[OneFailure]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:16-17
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Proverbs 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Stop coughing out verses like a computer I know them all and I have already refuted the infant damnation theory.


Funny your quoting scripture from a CHRISTIAN bible yet your defending a calvanist belief which has no biblical basis.


John 3:5 does not apply to infants whove died before a baptism Ive already been over this they do not have the capacity to sin


Also please dont go their with Deutronony 4:2 it's not cute or clever. The old testament was written way before the new testament and its obvious the new testament did a way with a few things.


James 2:10 is really reaching there. Babies are not guilty of anything!


You dont have an argument anymore if you really cant refute my argument anymore than you have tried. Nice going though.


I give your argument a rating of 5/10 refuted and proven false


Have a nice day

[Basilissa]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

God does not send babies to hell! There are no such things as wicked babies because they dont have the capacity to be wicked. Also how in the world can babies speak lies when they first open their mouths their speech patterns dont develop till a bit later into their childhood also how can they speak lies when they havent heard any before. Science explains this and even Christian's believe this.

They dont commit evil earlier either as they HAVENT BEEN SHOWN EVI! That's a fallacy and falsehood which should never be spoken again. They dont have the capacity to be evil.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Now stop being like a calvinist. Babies are sinless. Your belief in infant damnation and defense of it is pathetic.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I would love to see you debate a televangelist who believes in the heaven bound infant belief. I wonder if you would really repeat this talking point to them.

I've already shown you scripture disproving of infant damnation and you still wont open your eyes. When will you learn that when you are speaking of this belief you are making yourself look bad among baptists who Dont believe in infant damnation.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Also John 9:41 was written way after Psalm 58:3. The new testament has in some areas done away with old testament precedent with the birth death and resurrection of Yeshua! So just like most christoans don't have to do alter offerings anymore then that also means that the that scripture doesnt apply anymore!

Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:16-17
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Stop listening to calvanist fallacies it's really starting to grate on my nerves

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Proverbs 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[OneFailure]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

I really don't care if it is held by less than 90% of baptists. I only care about what the Bible says.

If this is true, then please do explain to me, why spreading the Gospel has been a pivotal part of Christianity for two millennia?

Following your logic, it would have been better to leave all of the infidels alone, since they will not be punished by God for not knowing His law.

If this is your position, I do hope you never gave a single cent for any Christian mission. That would be wasting money, according to you.

Ahhh... but wait... this is NOT what the Bible says, is it?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now, if you could only find a Bible verse that says that John 3:18 does not apply to aborted fetuses and little babies who died in their infancy! Oh, right: there aren't any!

Where is the Bible citation for this claim?

The Bible says you are wrong:

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Yes, there are wicked babies. (If you don't trust the Bible, trust me - I've met a few). They speak lies as soon as they can talk, and they commit evil even earlier.

Please do point out to me, where does it say that the word "innocent" refers to infants? 2 Kings 21:1-18 describes everything that Manasseh did, and the verse you cite is usually understood as Manasseh killing the prophets who came to rebuke him (2 Kings 21:10-15).

Please do. I applaud the fact that you at least tried to use the Bible. That is good and the more you read the Bible the more you'll understand that God sends little babies to Hell.

God does not send babies to hell! There are no such things as wicked babies because they dont have the capacity to be wicked. Also how in the world can babies speak lies when they first open their mouths their speech patterns dont develop till a bit later into their childhood also how can they speak lies when they havent heard any before. Science explains this and even Christian's believe this.


They dont commit evil earlier either as they HAVENT BEEN SHOWN EVI! That's a fallacy and falsehood which should never be spoken again. They dont have the capacity to be evil.


Now stop being like a calvinist. Babies are sinless. Your belief in infant damnation and defense of it is pathetic.


I would love to see you debate a televangelist who believes in the heaven bound infant belief. I wonder if you would really repeat this talking point to them.


I've already shown you scripture disproving of infant damnation and you still wont open your eyes. When will you learn that when you are speaking of this belief you are making yourself look bad among baptists who Dont believe in infant damnation.


Also John 9:41 was written way after Psalm 58:3. The new testament has in some areas done away with old testament precedent with the birth death and resurrection of Yeshua! So just like most christoans don't have to do alter offerings anymore then that also means that the that scripture doesnt apply anymore!


Stop listening to calvanist fallacies it's really starting to grate on my nerves

[Basilissa]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

Infant damnation is a false belief that's not even held by 90% percent of baptists or evangelicals.

I really don't care if it is held by less than 90% of baptists. I only care about what the Bible says.

Calvinist belief of infant damnation ignores the fact that infants and children are innocent because THEY DONT UNDERSTAND THE LAW

If this is true, then please do explain to me, why spreading the Gospel has been a pivotal part of Christianity for two millennia?

Following your logic, it would have been better to leave all of the infidels alone, since they will not be punished by God for not knowing His law.

If this is your position, I do hope you never gave a single cent for any Christian mission. That would be wasting money, according to you.

Ahhh... but wait... this is NOT what the Bible says, is it?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now, if you could only find a Bible verse that says that John 3:18 does not apply to aborted fetuses and little babies who died in their infancy! Oh, right: there aren't any!

Infants and children are in the process of growth, mentally and spiritually. Nothing in them is fully developed including their minds which holder the law of conscience. A child's and infants understanding is limited so that if they sin it is not counted against them.

Where is the Bible citation for this claim?

"If ye were blind, ye should have no sin - John:941

Infants are therefore morally innocent this is because they do not know from right or wrong.
They have no knowledge of good and evil and do not yet know how to commit good or evil.

The Bible says you are wrong:

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Yes, there are wicked babies. (If you don't trust the Bible, trust me - I've met a few). They speak lies as soon as they can talk, and they commit evil even earlier.

When King Mannesseh sacrificed children it says that he shed innocent blood (2 Kings 24:4) Clearly God views infants as morally innocent.

Please do point out to me, where does it say that the word "innocent" refers to infants? 2 Kings 21:1-18 describes everything that Manasseh did, and the verse you cite is usually understood as Manasseh killing the prophets who came to rebuke him (2 Kings 21:10-15).

I could go on and on and on

Please do. I applaud the fact that you at least tried to use the Bible. That is good and the more you read the Bible the more you'll understand that God sends little babies to Hell.

[OneFailure]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

Please explain, then, why do you think that the Bible doesn't say the stuff it says? Is the Bible wrong? I'm talking about the specific passages I've quoted. I am including some of them at the end of this post for your convenience.
I don't care about Calvinism. Honestly, I don't know much about it, aside from the predestination thing, and I really don't care enough to even look it up on Wikipedia.

Will you stop babbling about Calvinism, and start paying attention to what the Bible says?

Will larger font help?

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Well for not caring about calvinism you certainly are defending one if their held beliefs. Infant damnation is a false belief that's not even held by 90% percent of baptists or evangelicals.


Calvinist belief of infant damnation ignores the fact that infants and children are innocent because THEY DONT UNDERSTAND THE LAW


Infants and children are in the process of growth, mentally and spiritually. Nothing in them is fully developed including their minds which holder the law of conscience. A child's and infants understanding is limited so that if they sin it is not counted against them.


God does not send innocent people to hell. Children and infants are innocent because they dont understand the law.


"If ye were blind, ye should have no sin - John:941


Infants are therefore morally innocent this is because they do not know from right or wrong.
They have no knowledge of good and evil and do not yet know how to commit good or evil.


Since infants are without moral knowledge moral obligation moral choices and without moral character they are exempt from gods wrath Only those with developed minds can be made guilty of sin.


When King Mannesseh sacrificed children it says that he shed innocent blood (2 Kings 24:4) Clearly God views infants as morally innocent.


I could go on and on and on

[Basilissa]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

Even if he dies punish some children that still doesnt support the standing for infant damnation

Please explain, then, why do you think that the Bible doesn't say the stuff it says? Is the Bible wrong? I'm talking about the specific passages I've quoted. I am including some of them at the end of this post for your convenience.

I'm not arguing against the bible I'm arguing against a calvanist belief which stands on a misunderstanding of certain scriptures.
Theirs several other things besides the infant damnation belief that are wrong with calvanism

I don't care about Calvinism. Honestly, I don't know much about it, aside from the predestination thing, and I really don't care enough to even look it up on Wikipedia.

Will you stop babbling about Calvinism, and start paying attention to what the Bible says?

Will larger font help?

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[OneFailure]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

The Bible teaches us that this is not always true. Sometimes God punishes children for the sins of their parents:

Leviticus 26:21-22
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

In cases of unbelievers, God punishes children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren of sinners:

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

It's even worse for the descendants of bastards - God hates them for ten generations:

Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

This is not what the Bible says. As far as I know, all Christian denominations accept the fact that all people are born with the original sin. Otherwise, there would be no need to be baptized!

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Stop arguing against the Holy Bible! Why do you hate God????
Why are you calling the Bible stupid?

I'm not arguing against the bible I'm arguing against a calvanist belief which stands on a misunderstanding of certain scriptures.
Theirs several other things besides the infant damnation belief that are wrong with calvanism

[OneFailure]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

The Bible teaches us that this is not always true. Sometimes God punishes children for the sins of their parents:

Leviticus 26:21-22
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

In cases of unbelievers, God punishes children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren of sinners:

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

It's even worse for the descendants of bastards - God hates them for ten generations:

Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

This is not what the Bible says. As far as I know, all Christian denominations accept the fact that all people are born with the original sin. Otherwise, there would be no need to be baptized!

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Stop arguing against the Holy Bible! Why do you hate God????
Why are you calling the Bible stupid?

Even if he dies punish some children that still doesnt support the standing for infant damnation


I'm not calling the bible stupid I'm calling the belief stupid because it is stupid

[Basilissa]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

Ezekiel 18:20 says The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son

The Bible teaches us that this is not always true. Sometimes God punishes children for the sins of their parents:

Leviticus 26:21-22
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

In cases of unbelievers, God punishes children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren of sinners:

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

It's even worse for the descendants of bastards - God hates them for ten generations:

Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Children are Innocent.

This is not what the Bible says. As far as I know, all Christian denominations accept the fact that all people are born with the original sin. Otherwise, there would be no need to be baptized!

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Stop defending a calvanist belief.

Stop arguing against the Holy Bible! Why do you hate God????

Infant damnation is such a stupid belief that most Christian's dont even believe un it

Why are you calling the Bible stupid?

[OneFailure]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

Where does that say in the Holy Bible?

Ezekiel 18:20 says The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son


Children are Innocent. Stop defending a calvanist belief. Infant damnation is such a stupid belief that most Christian's dont even believe un it

[Basilissa]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

I've already repeated this and I'll say this for the last time babies are forgiven of original sin.

Where does that say in the Holy Bible?

[OneFailure]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

Not according to God. The original sin, remember?

I've already repeated this and I'll say this for the last time babies are forgiven of original sin. Calvanists are sick for believing the lie of infant damnation

[Basilissa]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

UNBABPTIZED BABIES ARE INNOCENT

Not according to God. The original sin, remember?

[OneFailure]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

I haven't seen you addressing Scripture I have cited.

The only talking points I take are directly from the Bible. You can keep calling me names, that doesn't bother me. In fact, I feel blessed by your persecution.

Luke 6:22 - Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

So is the Bible lying in the verses I cited?

UNBABPTIZED BABIES ARE INNOCENT

[OneFailure]

Re: It's not me torturing you, it's my inability to make a valid argument

Please stop changing the subject. I'm still waiting for your reply to my last post:

I already replied to that one