[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hi

As for that, find me one official canonical church document where the Big bang and Evolution are denied. I'm not talking about the peculiar sermon you heard 10 years ago done by a half-witted lukewarm priest, or what you read in the newspaper and biased media sources.

I'm talking about the depository of the catholic faith, documents from coucils, encyclical letters, the catechism, and the Denzinger.

You will not ever find it. The reason is simple: we do not believe that God made everything as is, we believed he made a Universe that evolves and that certainly allows for the big bang and evolution. Science and the catholic faith are compatible. Science and whatever the people here believe are definitely IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile though.

Evolution denied. Again, De humani generis.

6. Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy which, rivaling idealism, immanentism and pragmatism, has assumed the name of existentialism, since it concerns itself only with existence of individual things and neglects all consideration of their immutable essences.

No use to waste a verse here...


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[kehei1]

Re: Hi

Evolution denied. Again, De humani generis.



No use to waste a verse here...


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

The "fictitious tenets of evolution" in question here are the theory of POLYGENISM. THIS is what is being condemned in this encyclical.

The church teaches monogenism, i.e. that we all come for the first human couple and that eveyone can be traced back to it.

You didn't try that hard to read this encyclical did you?

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hi

The "authentic tenets of evolution" in question here are the theory of POLYGENISM. THIS is what is being condemned in this encyclical.

The church teaches monogenism, i.e. that we all come for the first human couple and that eveyone can be traced back to it.

You didn't try that hard to read this encyclical did you?

Oh, Dear.

Evolutionary theory is all about polygenism regarding humans. The mitochondrial Eves and Y-chromosome Adams were never meant to be literal. Evolutionists claim there was a population that gradually became human and that the bottlenecks not necessarily coincide with these crucial evolutionary events.

You really need to study, first, the Bible; then, the opposition. Of course, I'm praying for you.

As for the 'Big Bang', your people invented it as an ad hoc attempt to reconcile the catholics with modernity. Why would they oppose it?

"The church teaches monogenism"?? Really? Ever heard of Mr. Ratzinger.?.. He and the InternationalTheological Commission 2004 said as follows:

"While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens."

Population. Total submission to evolution. In total opposition to Pius XII. POLYGENISM.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

PS. The slander of my inadequate reading of the encyclical is actually a fallacy, no, two of them. Ad hominem combined to ad ridiculum. Look them up.

[Jim Farmer]

Re: Hi

I am appalled at the impudence of this imposter papist. For a start, he has quoted just one verse from the Holy Bible. The rest of his argument stems entirely from papist propaganda.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The premise for the theory that this refers to Peter as the rock, is based on the Greek word for rock which is petra. But the Greek word for Peter though, is petros meaning little rock, or pebble. Do you really believe that Jesus would want to found his Church on a pebble or does it make more sense that he would found it on a big rock or bedrock?

Matthew 7:24-25 clarifies this: 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
A storm would surely destroy that house if it were founded on pebbles. so Jesus clearly means His Church should be founded on bedrock.

Anyway, only a few verses past the the one about Peter and the rock comes this:
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Wow! Does anyone really think that Jesus would have said that to His appointed heir? Not likely!

Matthew 26:69-75 69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. 70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. 71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. 73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. 74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Peter denied Jesus three times!

I find it interesting that Keven can only quote one verse of the Bible. Has he even read it? And why do the papists discourage their members from reading the Bible? It's because of things such as I've just pointed out. The papists don't want people to know the truth.

[Faith_Machine]

Re: Hi

Hello, I have just subscribed to the forum.

It said I should present myself here.

So I am doing that. I'm called Keven, I'm a catholic. I study mathematics, and I've studied some cannon law and theology (not only catholic theology).

Those are my interests. And I have made an account on this forum because I was in awe at the content.

Honestly I've never seen that much hate in the name of Jesus. Your banner of him speaking the words you put into his mouth, basically Jesus making a joke out of people in hell, is extremely offensive to any decent christian.

You actually have a smiley of a yellow God damned pac-man on a cross? Are you mocking the death of Jesus?

Anyways, I was extremely curious about what is going on here. I have here only to discuss and seek the truth, I have absolutely no other intention. So I hope I can look forward to some discussions.

Sorry, I stopped reading at the word, "Catholic."

Somebody let me know if this ring kisser has anything of substance to say, OK?

[Alvin Moss]

Re: Hi

Hello, I have just subscribed to the forum.

It said I should present myself here.

So I am doing that. I'm called Keven, I'm a catholic. I study mathematics, and I've studied some cannon law and theology (not only catholic theology).

Those are my interests. And I have made an account on this forum because I was in awe at the content.

Honestly I've never seen that much hate in the name of Jesus. Your banner of him speaking the words you put into his mouth, basically Jesus making a joke out of people in hell, is extremely offensive to any decent christian.

You actually have a smiley of a yellow God damned pac-man on a cross? Are you mocking the death of Jesus?

Anyways, I was extremely curious about what is going on here. I have here only to discuss and seek the truth, I have absolutely no other intention. So I hope I can look forward to some discussions.

Kevin, (forgive me if I correct the spelling of your name) we are Christians here and we come here for fellowship with other Christians. In a demonstration of Christian charity, we welcome all to come here to join with us in praising Him. Sadly, many come here to attack us and denigrate our love for Jesus. You are one such, a foul mouthed Roman Catholic.

Why do you use strong language in your introduction? If you want to offend us, you have done a fine job. If God's word offends you, you will have an opportunity to explain to Him His error. However, my advice would be to forgo that pleasure, as you are in enough trouble already.

[kehei1]

Re: Hi

Oh, Dear.

Evolutionary theory is all about polygenism regarding humans. The mitochondrial Eves and Y-chromosome Adams were never meant to be literal. Evolutionists claim there was a population that gradually became human and that the bottlenecks not necessarily coincide with these crucial evolutionary events.

You really need to study, first, the Bible; then, the opposition. Of course, I'm praying for you.

As for the 'Big Bang', your people invented it as an ad hoc attempt to reconcile the catholics with modernity. Why would they oppose it?

"The church teaches monogenism"?? Really? Ever heard of Mr. Ratzinger.?.. He and the InternationalTheological Commission 2004 said as follows:


Population. Total submission to evolution. In total opposition to Pius XII. POLYGENISM.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

PS. The slander of my inadequate reading of the encyclical is actually a fallacy, no, two of them. Ad hominem combined to ad ridiculum. Look them up.

The church teaches monogenism you ignorant fool, how dare you tell me to study when you're the one who doesn't get it?

Polygenism means there would be more than one original human couple and would destroy the doctrine on original sin. So of course the church preaches against it, and of course Humani Generis condemns those tenets of evolution. The church has never taught evolution as something that cannot be believed. Ratzinger's comments on it is compatible with church teachings.


As for the other guy's rant about Peter meaning pebble, that is some pretty ridiculous crap.

Look at Matthew 16:

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


And you dare say that the very words of Christ are ridiculous by saying he would never build his church on a pebble? You are blatantly ignorant of the Bible here. I am not the one who needs to read it.

Of course Peter sinned, denied Jesus, got called "Satan" by him. But after Pentecost, the holy spirit sanctified him, and made him the true bearer of the KEYS of heaven and earth. And Jesus says THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST HER. So there goes your stupid little "the church is corrupted" theory.

Half-witted bible muncher are no fun to debate against...

[kehei1]

Re: Hi

And Elmer, don't think I haven't noticed that of all my arguments you have only commented about the one on evolution since you thought you had a shot at successfully arguing against me.

What about all the other stuff I said?

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hi

My dear,

You have a hard time controlling your hate and anger. While this is sad, I try to make things simple for you.

The point as follows: Popes disagree. Yet they are supposedly infallible. Pius XII says monogenism is correct. Benedict, the Ratzinger guy, says there was a population of humans 150000 years ago. A population, not a pair. Many human beings. Benedict steps away from the infallible monogenism of Pius. Both cannot be right at the same time.

This is only one example, of course. Popes have apologized for their predecessors' decisions many times.

Galilei.

Anger is, however, good. It shows there must be some decency in you and the demon is fighting to keep the upper hand. There is hope. I'm still praying for you, dear child!




Yours in Christ,

Elmer

PS. Please, check what ad hominem means. You'll be surprised how heavily your posts rely on it. I'm actually on your side and wish to lead you to Heaven even if you wish to keep on harming yourself with the heathen religion!

[kehei1]

Re: Hi

My dear,

You have a hard time controlling your hate and anger. While this is sad, I try to make things simple for you.

The point as follows: Popes disagree. Yet they are supposedly infallible. Pius XII says monogenism is correct. Benedict, the Ratzinger guy, says there was a population of humans 150000 years ago. A population, not a pair. Many human beings. Benedict steps away from the infallible monogenism of Pius. Both cannot be right at the same time.

This is only one example, of course. Popes have apologized for their predecessors' decisions many times.

Galilei.

Anger is, however, good. It shows there must be some decency in you and the demon is fighting to keep the upper hand. There is hope. I'm still praying for you, dear child!




Yours in Christ,

Elmer

PS. Please, check what ad hominem means. You'll be surprised how heavily your posts rely on it. I'm actually on your side and wish to lead you to Heaven even if you wish to keep on harming yourself with the heathen religion!

I am a student of logic so stop the lecture about as hominem please, this fallacy is thought on day one of course 1 of logic 101, you're not impressing anyone with that.

You just fail to see that my arguments do not depend on personal attacks even though they may be there.....but hey, I guess I'm the one who needs to learn about fallacies!


The "initial population of humans" mentionned by ratzinger are HOMINIDS, that is what he is making a reference to. Ratzinger knows and believes that we humans have one single common pair of ancestors, whom it calls Adam and Eve. You're interested in fallacies? Check ou "Straw Man" maybe you'll learn something....

And I am not heathen, I am in the body of the very church that Christ established after the ressurection. You are the one rolling yourself in pagan mud and loving it here.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Hi

As for that, find me one official canonical church document where the Big bang and Evolution are denied. I'm not talking about the peculiar sermon you heard 10 years ago done by a half-witted lukewarm priest, or what you read in the newspaper and biased media sources.

I'm talking about the depository of the catholic faith, documents from coucils, encyclical letters, the catechism, and the Denzinger.

You will not ever find it. The reason is simple: we do not believe that God made everything as is, we believed he made a Universe that evolves and that certainly allows for the big bang and evolution. Science and the catholic faith are compatible. Science and whatever the people here believe are definitely IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile though.

You're confused. Your encyclicals and letters and "papal authority" change their messages all the time. I know because I too was born and raised (just like you, without my approval) to believe in the Catholic faith. It's only when I began to take my faith very seriously, when I put its claims to the test, did I see the vagueness, evasiveness, and outright deception.

You forget your church condemned misinterpretation of the Holy Word back when Copernicus spoke out in favor of heliocentrism. It's only when the rest of society refused to maintain loyalty to the Word of God that the church was dragged, kicking and screaming, into "modern science." They didn't do this because the Holy Ghost led them, as is clear from any rudimentary peek into the annals of history, but because they feared loosing supporters.

The same thing happened with Darwin and his theory of evolution. Your church makes vague pronouncements that state any conflicts between science and the Church are not real, and that belief in such conflicts are predicated on false assumptions. It then goes on to make vague assertions that it's okay to believe in evolution so long as one believes that the individual soul is a direct creation by God and not the product of purely material forces. Well, duh (pardon my French). All True Christians™ know the soul is a supernatural and not a natural element. Your church thinks it can hide behind this evasive doublespeak because it creates an environment of pop-fandom for popes. I mean think about it, Pope Benedict tried to downplay evolution and the Catholic masses cheered. Pope Francis downplays creationism and the Catholic masses cheer. There's no discerning truth from fantasy, fact from fiction, it's all understood to be "true" from the perspective of the CEO of your organization as the center of knowledge. How very convenient.

Go back and read some of your church's older encyclicals. Go find out why they wanted the Jews to wear gold patches on their clothes to identify them in public. Go find out why compelling one to convert under torture was once considered the most compassionate thing to do. Find out what "Truths" were so important to die for, that are today forgotten or refuted.

Go learn about your church, son. Learn what it's claims really are.

[kehei1]

Re: Hi

Also, it is interesting how you completely ignored my arguments about the foundation of the Bible.

You have no rebuttal right? You know very well that it is the Holy Catholic Church that has fixed the canon of the Original Bible, and that your belief in the Bible is in fact an apology of the Church!

But you cleverly ignored that part and set up a straw man on the doctrine of evolution......so dishonest.

And please don't talk to me about hate, people here think torturing your children is a good deed.....I subscribed to this forum only because of the sheer amount of hate I found in here. People saying torturing children is good, Pastors telling people they have demons in their rectum, and I know you approve of all that. So you are filled with hate. Me, I came here out of compassion, hoping that you stray away from your God-forsaken pagan church.

And what about the argument about the thousands of branches of protestantism? About the authority of the baptist church? Are you purposefully ignoring all of that?

[Alvin Moss]

Re: Hi

You seem angry, Kevin. Why not calm down a bit and try to get right with Jesus instead of spewing your Catholic vitriol.

[kehei1]

Re: Hi

You're confused. Your encyclicals and letters and "papal authority" change their messages all the time. I know because I too was born and raised (just like you, without my approval) to believe in the Catholic faith. It's only when I began to take my faith very seriously, when I put its claims to the test, did I see the vagueness, evasiveness, and outright deception.

You forget your church condemned misinterpretation of the Holy Word back when Copernicus spoke out in favor of heliocentrism. It's only when the rest of society refused to maintain loyalty to the Word of God that the church was dragged, kicking and screaming, into "modern science." They didn't do this because the Holy Ghost led them, as is clear from any rudimentary peek into the annals of history, but because they feared loosing supporters.

The same thing happened with Darwin and his theory of evolution. Your church makes vague pronouncements that state any conflicts between science and the Church are not real, and that belief in such conflicts are predicated on false assumptions. It then goes on to make vague assertions that it's okay to believe in evolution so long as one believes that the individual soul is a direct creation by God and not the product of purely material forces. Well, duh (pardon my French). All True Christians™ know the soul is a supernatural and not a natural element. Your church thinks it can hide behind this evasive doublespeak because it creates an environment of pop-fandom for popes. I mean think about it, Pope Benedict tried to downplay evolution and the Catholic masses cheered. Pope Francis downplays creationism and the Catholic masses cheer. There's no discerning truth from fantasy, fact from fiction, it's all understood to be "true" from the perspective of the CEO of your organization as the center of knowledge. How very convenient.

Go back and read some of your church's older encyclicals. Go find out why they wanted the Jews to wear gold patches on their clothes to identify them in public. Go find out why compelling one to convert under torture was once considered the most compassionate thing to do. Find out what "Truths" were so important to die for, that are today forgotten or refuted.

Go learn about your church, son. Learn what it's claims really are.

I think I have mentioned having studied canon law and theology? I know very well what my church's claims are. And there are NO contradictions.

The CEO? JESUS made him CEO don't you get it? He gave Peter the KEYS. Read matthew 16 please. And you can read through the New Testament while you're at it, they do name a successor for Peter and he does have his authority, and this has been done up to today, and Pope Francis now has those KEYS.


Heliocentrism is NOT against the Bible. That is why in front of the very strong evidence of its truth, the church accepted it. THIS DOES NOT MATTER. The church is infallible ONLY in matters of FAITH and MORALS, as teaches the holy Council of Vatican (the first one).

Creationnism is compatible with evolution. It just means that god created things gradually and beautifully in time, he didn't just make everything we know of today pop out magically as is. Don't you see that the big bang and evolution are just God's tools to make the word? And how it does NOT deny God's great creative action that brought us into being?

[kehei1]

Re: Hi

You seem angry, Kevin. Why not calm down a bit and try to get right with Jesus instead of spewing your Catholic vitriol.

"Spewing your catholic vitriol" sounds pretty angry too, Alvin.

Why not calm down a bit and try to get right with Jesus instead of spewing your protestant vitriol.