (if?) you enter the military you will have the same problem.

Amazing that people will submit themselves to the (temporary) authority of Man (Hebrews 13:17 et al) but balk when it comes to submitting to Jesus.

I mean, all He did was DIE for your filthy sins.



YiC,

Zech

[MaroneyBaloney]

Re: Circular logic?

Yes, I do. Thank you for the correction.

[Zechariah Smyth]

Re: Circular logic?

Title 15? Do you mean an Article 15?