[Jim Farmer]

Re: Hello!

I forgot to include the part about Mary! I can't explain it as well as these people can, so I'll just post the links to a couple of websites.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin

http://carm.org/roman-catholicism-mary-idolatry

Your first link there relies on the apocrypha - which are known to be forgeries.
Your second link - I think you should read again. It comes to the following conclusion:

Does the Roman Catholic Church promote idolatry? According to the scripture and its own practices, yes it does.

"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry." (1Corinthians 10:14).

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Hello!

"One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.*

Who are the saints, according to the Bible?

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Hello!

Okay, thanks! Although I don't believe you understood what I meant (I am pretty bad at explaining things), it's interesting to hear what Baptists think of us. We don't use saints as a medium of prayer, we ask for them to pray for a cause. It's like that prayer request section of these forums, you're not using the other people as a medium of prayer, you're asking them to pray with you.

How can they hear you, when they are asleep in the Lord and will not awaken until the Rapture?

[1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 KJV] 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

By the way, if you don't pray to Mary, why does the Catechism of the Catholic Church (par. 2679) say that you do?

[Evelyn the Papist]

Re: Hello!

Ha ha, yeah, I guess it might seem that way. Here's a breif explanation for you!

"One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.*

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!*

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.*"

Aside from that, what did you make of the articles on Mary?



*(P.S. Ouija Boards are sinful and unholy according to Catholic doctrine.)

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: Hello!

Okay, thanks! Although I don't believe you understood what I meant (I am pretty bad at explaining things), it's interesting to hear what Baptists think of us. We don't use saints as a medium of prayer, we ask for them to pray for a cause. It's like that prayer request section of these forums, you're not using the other people as a medium of prayer, you're asking them to pray with you.

So are you saying that you ask dead people to pray for a cause? It is one thing for us to ask our fellow Christians to join us in prayer, and quite another to ask dead people to do so. How do you communicate with these dead "saints", exactly - by ouija board?

[Evelyn the Papist]

Re: Hello!

I forgot to include the part about Mary! I can't explain it as well as these people can, so I'll just post the links to a couple of websites.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin

http://carm.org/roman-catholicism-mary-idolatry

[Evelyn the Papist]

Re: Hello!

Okay, thanks! Although I don't believe you understood what I meant (I am pretty bad at explaining things), it's interesting to hear what Baptists think of us. We don't use saints as a medium of prayer, we ask for them to pray for a cause. It's like that prayer request section of these forums, you're not using the other people as a medium of prayer, you're asking them to pray with you.

[Alvin Moss]

Re: Hello!

Greetings from America! My name is Evelyn, though my username is General E. Specific. I am 15 years old, and a cradle Catholic. I'm here to learn a bit more about the baptist faith, and to see other people's opinions of Catholic docterine. I'm very happy to be here, and hope I can learn a thing or two!

"Cradle Catholic" is a term well known to us. It is similar to "Red Diaper Baby", in that it refers primarily to the sin of the parents, but like the latter term, it infers that the sinful wretchedness has been passed along to the child. You may have been indoctrinated into this sin, young lady, but now you are the one who commits the sinful acts of the Roman church. It is your responsibility to throw off the Roman yoke.

I don't know why you people always insist that you don't pray to saints and Mary, the mother of Jesus. You do so! Asking for their help in getting to Jesus is the same thing as praying to them. You don't need a lawyer with Jesus, child. He's not like a city councilman selling favors.

I urge you to renounce your allegiance to the Roman Pope and come to Jesus before it's too late. It's that or Hell. Don't go there; it's too hot.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Hello!

And just for your information, we do NOT worship the saints. We view them as people who have lived good and godly lives and are to be followed as an example. We ask for them to pray for us (because they are closer to god than we are currently), which is another concept entirely. We also don't worship Mary, we view her as the wonderful woman who said yes to God and a powerful, loving saint in heaven who is especially close to God. We do not pray to, we ask for their prayers!

So they're mediators between you and God? Do you know what the Bible says about that?

[1 Timothy 2:5 KJV] 5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

One. How difficult a concept is that?

And "stupid women", huh? I don't think Jesus viewed women that way:

Jesus is God, and God says the following about women:

[1 Timothy 2:14 KJV] 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[Jim Farmer]

Re: Hello!

What is the rosary all about?

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are you among all women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus, Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death.

How many times in your short life have you repeated these words?
In direct conflict with Matthew 6:7. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
And they tell you that reciting that rubbish will save your soul? Ha - it will condemn you to Hell, because it's directly against what Jesus said. Think about that.

Mary was a sinner like everyone else (Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;). She was not a perpetual virgin (Matthew 13:55-56 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?), was not immaculately conceived, wasn't bodily assumed into Heaven (Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:), and she doesn't intercede on our behalf (1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus).

It was Pius IX who declared the immaculate conception in 1854 (only 160 years ago).

We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

What? Where did God reveal this? Certainly not in the Bible, and if it were the case, He surely would have. No, Pius made it up. Because for 1,850 years, she was not born of immaculate conception.

[Pim Pendergast]

Re: Hello!

And just for your information, we do NOT worship the saints. We view them as people who have lived good and godly lives and are to be followed as an example. We ask for them to pray for us.

Jesus told us we could pray to directly to Him.

Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Jn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Then He told us we could pray directly to the Father.

Jn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
[. . .]
Jn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Jn 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

However, Jesus does still have an intercessory role in heaven, but whatever that role is, it obviously doesn't involve passing our prayers on.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The Holy Spirit, however, prays on our behalf because we don't know what we should pray for in the first place, even though Jesus Himself taught us twice (Mat 6:9-13; Lk 11:2-4).

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

We don't need to pray to saints to pray for us. That's a very roundabout way of doing things. God prefers a much more direct approach.

And "stupid women", huh? I don't think Jesus viewed women that way.

Here's another example of how Jesus spoke to a woman.

Mat 15:22-26
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

We judge saints as good examples because it is reasonable to assume so.

The fewer assumptions you make, the less likely you are to be wrong.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hello!

We judge saints as good examples because we've been brainwashed to believe it is reasonable to assume so. We judge them as role models because of what we've been told by people who would never, ever, lie (the Vatican!!! srsly??!) are their godly habits and virtue, and because of these things we've been brainwashed to believe it is reasonable to assume that they would go to heaven, and therefore be decent models...

FTFY.

The entire concept of "saints" (as Catholics view them) has NO Biblical foundation.

The idea that people are in Heaven now (aside from a handpicked very few, such as Lazarus [not the raised-from-the-dead Lazarus, the rich-man/poor-man parable Lazarus] and Enoch) has NO Biblical foundation. How does anyone get into Heaven before the Judgement??

[Jim Farmer]

Re: Hello!

I think we should go easy on this one. After all, she's only 15 and still a child. A brainwashed child. Soon, she'll start thinking for herself, and realise that all she's been told in papist masses and papist schools is wrong. After all, she's come to this forum seeking the truth. So there is hope for her yet.

[Evelyn the Papist]

Re: Hello!

We judge saints as good examples because it is reasonable to assume so. We judge them as role models because of their godly habits and virtue, and because of these things it is reasonable to assume that they would go to heaven, and therefore be decent models. Do you have no response to the other parts of my post?

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hello!

...We ask for them to pray for us (because they are closer to god than we are currently)...

Wow, you have drank the Romish koolaid, huh?

Biblical proof that ANYONE has gone to Heaven (aside from Lazarus, Enoch, and Jesus [He doesn't really count, tho, He lives there])?

Think: if everyone goes to Heaven (or Hell) when they die, why does Revelation say that the Judgement happens after Christ's return?