[Brother Harold Porter]

Re: Avoiding Jail For Domestic "Violence"

While I'm at it, I would also like to point out that Jesus himself spared women from physical punishment and pain. To just point out one story among many I will quote this:

Really?

Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Genesis 3:16-17 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

The woman sinned and then introduced her husband to the same sin (as is usually the case). What did God do?

He cursed Eve and every woman to come with intense physical pain in childbirth.

And the man? God made the ground difficult to farm.

Do you see the difference in punishment?

In Christ

[short n sweet]

Re: Avoiding Jail For Domestic "Violence"

Really?

Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Genesis 3:16-17 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

The woman sinned and then introduced her husband to the same sin (as is usually the case). What did God do?

He cursed Eve and every woman to come with intense physical pain in childbirth.

And the man? God made the ground difficult to farm.

Do you see the difference in punishment?

Yes. I see the difference. I see that what happened was the result of humankind falling into sin. I see that pain in childbirth is a biological reality in the fallen world that we live in, and is not done at the hand of her husband and is therefore not the same as subjecting a wife to physical and emotional abuse.

I also see that Jesus was a living example of how we are to treat fellow human beings. Jesus saved a woman from stoning when she was caught in adultery, an offence, as you have no doubt pointed out elsewhere, that was punishable by death as stipulated in the Old Testament. Going against this law, then, Jesus saved her, illustrating His love and mercy and setting the example that Christians should follow. He showed mercy and love instead of violence, and He is the Son of God. How much more love and mercy, that does not involve violence, should you, as a fallen and sinful human being, show in return? Should you not be using Jesus' example as the template for your life, as He is the Son of God, the author of the faith you so vehemently defend, the Saviour of your soul?

Not once does the Bible give an account of Jesus using physical violence against a woman. If anything, it shows His incredible love, kindness, gentleness and mercy towards women. Not once does the Bible dictate that men should abuse their wives. Submission for wives, as prescribed by Paul, does not equate domination. Love does not equal violence. In fact, violence is the antithesis of love and therefore, attempting to justify physical abuse in the name of 'loving your wife' in a Biblical way is entirely invalid.

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: Avoiding Jail For Domestic "Violence"

While I'm at it, I would also like to point out that Jesus himself spared women from physical punishment and pain. To just point out one story among many I will quote this:

Just wanted to point out that you completely missed the point of this story. Jesus saving the woman from being stoned wasn't out of sparing her from physical punishment and pain. That wasn't his goal. He didn't see her and go "Oh, I don't want her to get hurt!"

No, the answer to the moral of the story lies in the phrase "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". The reason he saved the woman, was not for her own benefit, but instead the Pharisees (who were sinners) were trying to judge and punish her when they had no spiritual authority to do so.

I should point out as True Christians™ we are without sin (1 John 1:7, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:6-8, 1 John 3:6-9). Therefore, we have every right to throw stones. Remember: Jesus never said "Nobody throw stones!" He said "Only unsaved trash cannot throw stones!". Big difference.

[Brother Harold Porter]

Re: Avoiding Jail For Domestic "Violence"

Yes. I see the difference. I see that what happened was the result of humankind falling into sin. I see that pain in childbirth is a biological reality in the fallen world that we live in, and is not done at the hand of her husband and is therefore not the same as subjecting a wife to physical and emotional abuse.

I also see that Jesus was a living example of how we are to treat fellow human beings. Jesus saved a woman from stoning when she was caught in adultery, an offence, as you have no doubt pointed out elsewhere, that was punishable by death as stipulated in the Old Testament. Going against this law, then, Jesus saved her, illustrating His love and mercy and setting the example that Christians should follow. He showed mercy and love instead of violence, and He is the Son of God. How much more love and mercy, that does not involve violence, should you, as a fallen and sinful human being, show in return? Should you not be using Jesus' example as the template for your life, as He is the Son of God, the author of the faith you so vehemently defend, the Saviour of your soul?

Not once does the Bible give an account of Jesus using physical violence against a woman. If anything, it shows His incredible love, kindness, gentleness and mercy towards women. Not once does the Bible dictate that men should abuse their wives. Submission for wives, as prescribed by Paul, does not equate domination. Love does not equal violence. In fact, violence is the antithesis of love and therefore, attempting to justify physical abuse in the name of 'loving your wife' in a Biblical way is entirely invalid.

Can you be any more obtuse?

Genesis 3:16-17 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

God was very clear and concise in explaining the new role for the lesser sex. When "rules" are broken or violated, there are consequences. How else can order be maintained in society or the Christian home?

And without being as pretentious as you in trying to speak on behalf of Jesus Christ, we know that He was never married and subsequently had no need to rule over or discipline women. Christian mortal men are charged, by God, with this responsibility.

Kindly dispense with the callous associations of righteous discipline with "violence" and "abuse".

I'm afraid to ask where you stand on Godly punishment for wicked children. If your son told a lie, would you correct him with the rod as we are commanded?

Proverbs 13:24 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Or would your bleeding heart refrain, and watch his sins grow to the point that he is violently sodomizing his sister before you take any action at all?

I will pray for you.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Avoiding Jail For Domestic "Violence"

And yet you spare yourself the physical beatings. In keeping with your, albeit flawed and depraved, logic, here's a suggestion, how about you turn the belt on yourself next time first and see if your emotional pain really does equate her physical (and emotional) trauma.

Jesus was all about whipping of a man's property for disobedience. In His parable about watchfulness, he casually mentions the practice.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Avoiding Jail For Domestic "Violence"

I also see that Jesus was a living example of how we are to treat fellow human beings.

Where does it say that in the Holy Bible? It sounds like your personal interpretation, which is a serious sin.

2 Peter 1:20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Jesus had some choice words in the Holy Bible for unrepentant scum such as yourself. If you were at all familiar with the Bible, you wouldn't have such a ridiculous picture of our Lord.

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.--Luke 14:26

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.--Luke 19:27

[short n sweet]

Re: Avoiding Jail For Domestic "Violence"

And without being as pretentious as you in trying to speak on behalf of Jesus Christ, we know that He was never married and subsequently had no need to rule over or discipline women. Christian mortal men are charged, by God, with this responsibility.

Kindly dispense with the callous associations of righteous discipline with "violence" and "abuse".

I'm afraid to ask where you stand on Godly punishment for wicked children. If your son told a lie, would you correct him with the rod as we are commanded?

Proverbs 13:24 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

1. In defending my faith and attempting to have a rational discussion I was neither being pretentious nor attempting to speak for Christ. I merely quoted scripture and posed a reasonable inquiry into your interpretation of the verses. You, however, do appear to wish to speak for Christ himself, overlooking blatant contradictions with your beliefs and the scriptures to suit your perverted (and dare I say the word, sexist) perspective.

2. I absolutely refuse to sugar coat the truth in regards to your idea of 'discipline'. The last time I checked, punching, cutting and slapping a person (all things mentioned in this thread as forms of 'discipline') were still considered to be acts of violence. These violent assaults are traumatic in nature as well, classifying them as abusive. You can play with semantics until you're blue in the face, but violence is violence. I'm just calling it like it is. Just in case this does not satisfy you or should you wish to continue to defy the English language with your own definitions and continue to protest my use of these words, I will provide you will the definitions of these terms:

Oxford Dictionary:
Violence: 1 behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

Abuse: Treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly:

3. As to disciplining children, my stance is entirely the same. Violence is never the answer. Ever. Beating children is abusive, extremely harmful and against Biblical principles. The 'rod' as mentioned in your response should not be seen as literal (though you will no doubt object to that) and should instead be properly understood as the *metaphorical* rod of discipline. There are more effective and Biblical ways of disciplining a child without resorting to violence. Women, on the other hand, should not be seen as needing 'discipline' from anyone. They are grown adults capable of rational, intelligent thought and should be treated as equal and as worthy of respect as anyone else. The idea that a man needs to 'discipline' his wife is ridiculous, demeaning and frankly, sad and disgusting. It is simply the product of weak men bullying the most vulnerable in society, there's nothing Biblical about it.

[short n sweet]

Re: Avoiding Jail For Domestic "Violence"

Where does it say that in the Holy Bible? It sounds like your personal interpretation, which is a serious sin.

So by your interpretation, if I'm reading you correctly, Jesus' life, the way He treated those he encountered, His behaviour and His ministry are not to be emulated? The Gospels are just a bunch of nice stories, but really have no pertinence as to how Christians today should live their lives? That to me, sounds like a more serious sin than, God forbid, I strive to live the way Christ Himself lived.

Have fun with your hate. I'll hug you if I see you in heaven someday. You seem like someone in desperate need of a hug.

[God's Flaming Sword]

Re: Avoiding Jail For Domestic "Violence"

1. In defending my faith and attempting to have a rational discussion I was neither being pretentious nor attempting to speak for Christ. I merely quoted scripture and posed a reasonable inquiry into your interpretation of the verses. You, however, do appear to wish to speak for Christ himself, overlooking blatant contradictions with your beliefs and the scriptures to suit your perverted (and dare I say the word, sexist) perspective.

..and there is part of your problem...you interpret and cherry pick the parts of the bible that you like and want to follow - We choose to follow the bible exactly as it is written even if that means the hard parts like disciplining our loved ones. It pains us to do so but God commands it of us.

2. I absolutely refuse to sugar coat the truth in regards to your idea of 'discipline'. The last time I checked, punching, cutting and slapping a person (all things mentioned in this thread as forms of 'discipline') were still considered to be acts of violence. These violent assaults are traumatic in nature as well, classifying them as abusive. You can play with semantics until you're blue in the face, but violence is violence. I'm just calling it like it is. Just in case this does not satisfy you or should you wish to continue to defy the English language with your own definitions and continue to protest my use of these words, I will provide you will the definitions of these terms:

Oxford Dictionary:
Violence: 1 behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

Abuse: Treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly:

American is used on this website so Webster's should be your reference of choice....actually even that is wrong. The KJV should be your only book of reference and it quite clearly advocates several time to make sure even the dense get the point in Proverbs:


Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."
Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

God is quite clear that he wants True Christians to use force when it is felt to be needed.

3. As to disciplining children, my stance is entirely the same. Violence is never the answer. Ever. Beating children is abusive, extremely harmful and against Biblical principles. The 'rod' as mentioned in your response should not be seen as literal (though you will no doubt object to that) and should instead be properly understood as the *metaphorical* rod of discipline. There are more effective and Biblical ways of disciplining a child without resorting to violence. Women, on the other hand, should not be seen as needing 'discipline' from anyone. They are grown adults capable of rational, intelligent thought and should be treated as equal and as worthy of respect as anyone else. The idea that a man needs to 'discipline' his wife is ridiculous, demeaning and frankly, sad and disgusting. It is simply the product of weak men bullying the most vulnerable in society, there's nothing Biblical about it.

Yappity Yappity - same tree-hugging hippy nonsense. See tha above again.

[GodIsAlmighty]

Re: Avoiding Jail For Domestic "Violence"

So by your interpretation, if I'm reading you correctly, Jesus' life, the way He treated those he encountered, His behaviour and His ministry are not to be emulated? The Gospels are just a bunch of nice stories, but really have no pertinence as to how Christians today should live their lives? That to me, sounds like a more serious sin than, God forbid, I strive to live the way Christ Himself lived.

Have fun with your hate. I'll hug you if I see you in heaven someday. You seem like someone in desperate need of a hug.

Our "interpretation" of the bible is the bible itself! Word for word! In Mathew 10:34 Jesus said "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." There ain't no other way to "interpret" that! He didn't want peace on earth, he wanted the Christians to win!