[Calvinist]

Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History

I must agree with our pastor that God is beyond logic and in some cases also beyond reason. If we start defending His position with logic we are not only patronizing Him but also opening the chasm of potential fallacies that can be eventually used against us, for Satan. I demonstrate only a few points here:

1. Genesis 1:1
Beyond all logic. Logic says that nothing can come out of nothing. Yet God irrevocably demonstrates Creation ex nihilo. It is beyond logic. If we say it is logical then the ridiculous Big Bang can be defended by the same argument by replacing "God" with "Quantum fluctuations". That is NOT another name for God because it lacks sentience, awesomeness and direct interaction with us men in history. It is deism at best. But if we go beyond logic and accept that logical rules only apply to our understanding, we shall have a much more realistic view on God.

2. Causality is broken with God.
We are used to trusting causality in real life. Certain events (jumping off a roof) lead to predictable consequences. Not so with God and supernatural intervention. If we follow logic, miracles become violations of the rules, whereas we KNOW that the supernatural is the REAL state of being and the materialistic laws just a state of the Fallen world.

I had to go back and read what I wrote, as I hadn't meant that I disagree. I tread cautiously in this area, for many Charismatics open the door to a lot of practices by first convincing people that God, Jesus is not rational and logical, and if you argue with them, they come back and say that you're putting God in a box.

I agree with the statement by Pastor Isaac Peters, and as reiterated by you, Elmer. Creation ex nihilo, is beyond logic. It is beyond an unbelievers understanding, and I would say that miracles do become violations of rules, if only an act against science in and of itself, or how we simply just understand nature. Secularist can take logical steps up to Creation ex nihilo by observing Thermodynamics, which will eventually lead another to quite an obstacle on the topic of origination, I'd think, but I'm not an scientist.

Accept it. Repent. Get a baptism. Be saved. I enjoy these conversations and would like continue them in Heaven. As for now, I'm worried for your attachment to logic and defending an entity that really needs no defending. I'm praying for you, friend!

Done, Done, Done, Done, I also enjoy our conversations, and would like to continue them, the topics there will be quite different I'm sure, because I can't imagine apologetics will actually exist in Heaven. Praying for you too friend, and thank you for the edification.



God bless

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History

Jesus demonstrated Himself as not only rational but a master logician. I have a problem with accepting something as true solely on the basis of an emotional response as one may claim in all sincerity. I think the difference between what you had shared and what others claim is in part because someone with a sincere belief relies on something outside the Bible, or even unto an interpretation of the Scripture, but I think you are pointing to the Scripture and saying upholding it in sincerity.
Lastly, I think if you find anything that IS illogical in the Bible that that would be an invitation to deepen our understanding of Logic and How it pertains to Scripture.
Regarding the Omnipotent argument, I find it rather similar to the question, "Can God make a square circle."

I originally replied to this part of your response. I agree that sincere belief can be based on extra-scriptural "evidence" and that scientific data when properly examined against the background of the Bible can be used to assist the conversion of unbelievers. I have to disagree with "deepening the understanding of logic", however. Whenever you start applying logic to Scripture, the moment arrives when logic makes Scripture irrational and flawed, for instance, in the passages I quoted. It is a paradox.

We can look at the world and see how the masts and sails of a ship appear from beyond the horizon before the hull and ponder that according to the evidence of our senses and common sense the Earth is round. We can look at the attempts to prove logically, linguistically or with exegetics that the world view of the Bible is one of a round earth and decide that this probabilistic interpretation is adequate. Or we can look at the Bible and the actual four corners (Isaiah 11:12) and looking at all the kingdoms of the world from a high point (Luke 4:5) and see that in the world of the Bible the earth is not round but flat. And accept it. A paradox. Ridiculous from the viewpoints of science and logic. Illogical. Beyond logic.

You can be sincere but that is no defense if you oppose God.

I agree with the statement by Pastor Isaac Peters, and as reiterated by you, Elmer. Creation ex nihilo, is beyond logic. It is beyond unbelievers totally at this point, and I would point out that miracles do become violations of rules, if only an act against science in and of itself, or how we simply just understand nature.

I would like to expand this. As Creation is the pivotal moment, the beginning of time and place, it affects all the other aspects of Spirituality, as well. When the world is Created from beyond the reach of logic, we can never reach True Faith™ by logic. At the ultimate moment of re-birth in Jesus Christ it is always an obstacle. 100% or 0%. 99.999999999%= 0%.

I was a bit vain and I expected that you'd notice the connections of my earlier post to 1 Corinthians...

1st Corinthians 1:23-27
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

This is pivotal.
1. The foolish thing, the illogical, the ridiculous, opposed to science, the fallacious, contrary to common sense. We must choose that when Jesus asks for it.
2. The weakness, the sacrifice, voluntary temporary death on the Cross. Salvation.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Calvinist]

Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History

Thank you for taking the time to write your response Elmer. You have articulated through much, as I was lacking. I loved the way you explained the ship at sail. I am thankful for our fellowship, as you teach and edify me in the word of God.

Much love here,

God bless, and G'nite

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History

Thank you for taking the time to write your response Elmer. You have articulated through much, as I was lacking. I loved the way you explained the ship at sail. I am thankful for our fellowship, as you teach and edify me in the word of God.

Much love here,

Mr Calvinist, I do not wish to accuse you of unnatural practices, so I will just ask: you do know that Elmer is a man's name, don't you?

[Calvinist]

Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History

Mr Calvinist, I do not wish to accuse you of unnatural practices, so I will just ask: you do know that Elmer is a man's name, don't you?

And it is good that you do not wish to accuse me of such unnatural practices. Because I do not acknowledge unnatural acts as an example of Love. If I do not show brotherly love, I'd think that I'd be guilty of letting another redefine it. I was merely speaking as a brother in Christ, in which Elmer demonstrated by His love for God's word, and then in sharing it with me.

[Mister Jones]

Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History

Secular argument #15 - People don't like homos. Even homos don't like homos. Homos can't stand homos long enough to stick around after molesting each-other. Morality is an instinctual thing - if no one likes homos, why should homos be catered to? Why's homo marriage such a big deal? They're around 2 percent of the population, and few of them are even interested in having a serious marriage. Homo marriage isn't even important to homos, let alone everyone else!

[Des]

Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History

Secular argument #15 - People don't like homos. Even homos don't like homos. Homos can't stand homos long enough to stick around after molesting each-other. Morality is an instinctual thing - if no one likes homos, why should homos be catered to? Why's homo marriage such a big deal? They're around 2 percent of the population, and few of them are even interested in having a serious marriage. Homo marriage isn't even important to homos, let alone everyone else!

Commendably sound argument there. Good job!

[Mistress Cookie]

Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History

...Jesus reiterated these Scriptures when the "Left" and "Right" Hillel and Shammai tried to entrap Him.

Damn joos.

[Bob4God]

Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History

As Pastor Isaac Peters mentioned earlier, civil rights are in limited supply, and this heterosexual Kansas couple understands that.

Phil Unruh is an attorney in Kansas, and he agrees that giving rights to one group endangers the rights of another:

"And we feel married people have rights too and we want to speak up for our rights as married people. And we are concerned that a decision will be made and if a decision is going to be made we want to have our day in court as well.”

As Mr. Unruh explains, gay marriage is essentially an issue of homosexual infringement upon heterosexual property rights:

“We’re not sure what marriage means at this point and time. It meant what our constitution says it meant, since the beginning of civilization, now we don’t have a definition at all…If the Kansas City District Court finds our constitution amendment defining marriage is unconstitutional, I think, a decision that changes the word from meaning something to meaning nothing affects my rights, I think I have the right for it to stay the same.”

“We don’t want to have our word extended to include their relationship. We don’t want to share the word that we use for our relationship with theirs that’s deeply disturbing to me and my wife..."

You see, heterosexuals are harmed by gay marriage because it means they have to share words with gays that belong to exclusively to straight people.

Of course, the liberal judges in Kansas have told the Unruhs they cannot join the case, and right this minute a hearing is underway in a Kansas City courthouse where the Unruh's property is being seized by the government without due process!

I weep for my country!

[Jack Rankan]

Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History

I have looked in the issue in my thread defeating homers with their own "logic", as we all know, true logic comes from God, Jesus and the Bible. You can read about it her http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=94602