Are you guys for real?

[Evilutionist Clive]

Howdy, from the Southern Hemisphere

Let me just briefly introduce first. I am a social type, always looking to make new friends. I'm from Aus, working as the manager (sales) for a tattoos supply company. Tell me, Cool, huh? Everyone loves it.


I like to party a lot mostly in Bali or Macau. I have lived in California between 2011-2013. I really loved the US but never really got the opportunity to experience anything outside of Cali, Las Vegas, Florida and New York. You know I have been told that the whole Flyover region is really backwoods and one shouldn't even set foot there. Now don't yell at me, it's mostly my American friends living on the coast that say this sort of thing. I know better than that. I'd really love to savour an authentic Texas BBQ. I'm totally cool with Christians (I'm atheist). Even the Creationist types. But yes, don't hit me with the Bible. Heh heh.


Single, straight and superb. Yea, that's all about me.


----


All right now coming to my main question and concerns. I've been browsing this forum for a while and I must say, you folks are kinda cute but do you really believe in all the things you spout here? I get it that the people in interior America can be very religious. But still?

I don't really get it. How can be anyone so deluded as to suggest that Evolution never happened, that there should be a death penalty for masturbation, or the pre-Jurassic period existence of Dinosaurs is nothing but Satan's trick?

I know Jesus is cool but come on, you don't really believe in that sort of nonsense, do you? I know it's on the Bible but you tell me you don't exactly share these beliefs?

Evolution is backed by real science. You might ask why do I believe this? Well, my family raised me that way. My brother works for Monash University in the School of Physics & Astronomy. In my circle of friends, I don't know a single person who advances a literalist understanding of the Bible. I know you might not like it but they often make fun of Biblical characters. When I was in California, most people I met had identical views.


Many of the arguments you use which are anti-evolution by quoting literal verses do not hold up in a serious debate involving scientists. If you think of it, the Bible is just a book written down by bored ancient Jewish men who didn't have access to Electric Razors or the Internet.


OK just allow me to respectfully defend the Evolutionist position. Not trying to convince you but you see going against Scientific consensus does not sit well with most peeps nowadays.


Most Creationists like to say that Evolution is just a theory. Not facts or scientific laws. That's not correct. There's abundant fossil records and carbon dating tastes that debunk these ideas. Not thousands of scientists can be wrong at the same time, what do you say?


The scientific consensus today is that human Beings came from Apes, and Apes came from other mammals further below the evolutionary ladder. The Big Bang Theory is the only logical evidence of the Universe's beginning.


Speaking of The Big Bang Theory, do you guys like to watch the namesake CBS show? That's the only thing I like to watch on TV. It's genuinely funny. I love the character called Sheldon Cooper played by Jim Parsons. I also like the other characters including Howard Wolowitz. That show won a Golden Globe and an Emmy's.


Just like to have a free and independent discussion on Creationism. I'd like to know your views. Please don't just quote from the Bible. Provide me scientific evidence. Thanks.

G'day one and all.
Clyde

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: Are you guys for real?

Welcome, friend!

I’ve always meant to visit Austria but I’ve never had the time with my dutulies for Christ.

What church do you go to, what is your favourite Bible(KJV1611) verse and when did you start your walk with Christ?

YIC

[Evilutionist Clive]

Re: Are you guys for real?

Welcome, friend!

I’ve always meant to visit Austria but I’ve never had the time with my dutulies for Christ.

Thank you mate! You got the geography a bit mixed up. I know it's probably in jest but just to clarify things here.


I don't live in Austria. That's a small landlocked country in Europe and they speak German. That's where Adolf Hitler comes from.


I'm from Australia -- we love a good barbie (i.e. barbeque), beaches and beautiful babes. You'd love them. We speak English.


See -- this map will help clear things.

What church do you go to, what is your favourite Bible(KJV1611) verse and when did you start your walk with Christ?

YIC

I'm atheist. My parents were atheists and we were raised to believe only in Science. But I do have Christian friends.


I am scared of churches and other buildings reeking of religion. I stay away from them. But as I said I do love Christians.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Are you guys for real?

Dear sinner,

By God's Grace and Mercy (Jonah 4:2) you've found our Forum. Now you have a chance for Salvation (John 3:18). It is a privilege to assess you uninformed claims as follows:

I don't really get it. How can be anyone so deluded as to suggest that Evolution never happened, that there should be a death penalty for masturbation, or the pre-Jurassic period existence of Dinosaurs is nothing but Satan's trick?

I know Jesus is cool but come on, you don't really believe in that sort of nonsense, do you? I know it's on the Bible but you tell me you don't exactly share these beliefs?

Evolution is backed by real science. You might ask why do I believe this? Well, my family raised me that way. My brother works for Monash University in the School of Physics & Astronomy. In my circle of friends, I don't know a single person who advances a literalist understanding of the Bible. I know you might not like it but they often make fun of Biblical characters. When I was in California, most people I met had identical views.

This is simply an appeal to authority. "Because your family says something it must be true." It is a fallacy. Please, check it up and study some basics of philosophy of science. The actual evidence is decided upon the veracity of a claim, not if your pals support it. We also refer to authorities (and admit it). They are called God and the Bible. People I meet have identical views. These arguments are similar to yours. Does it mean that you accept them now? In addition, please, do not put too much trust in relatives (Luke 14:26).

Many of the arguments you use which are anti-evolution by quoting literal verses do not hold up in a serious debate involving scientists. If you think of it, the Bible is just a book written down by bored ancient Jewish men who didn't have access to Electric Razors or the Internet.

This is an ad ridiculum comment, another fallacy, the actual content of our many claims is not addressed, instead, you make fun of them. If I say that unbelievers are cute and funny, does it make God more real? it must, based on your logic!

OK just allow me to respectfully defend the Evolutionist position. Not trying to convince you but you see going against Scientific consensus does not sit well with most peeps nowadays.

Most Creationists like to say that Evolution is just a theory. Not facts or scientific laws. That's not correct. There's abundant fossil records and carbon dating tastes that debunk these ideas. Not thousands of scientists can be wrong at the same time, what do you say?

This is a simple appeal to numbers or ad populum. It is a very weak argument, as it is usually derived by neglecting other numbers. There are hundreds of millions of people who do not accept evolution. They can't be wrong at the same time, can they? As you can see, ad populum is a fallacy (an argumentative device that is irrelevant to prove a point but can create or harbor false beliefs). The Bible also tells us that the majority is not necessarily right.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Thus, numbers are inadequate as evidence.

The scientific consensus today is that human Beings came from Apes, and Apes came from other mammals further below the evolutionary ladder. The Big Bang Theory is the only logical evidence of the Universe's beginning.

Speaking of The Big Bang Theory, do you guys like to watch the namesake CBS show? That's the only thing I like to watch on TV. It's genuinely funny. I love the character called Sheldon Cooper played by Jim Parsons. I also like the other characters including Howard Wolowitz. That show won a Golden Globe and an Emmy's.

First, you have simple statements without actual material to consider. Next, you make a smokescreen (you guessed it - it is a fallacy) by referring to a TV show. The Bing Bang theory falls or thrives based on evidence, not because of comedic entertainment.

Just like to have a free and independent discussion on Creationism. I'd like to know your views. Please don't just quote from the Bible. Provide me scientific evidence. Thanks.

G'day one and all.
Clyde

Dear Clyde, Creationism (that we adhere to) is based on the Bible. They way to discuss it is to know the Bible and respect it. Please provide us with Spiritual evidence, why the Bible should be disregarded.

Thank you for your interest in God's Favorite Forum and I'm looking forward to actual evidence material from you. Please, study also the fallacies and avoid, e.g., tu quoque in your future communications.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Evilutionist Clive]

Re: Are you guys for real?

Dear sinner,

By God's Grace and Mercy (Jonah 4:2) you've found our Forum. Now you have a chance for Salvation (John 3:18). It is a privilege to assess you uninformed claims as follows:

This is simply an appeal to authority. "Because your family says something it must be true." It is a fallacy. Please, check it up and study some basics of philosophy of science. The actual evidence is decided upon the veracity of a claim, not if your pals support it. We also refer to authorities (and admit it). They are called God and the Bible. People I meet have identical views. These arguments are similar to yours. Does it mean that you accept them now? In addition, please, do not put too much trust in relatives (Luke 14:26).

This is an ad ridiculum comment, another fallacy, the actual content of our many claims is not addressed, instead, you make fun of them. If I say that unbelievers are cute and funny, does it make God more real? it must, based on your logic!

This is a simple appeal to numbers or ad populum. It is a very weak argument, as it is usually derived by neglecting other numbers. There are hundreds of millions of people who do not accept evolution. They can't be wrong at the same time, can they? As you can see, ad populum is a fallacy (an argumentative device that is irrelevant to prove a point but can create or harbor false beliefs). The Bible also tells us that the majority is not necessarily right.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Thus, numbers are inadequate as evidence.
First, you have simple statements without actual material to consider. Next, you make a smokescreen (you guessed it - it is a fallacy) by referring to a TV show. The Bing Bang theory falls or thrives based on evidence, not because of comedic entertainment.

Dear Clyde, Creationism (that we adhere to) is based on the Bible. They way to discuss it is to know the Bible and respect it. Please provide us with Spiritual evidence, why the Bible should be disregarded.

Thank you for your interest in God's Favorite Forum and I'm looking forward to actual evidence material from you. Please, study also the fallacies and avoid, e.g., tu quoque in your future communications.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

I am impressed that you are well-versed in philosophy and Greek logic. I did not make any off-the-cuff remarks apart from mentioning that TV show called Big Bang Theory (I just wanted to know whether you love it or not? That TV show is really amazing for Science lovers).


When I'm referring to THOUSANDS of scientists, it means 98-99% of scientists around the world who have a consensus on the Big Bang Theory and Evolution. Yes, a minority holds opinions such as Creationism but they don't say it in public because they'll be laughed out of town. And you know it very well.


With due respect, how can Bible be the only source of evidence of such an unprovable opinion? When you want to debate such a divisive topic, you need something more than the Bible as your proof?


Anyway, I do understand where you're coming from on this. Still I'd respect a scientific evidence-based opinion. If anyone can provide it?


I have never seen God. It may actually be an illusion.


Neuroscientists in fact, have discovered a corner of the brain which is concerned with religion, spirituality and other mumbo-jumbo beliefs. Again you must watch "The Big Bang Theory" on CBS. They address these kinds of superstitious topics.


There is no God. There is nothing called a soul. It's just a complex brain which produces these illusions. I believe spirituality is hokey. Neuroscientists have identified corners of the human brain which produce those delusions.


The Ancient Jews did not have any successful neuroscientists and anthropologists amid their surroundings. That is why they created all that mumbo-jumbo which has been passed down the ages.



Thanks. But these are my beliefs. I welcome you to dispute them with scientific evidence.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Are you guys for real?

When I'm referring to THOUSANDS of scientists, it means 98-99% of scientists around the world who have a consensus on the Big Bang Theory and Evolution. Yes, a minority holds opinions such as Creationism but they don't say it in public because they'll be laughed out of town. And you know it very well.

Yes, we know this. And still, it is an appeal to numbers. You're in a small minority (9-13 %) when it comes to atheism/religion. What is the percentage of believers that your logic requires to make your atheism invalid? We certainly agree that the Truth™ is not something to be decided by popular vote.

With due respect, how can Bible be the only source of evidence of such an unprovable opinion? When you want to debate such a divisive topic, you need something more than the Bible as your proof?

Actually, it seems that you need something more besides the Bible. I don't!

Mark 12:24
And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Anyway, I do understand where you're coming from on this. Still I'd respect a scientific evidence-based opinion. If anyone can provide it?

I have never seen God. It may actually be an illusion.

Neuroscientists in fact, have discovered a corner of the brain which is concerned with religion, spirituality and other mumbo-jumbo beliefs. Again you must watch "The Big Bang Theory" on CBS. They address these kinds of superstitious topics.

There is no God. There is nothing called a soul. It's just a complex brain which produces these illusions. I believe spirituality is hokey. Neuroscientists have identified corners of the human brain which produce those delusions.

The Ancient Jews did not have any successful neuroscientists and anthropologists amid their surroundings. That is why they created all that mumbo-jumbo which has been passed down the ages.

It is a well-known fact that our perception is defective. The Bible that you disregard tells us this in a explicit manner:

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion , that they should believe a lie:

In this way, even God deceives unbelievers. You ask for scientific evidence. We are well aware of the molecular clock, how the cladistics derived from the fossil record fit very well the phylogenetic comparisons of DNA. We can use the GenBank and related programs to construct cladistic trees. We have read the papers by Grant & Grant about the variation of beak sizes in Darwin's finches and know about the experimentation with the number of digits of Tiktaalik. We have been shown the drawings of the articular and angular bones into the ossicles of the middle ear.

If we had only that we'd have to agree with you. Scientific evidence is unequivocal. it supports evolution. If there were nothing else it would reign supreme. But we do have something else - the Bible. It allows us to inspect the scientific evidence material critically and select the data that support the Magnificent Narrative of God. That is why we know how the fossils were buried under Noah's Flood, how God discussed living dinosaurs with Job (Job 40:15). The rest of the material is just delusional (2 Thessalonians 2:11). This is a Christian site. Our Faith is not based on scientific evidence. it is based on the personal transformation in Jesus Christ. I'll disregard your ad ridiculum ("mumbo-jumbo") for now. It's so hard to avoid fallacies, isn't it?

Thanks. But these are my beliefs. I welcome you to dispute them with scientific evidence.

As we can see here, atheism is a belief. I always find it interesting how the common atheist neglects the scientific method and "believes" something. The most fundamental basics of science tell us that you should not believe but go for the best inference based on statistical evidence. It is not a question of Faith® but of probabilities. In science, you cannot prove an absolute negative ("There is no God. There is nothing called a soul.") and science doesn't even attempt to do that. This is not about scientific evidence, is it? it is about your need to educate yourself about the differences between religion and science and about the basics of these two disciplines.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Evilutionist Clive]

Re: Are you guys for real?

In this way, even God deceives unbelievers. You ask for scientific evidence. We are well aware of the molecular clock, how the cladistics derived from the fossil record fit very well the phylogenetic comparisons of DNA. We can use the GenBank and related programs to construct cladistic trees. We have read the papers by Grant & Grant about the variation of beak sized in Darwin's finches and know about the experimentation with the number of digints of Tiktaalik. We have been shown the drawings of the articular and angular bones into the ossicles of the middle ear.

Well, you seem to be a bright bulb amidst all these popped fuses. You do know your evolution studies better than me. Respects.


I admire your intellectual prowess. Too bad that you've been brainwashed by Christian fundies.


Still I would have bought you a beer though.


I know how you feel trapped inside. If you want to escape from Christian fundies, I might be able to help you.


Your choice.

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: Are you guys for real?

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Well, you seem to be a bright bulb amidst all these popped fuses. You do know your evolution studies better than me. Respects.


I admire your intellectual prowess. Too bad that you've been brainwashed by Christian fundies.


Still I would have bought you a beer though.


I know how you feel trapped inside. If you want to escape from Christian fundies, I might be able to help you.


Your choice.

See here, young man. Would you go into a church in real Life and try to squire people out of their faith or does the anonymity of the Inter Nets give you extra courage to ride roughshod over their most cherished beliefs?

Evolution cannot possibly work. If dna is a code there must be a code writer. Or are you saying that pictures can procreate?

Your a priori assumption that ToE is true, rather than an unfalsifiable hypothesis puts you at a disadvantage here, you lack the ability to look beyond the dogma of the day. You really should be more open minded and close your mind to evolution: it is responsible for Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Obama.

YIC

[Evilutionist Clive]

Re: Are you guys for real?

See here, young man. Would you go into a church in real Life ...

Please, I'd rather have a root canal operation, or even a colonoscopy than go into a real church. However I'd definitely volunteer to help out individuals who want to escape from all you fundies.

I welcome you to come to my atheist congregation and try convert my friends. Or even better, me. Right here. Give it a shot, seeing that you fancy yourself as a big man!

Evolution cannot possibly work. If dna is a code there must be a code writer. Or are you saying that pictures can procreate?

Science is a quest for new discoveries. You heard that one right - quest. I will admit that Science presently does not understand the source of DNA coding and replication. But just because we don't know something is not a free licence to believe in the proverbial man in the sky, i.e. what you call Jesus

Your a priori assumption that ToE is true, rather than an unfalsifiable hypothesis puts you at a disadvantage here, you lack the ability to look beyond the dogma of the day. You really should be more open minded and close your mind to evolution: it is responsible for Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Obama.

YIC

I'm willing to close my mind to Theory of evolution. Do you have anything more scientific to offer as evidence? Sorry the Bible doesn't count. That is your frame of reference. I don't believe in the "man in the sky" theory. You have to try better than that.

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: Are you guys for real?

Please, I'd rather have a root canal operation, or even a colonoscopy than go into a real church. However I'd definitely volunteer to help out individuals who want to escape from all you fundies.

I welcome you to come to my atheist congregation and try convert my friends. Or even better, me. Right here. Give it a shot, seeing that you fancy yourself as a big man!




Science is a quest for new discoveries. You heard that one right - quest. I will admit that Science presently does not understand the source of DNA coding and replication. But just because we don't know something is not a free licence to believe in the proverbial man in the sky, i.e. what you call Jesus







I'm willing to close my mind to Theory of evolution. Do you have anything more scientific to offer as evidence? Sorry the Bible doesn't count. That is your frame of reference. I don't believe in the "man in the sky" theory. You have to try better than that.

You do realise that the Bible(KJV1611) is the only repository of information about Jesus, don’t you? And that He was so important to humanity that His enemies (not just the joos, either) refuses to record anything about Him in history books out of Atheism?

So saying that the only verifiable evidence we have is a priori ruled out means that we only have individual testimony that He has in fact risen to Save us all.

So that is where this is going, is it? A ‘gotcha’ when individual experience is raised as evidence?

Typical play from the Atheistical play book: when you can’t answer the question go off topic and change the subject.

YIC

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Are you guys for real?

I'm from Aus, working as the manager (sales) for a tattoos supply company. Tell me, Cool, huh? Everyone loves it.

Hello Mr. Clyde! I am not entirely sure, why would selling tattoo supplies be cool? It's not like you are the tattoo artist who actually creates something. You just sell stuff. Which sounds pretty boring to me. But I'm glad you like what you're doing, sales people who hate their job are the worst!

You know I have been told that the whole Flyover region is really backwoods and one shouldn't even set foot there. Now don't yell at me, it's mostly my American friends living on the coast that say this sort of thing. I know better than that.

I'd really love to savour an authentic Texas BBQ.

Your ability to dismiss one stereotype and then trade it for another is quite impressive.

I know Jesus is cool but come on, you don't really

believe in that sort of nonsense, do you? I know it's on the Bible but you tell me you don't exactly share these beliefs?

You see, Mr. Clyde, believing the contents of a Holy Book is the central point of believing that a book is holy.

The scientific consensus today is that human Beings came from Apes,

Wrong. I teach about biological anthropology and if you were my student you'd get 0 points for such an answer.


Here's a helpful tip for you: if you want to seem like you know something about human evolution, try learning something about it first. Hint: you may want to read up on the common ancestor of both humans and apes.

I'm atheist. My parents were atheists and we were raised to believe only in Science.

If you were raised to believe in science, that means your parents have no idea what science is.


Hint: science is about accepting the best available evidence, not about believing something.

I am scared of churches and other buildings reeking of religion. I stay away from them.

I suppose you've never been to Europe and visited Medieval cathedrals, then. Because I cannot imagine someone wanting to stay away from their timeless beauty - even when you think about all the human suffering and oppression that went into building them.

Again you must watch "The Big Bang Theory" on CBS. They address these kinds of superstitious topics.

If a sitcom is your source of scientific information, then you have a lot in common with the members of this lovely church - as neither of you actually engages with actual scientific evidence but rather believes in something they learned from an unscientific source.

[Evilutionist Clive]

Re: Are you guys for real?

You do realise that the Bible(KJV1611) is the only repository of information about Jesus, don’t you? And that He was so important to humanity that His enemies (not just the joos, either) refuses to record anything about Him in history books out of Atheism?

So saying that the only verifiable evidence we have is a priori ruled out means that we only have individual testimony that He has in fact risen to Save us all.

So that is where this is going, is it? A ‘gotcha’ when individual experience is raised as evidence?

Typical play from the Atheistical play book: when you can’t answer the question go off topic and change the subject.

YIC

Hah hah. Your attempt at a rebuttal is very weak. You lack the courage of your convictions.There is no way one could defend the indefensible.


You lose.


There is no way you could win against someone with a scientific bent of mind.

[Evilutionist Clive]

Re: Are you guys for real?

Hello Mr. Clyde! I am not entirely sure, why would selling tattoo supplies be cool? It's not like you are the tattoo artist who actually creates something. You just sell stuff. Which sounds pretty boring to me. But I'm glad you like what you're doing, sales people who hate their job are the worst!

Hello, you seem to be a lovely lady.


You're right, I'm not the tattoo artiste so you do have a valid point.

Your ability to dismiss one stereotype and then trade it for another is quite impressive.

It wasn't a stereotype. But a genuine compliment. I regret the fact that I never had the opportunity to try authentic Texas steak.

You see, Mr. Clyde, believing the contents of a Holy Book is the central point of believing that a book is holy.

Whatever sister. I don't understand the concept of 'faith' that is why we won't agree on this question.

Wrong. I teach about biological anthropology and if you were my student you'd get 0 points for such an answer.


Here's a helpful tip for you: if you want to seem like you know something about human evolution, try learning something about it first. Hint: you may want to read up on the common ancestor of both humans and apes.

That's quite intelligent of you, thanks. I wonder how do you even manage to teach biological anthropology to schoolchildren while believing in Creationist nonsense?

If you were raised to believe in science, that means your parents have no idea what science is.


Hint: science is about accepting the best available evidence, not about believing something.

Let's not split hairs, now, shall we? I know what Science is. You want me not to use the word "believe", I'm fine with it.

I suppose you've never been to Europe and visited Medieval cathedrals, then. Because I cannot imagine someone wanting to stay away from their timeless beauty - even when you think about all the human suffering and oppression that went into building them.

I've been to Europe. But cathedrals aren't my scene really. I did visit Notre Dame and the Sistine Chape. But for historic value.


Most Europeans don't attend churches. On an average Sunday morning, it's only 3 or 4 old people sitting in the pews.

If a sitcom is your source of scientific information, then you have a lot in common with the members of this lovely church - as neither of you actually engages with actual scientific evidence but rather believes in something they learned from an unscientific source.

No, it's not my only source of information. I was thinking the people on this forum will be no more intelligent than the rubes and hicks you come across n shows like Jerry Seinfeld. Sorry couldn't resist.


But you and Dr. White have proved me wrong. That still doesn't answer my question - what the heck are you even doing among these Religious nutcases? You know better than that.

Each one for their own, I suppose. But still.

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: Are you guys for real?

Hah hah. Your attempt at a rebuttal is very weak. You lack the courage of your convictions.There is no way one could defend the indefensible.


You lose.


There is no way you could win against someone with a scientific bent of mind.

You do know the academic demands of a PhD, don’t you?

What are you academic qualifications to so brazenly ride roughshod over our most cherished beliefs?

You have yet to post anything other than ‘you guys are wrong because I don’t know any Christians’ and state a few logical fallacies.

YIC

[Evilutionist Clive]

Re: Are you guys for real?

You do know the academic demands of a PhD, don’t you?

Sorry, a PhD in Theology and Religiosity Studies does not really count.


It's like saying that I have a post-doctoral degree in Klingon studies.


If you're a real world PhD in a serious discipline, then again, I feel pity for you that you believe in all this Creationist nonsense.