Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Back in 1996, Republican presidential candidate Steve Forbes tried introducing a flat tax, but his dreams of securing the nomination fell short. Now, Republican front-runner Rick Perry is trying to promote a flat tax. A flat tax is where everyone, regardless of income level, pays the same tax rate, say 17%.

Commie liberals say this is a bad idea since a flat tax would basically increase taxes on shiftless, entitlement poor Americans while at the same time reducing the tax burden on the richest Americans (which it actually does, but that's a good thing!). They also say that, if a person makes $10,000 a year, a $1,700 tax is devastating, but a person making $10,000,000 a year will still come out making $8.3 million after taxes.

But, a flat tax is very unfair (even punishing) to wealthy Americans like me!

• Using the above example, the lazy minimum-wage worker pays only $1,700 a year but I pay $1.7 million a year! Why should I have to pay more? That is NOT being fair!
• If we actually made the tax rate decrease as your income level rises (even going down to 0% for the wealthiest 1%), that would make the economy boom since it would give people an incentive to work harder and become rich. No one would be poor anymore. Everyone would be making millions of dollars!
• Wealthy people like me are more important to society than some uneducated money-leeching drone worker. We create jobs. We inspire people. We provide leadership. We deserve all the benefits and riches we can get!

Hopefully, this movement will pick up steam. Fortunately, the Republican Party seems to have been trying to outdo each other in how far-right they can turn. 15 years ago, a flat tax would have been seen as too extreme. Now, it's pretty much accepted by the conservative base. Hopefully, by continuing in this direction, we can see Republican candidates in 2024 proposing cutting taxes altogether for everyone making $100,000 and up to a roaring crowd of sympathizers.

[Johny Joe Hold]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

God bless you, Rev. Jim, for bringing your considerable intellect and wisdom to this issue.

There is another issue of fairness you were too polite to bring up, but I feel called to do so. It is that lower income people use government services and wealthy people don't need them at all.

You can see it everywhere, food stamps, smelly buses, emergency room subsidies, unemployment money and all the rest. Those people who use this stuff show be paying the bill.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

17% seems a bit steep

What about a cut-off point ($450K?) I think Rockefeller suggested that.

[A Follower]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

Wow, I never understood how unfair a flat tax was until now, it almost sounds like false advertising. If they claim the tax is flat, shouldn't it be the same for everyone? Income tax revenue now is $1.1 trillion, a fair and flat tax would be $3700 per person. Everyone knows exactly what they have to pay, no surprises, no complicated tax returns, and every dollar you earn over $3700 you get to keep, what better incentive to keep working hard?

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

Wow, I never understood how unfair a flat tax was until now, it almost sounds like false advertising. If they claim the tax is flat, shouldn't it be the same for everyone? Income tax revenue now is $1.1 trillion, a fair and flat tax would be $3700 per person. Everyone knows exactly what they have to pay, no surprises, no complicated tax returns, and every dollar you earn over $3700 you get to keep, what better incentive to keep working hard?

Perhaps judges could keep the fines they impose - that would reduce public spending a bit.

[Brother Bob]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

Being a moderately wealthy American myself, I understand abuse government puts on taxation. When I was 18, I tried starting my own business and for some reason had to pay 30% of my revenue -- just for trying to be a successful American!

When you put into perspective the $1,700 vs $1,000,000, it really doesn't make sense at all! However, a flat tax would be far better than the current under-achiever-enabling "tax bracket" system that rewards bad behavior. In the short term, flat tax would at least reduce the amount you already have to pay, so that is a plus!

But you are right, the phrase flat tax is really misleading. A true flat tax would be more appropriate!

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

Being a moderately wealthy American myself, I understand abuse government puts on taxation. When I was 18, I tried starting my own business and for some reason had to pay 30% of my revenue -- just for trying to be a successful American!

When you put into perspective the $1,700 vs $1,000,000, it really doesn't make sense at all! However, a flat tax would be far better than the current under-achiever-enabling "tax bracket" system that rewards bad behavior. In the short term, flat tax would at least reduce the amount you already have to pay, so that is a plus!

But you are right, the phrase flat tax is really misleading. A true flat tax would be more appropriate!

Is The New York Times a reliable source? They seem rather left-leaning in this piece.

Britain is mentioned. When they jack up taxes most major employment providers re-register their companies off-shore (Britain has a network of fleshpots little islands for this purpopse) and I believe that most of them keep such offices open continually now, just in case.

Any information re NYT gratefully received.

[Virginia Day Templeton]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

Any information re NYT gratefully received.

The Jew York Slimes is a despicable ZOG rag with about as much credibility as the Weekly World News.

[WilliamJenningsBryan]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

According to this author Jesus hated Roman Big Government about as much as the TEA Party hates Obama Big Government. In His time Jesus was a revolutionary tax protester who thought that all taxation is theft, much like the communist Karl Marx thinks that all property is theft. One more reason that God blesses and endorses the Republican Party.

Praise Jesus!

Luminary Church–“What Jesus Really Taught About Taxes”

They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" "Caesar’s," they replied.

Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s."

When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

Since Jesus’ ministry must be examined primarily from a historical point of view, we should understand a few things about the Roman occupation of ancient Israel and Judah.

In 63 BCE, Pompey conquered Jerusalem. At this time, Israel and Judah became the province of Judea. Non-citizens of Rome were obligated to pay a flat poll tax. Roman born men and women were exempt.

The Pharisees were a Jewish religious sect that severely opposed Jesus’ teachings. When they sent their disciples cloaked in deception to Jesus, they deliberately praised the Rabbi to win his favor. However, this back–fired. Jesus was alert to the devious plan they set out to accomplish and realized their true intention.

The Pharisees, like other Jews, were aware Jesus taught people to not pay taxes to Rome or the Jewish Temple. Jesus foresaw the trap and exclaimed, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me?"

If Jesus did not teach tax evasion and disobedience to Rome, why did he mention the Pharisees’ and Herodians’ evil intention to trap him?

If he taught compliance to taxation, then he would not feel the urgency to avoid entrapment of such a question. He would have simply answered, "Pay your taxes."

Rather, Jesus insisted his confronters bring a denarius coin to him. The denarius was the commonplace currency of the Roman Empire and the only acceptable coin for Roman poll tax payments. Greek and Jewish currency was unacceptable and had to be converted into denarius coins by the moneychangers, who operated their financial empire from the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

Once the coin was produced, Jesus asked the picture and inscription on it. The men sent to trap him, replied, "Caesar." That is when Jesus masterfully responded, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s."

As the ruler of the Roman Empire, the currency used for exchange, legally belonged to Caesar. It may have belonged to Caesar in the same way as a corporation is "legally" a person—what is called a legal fiction. The denarius coins Jesus mentions were property of the Roman Empire.

If we take this teaching literally, there are only two logical ways to ensure the Jewish people gave Caesar what belonged to him.

The first is to take all the denarius money from their moneybags and deliver them to the tax collectors or dump their denarius on Caesar’s palace steps. This would require them to give all their Roman currency back to Caesar.

The second is to convert all denarius money into Greek or Jewish currency. By liquidating denarius into another form of exchange, Jesus’ followers could literally put denarius they possessed back into circulation. This method would require them to convert all their denarius, thus giving "to Caesar what is Caesars’s," but indirectly.

Nowhere in Jesus’ statement does he say, "Give to Caesar what Caesar requires of you." Therefore, the Rabbi revolutionist did not directly answer the question presented to him, but avoided it entirely while teaching about rebellion.

Our second argument is the Jewish temple tax.

Capernaum was a settlement on the Sea of Galilee, a city of the Judea province. When Jesus began his public ministry, he selected Capernaum as his headquarters. Many of Jesus’ first disciples lived in this fishing town.

Early in the first century a synagogue was constructed by a Roman centurion and his soldiers. And if you have your Bibles open, you’ll see this depicted in Luke Chapter 7, Verses 1 through 5.

Jesus regularly read from the Torah and taught about the Lord at this same synagogue. As a Rabbi, he had a close professional relationship with the other Rabbis and priests at that location of worship.

An important event happened near this synagogue. Matthew Chapter 17, Verses 24 through 27 reads:

After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two–drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?"

"Yes, he does," he replied.

When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes from their own sons or from others?"

"From others," Peter answered.

"Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him.

"But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four–drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

The Greek drachma was the commonplace currency of Greece and often circulated in Galilee and other parts of Judea. In Jerusalem, the Temple Tax could only be paid with a Jewish half shekel, however, in Capernaum, the synagogue was more lenient and accepted two drachma coins for their tax. Then the synagogue was responsible for paying their dues to the Jerusalem Temple, keeping a smaller portion for themselves to perform regular maintenance on the building.

Upon returning home, Jesus questioned Peter immediately about the tax issue. He asked Peter, "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes, from their own sons or from others?"

Peter answered, "From others." And Jesus replied, "Then the sons are exempt," meaning the Jews were exempt from the current system of taxation imposed by the Great Sanhedrin and moneychangers of the Jerusalem Temple. However, since Jesus knew Peter already told the Publicans that Jesus would pay the temple tax, he instructed Peter to pay that one time by retrieving money from a fish’s mouth. Because of Peter’s answer, Jesus was now obligated to pay. Otherwise, if Jesus failed to pay the tax, he could later face harassment from the Publicans or lose his special privilege to speak in the Capernaum synagogue.

It is interesting to note that neither Jesus nor Peter worked for the four–drachma coin. Jesus told Peter where to easily find this fish and what to do with it. It is like the Greek coin magically appeared as Jesus promised with little effort or hunting on Peter’s part.

Why would Jesus, if he were a tax protester, instruct his disciple to pay the tax for them both?

Through investigating American tax protesters, it is interesting to see that some advocate tax evasion or resistance, however, in practicality, they pay their federal taxes. Why would anyone advocating tax resistance do this?

These individuals, by speaking out against the system, bring attention to themselves from the government. Since the government has authoritarian control and power to punish, these tax protesters play it safe by giving the minimum tax. As a tax protester, it is a wise political move to do this, so the protester can continue speaking freely and publicly against the government.

We can assume Jesus had a very similar motive, that it was political and by paying the temple tax that one time, it was worth it to continue the ministry.

After all, it was Jesus who said, "So that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four–drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

It is very clear Jesus only instructed Peter to pay the temple tax for political reasons.

The last argument we’ll examine is the tax collector as a protypical sinner. And I feel this argument is equally important as the previous two.

By examining a few select sayings of Jesus, we can clearly see how the Rabbi revolutionist held tax collectors in a position of contempt, and often referred to them as sinners.

Matthew 5, Verse 46 reads:

"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?"

Matthew 9, Verses 11 through 13 reads:

"When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?

On hearing this, Jesus said, It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

The Pharisees on many occasions spied or received communication that Jesus was socializing and dining with tax collectors, prostitutes, and sinners. Though Jesus spoke of them negatively in his public discourses, he was quite friendly to them and enjoyed their company. It may seem hypocritical that Jesus dined and drank with tax collectors, however, to his credit, he socialized so they would come under the influence of his divine teachings.

And the power of his teachings held weight in the minds of at least two tax collectors. Early in Jesus’ mission, he was able to convert Levi, a Jewish Publican later known as Matthew, into his group. Jesus later selected Matthew as one of the twelve Apostles or witnesses of his inner circle. The Apostles often congregated in Matthew’s dwelling to eat, drink, and listen to Jesus teach.

Zacchaeus’ conversion story is equally impressive, if not more so. He was the Head Publican in Jericho. When it came to taxes in this export city, he was the boss. He had the final say and could increase taxes at will. The people hated Zacchaeus immensely and there was always someone slandering him.

In the Book of Luke, Chapter 9, Verses 1 through 10, we read about Zachaeus dramatic conversion into the teachings of Jesus. I suggest you read this important Scripture to truly understand Jesus’ teaching regarding taxation and tax collectors.

In summary, Jericho’s head tax collector realized his fault, admitting he stole from his fellow brothers and sisters. It is amazing that a man of Zaachaeus’ position and stature would convert within an instant and confess he was wrong for supporting the system of taxation.

Zacchaeus’ new friendship certainly received a lot of public attention through the province of Judea with word spreading quickly to the Great Sanhedrin of the Jewish Court. For the Jewish Court, it was a severe blow to their ability to suppress Jesus’ ever–increasing following. Daily, his followers were gathering in larger numbers to show support and learn directly from the most talked about Rabbi in all of Judea.

How could you ignore Jesus? He taught a message that promised an ever–lasting kingdom that raised up the individual to sovereignty through God, the One Great Power.

Man can suppress and create unethical, life–stealing laws all they want. They can tax every single citizen, beat them up and jail them for not complying, and instill fear into the general public.

But they can never steal away the spark of life that truly belongs to God.

The great sage of Psalms Chapter 24, Verse 1 eloquently declares, "The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it."

And I boldly claim, when you steal from man, no matter the reason or method, you are stealing from God.

And the Lord has commanded us, "Thou shalt not steal!"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31792236/What-Jesus-Really-Taught-About-Taxes-by-John-Paul-Mitchell

[11cookies]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

But the rich get more.
For example defense and police. The rich have more the protect, so there getting more out of defense and police.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

But the rich get more.
For example defense and police. The rich have more the protect, so there getting more out of defense and police.

The DoD defends all Americans equally doesn't it?

Imagine a small farm, say 50,000 acres. The fence surrounding it does the same job whether you put 1 donkey in there or 100,000 head of cattle. Or nothing. Similarly when America is invaded by heathens the Army repulses them from all locations, not more repulsed from Beverly Hills and less repulsed from the housing projects.

They are repulsed. End of story.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

But the rich get more.
For example defense and police. The rich have more the protect, so there getting more out of defense and police.

That's the way God wants it. He heaps Blessings upon those whom He loves the most. It says so in the Holy Bible.

2 Samuel 22:21
The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.

2 Chronicles 15:7
Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded.

Psalm 31:23
O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

Please make a thread of your own in the "Introductions" section of the forum, so that we can properly greet you. Tell us about yourself, your church, and how you came to find Jesus.

[11cookies]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

The DoD defends all Americans equally doesn't it?

Imagine a small farm, say 50,000 acres. The fence surrounding it does the same job whether you put 1 donkey in there or 100,000 head of cattle. Or nothing. Similarly when America is invaded by heathens the Army repulses them from all locations, not more repulsed from Beverly Hills and less repulsed from the housing projects.

They are repulsed. End of story.

Or really...
The rich have a lot more to be defended.

Imagine in a country their is a 1% each year of a bunch of bandits coming and burning down your house.

The poor person has a house worth $10,000. His average yearly loss from the bandits is $100.

The rich person has a house worth $1,000,000. His average yearly loss from the bandits is $10,000.

If lets say a government is instituted, stopping the bandits from attacking people, then the rich person would gain more then the poor person.

P.S. Why did i get a 15 point infraction from my previous comment? All I did was disagree with you people. This must be why when I looked at the user list most of the people had been banned.

[11cookies]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

Oh, and by the way, didn't Jesus say that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

[Brother Bob]

Re: Is a Flat Tax Unfair for Wealthy Americans?

Or really...
The poor person has a house worth $10,000. His average yearly loss from the bandits is $100.

The rich person has a house worth $1,000,000. His average yearly loss from the bandits is $10,000.

If lets say a government is instituted, stopping the bandits from attacking people, then the rich person would gain more then the poor person.

This is still biased because whether a person is rich or poor, they still get the same service. The government in your analogy would be killing (or whatever) the bandits in an equal way. So the service of defense should not be based on income as the action taken by the government is the same despite personal success.

A sliding tax is un-American as it punishes success and reinforces "enabled" and "privileged" living. Keep in mind, everyone who is rich was -- at one point -- poor (unless they inherited their money but that is completely irrelevant).