[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Intro

For sure, I don’t believe I took this verse out of context. Jesus left us the Holy Spirit to guide us and teach us. Although it does not say He helps us interpret scripture, it does say that the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

Not quite, dear. The LORD guarantees the True Christian™ will have an accurate understanding of Scripture. That's where you keep tripping up. You think that your belief in and love of Jesus is enough, but you continue to ignore the Scriptures that assert a very clear and present condition for being a True Christian™.

It's not enough to believe in Him. Even the demons do. It's not enough even to love Him. A devout Muslim shares your affection. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO FEEL YOUR FEELINGS.

One who allows the Holy Bible to speak for Itself cannot fail to notice the glaring IF/THEN statements prevalent throughout the Gospel (Ecclesiastes 12:13; John 14:21; Exodus 19:5; John 15:5; Revelation 14:12; John 15:14; Luke 11:28; 1 Peter 1:14; James 1:25; Romans 2:7-8; Joshua 5:6; Ephesians 6:1-3; John 14:15; John 15:10; 1 John 2:3; 1 John 2:4-5; Deuteronomy 5:9; Numbers 14:18, etc.). In fact, the entire 28th chapter of the Book of Deuteronomy contains in the first half the promises of blessings the LORD will bestow on those who are loyal unto Him, and the second half the curses that will come raining down on those who are not.

IF/THEN statements are very clear, dear. IF you eat your sweets before mealtime, THEN you will ruin your appetite and develop poor eating habits. IF you drive recklessly, THEN you run a greater risk of getting a ticket or into an accident. IF you engage in homosex, THEN you will go to Hell (which your agreement with only marks you as a homophobe since you cherry pick these verses and not others simply because they validate some deep-seated feeling of disgust for you, which is shameful if you ask me). IF you love Jesus, THEN you will follow His commandments. IF you follow His commandments, THEN He will live in your heart and guide you. The corollary is very, very clear: IF you don't, THEN He won't. Clear as day. All the Scripture you have provided fits within this condition, and you cannot show that it does not.

[James Hutchins]

Re: Intro

For sure, I don’t believe I took this verse out of context. Jesus left us the Holy Spirit to guide us and teach us. Although it does not say He helps us interpret scripture, it does say that the Holy Spirit is our teacher. We don’t know everything and I think it is impossible to full understand the Bible without God’s help. It’s like the trinity. Although it doesn’t specifically mention the word trinity, we can see evidence of the trinity throughout scripture. But some people interpret the verses incorrectly and come to different conclusions. Or some of the Psalms are full of poetry and this when studying the Psalms we need to treat it like poetry.

It sounds to me like you (as the kids like to say) 'wing it'. Christianity is no joke friend. It is not something you can just make up on a whim. Imagine if God woke one day and thought 'Hmmm, I think I'll make everything' and did so with no plan. Everything would be willy-nilly. No, God had it all thought out in advance and worked according to His Grand Scheme.
Think about it. Does God explain everything to you? Why even make the Holy Bible if He is just going to explain it all to you because you refuse to read the Book he spent years transcribing to His Prophets.

[Xanax]

Re: Intro

Not quite, dear. The LORD guarantees the True Christian™ will have an accurate understanding of Scripture. That's where you keep tripping up. You think that your belief in and love of Jesus is enough, but you continue to ignore the Scriptures that assert a very clear and present condition for being a True Christian™.

It's not enough to believe in Him. Even the demons do. It's not enough even to love Him. A devout Muslim shares your affection. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO FEEL YOUR FEELINGS.

IF you engage in homosex, THEN you will go to Hell (which your agreement with only marks you as a homophobe since you cherry pick these verses and not others simply because they validate some deep-seated feeling of disgust for you, which is shameful if you ask me). IF you love Jesus, THEN you will follow His commandments. IF you follow His commandments, THEN He will live in your heart and guide you.

I am sorry, but I disagree. We CANNOT earn salvation, for it is a gift from God. Knowledge of scripture does not save and it will certainly not take us to heaven. We are saved only by accepting His free gift of Salvation. A thirst for the Word of God and a desire to know God at a personal level is evidence of Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 11:6 - But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Romans 3:20 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 2:21 - "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

We are only saved through faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross and His glorious resurrection as a payment for our sins. NOTHING else! We cannot earn our way to God, because that is impossible, there is nothing we can do alone. This is the heart of Christianity. That is why we need Jesus to forgive our sins. So yes I do believe that my love and faith in Jesus, and my salvation is enough, because that is what the Bible says. That does not mean I can do whatever I want, because if I truly repent from my sins and accept Jesus Christ as my Savour, then my life will reflect it. I will want to read His Word and keep His commandments.

On a side note:

You also mentioned this in your post, "IF you engage in homosex, THEN you will go to Hell (which your agreement with only marks you as a homophobe since you cherry pick these verses and not others simply because they validate some deep-seated feeling of disgust for you, which is shameful if you ask me)."

I don't really understand what you were trying to say in this particular point. I follow the Bible and the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. Why is my belief shameful for you?

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Intro

I am sorry, but I disagree. We CANNOT earn salvation, for it is a gift from God.

To whom do you think God gives this gift? What do you think Jesus means when He says IF one bears no fruit THEN God will cut him off (John 15:2), or that IF one loves Jesus THEN they would obey Him (John 14:15) or IF one loves Jesus only THEN he will be loved in return (John 14:21)? What do you think is the reality for those who don't love Him/obey Him? Why do you think He makes this point again and again if He loves everyone simply because they want to get to know Him? In your OP you said Jesus could save us from our sin but you do not accept we can live without Sin. What, in your opinion, does Jesus save us from?

A thirst for the Word of God and a desire to know God at a personal level is evidence of Salvation.

This describes Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and just about any religious belief you want to throw in there. Is Salvation universal? If so, what role does faith play?

That does not mean I can do whatever I want, because if I truly repent from my sins and accept Jesus Christ as my Savour, then my life will reflect it.

So you agree that a life that reflects Salvation includes not sinning, or did the Holy Bible get it wrong (1st John 3:6-9)?

You also mentioned this in your post, "IF you engage in homosex, THEN you will go to Hell (which your agreement with only marks you as a homophobe since you cherry pick these verses and not others simply because they validate some deep-seated feeling of disgust for you, which is shameful if you ask me)."

I don't really understand what you were trying to say in this particular point. I follow the Bible and the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. Why is my belief shameful for you?

You said,

I believe that Jesus died on the cross for everyone and whoever believes in Him is saved.

And also,

You are 100% right, homosexuality is wrong!!!! And the Bible says it is wrong.

Why do you choose to consider Scripture against homosexuality to be read literally but not Scripture warning against lack of obedience? The only reason would be because you find homosexuality icky but lack of obedience natural. It identifies you as someone who is simply grossed out by homosexual behavior, desiring to stop people from living out their best life as you get to enjoy doing. Also, too lazy to bother with real obedience.

Your interpretation of the Holy Word of God says more about you than anything you accuse us of. It's like a literary Rorschach Test and you're sharing with the world your thoughts. Very interesting, dear.

[Xanax]

Re: Intro

This describes Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and just about any religious belief you want to throw in there. Is Salvation universal? If so, what role does faith play?



So you agree that a life that reflects Salvation includes not sinning, or did the Holy Bible get it wrong (1st John 3:6-9)?

When did I ever say that we are suppose to ignore obeying the Bible. If we are truly saved, we will obey God’s Holy Word. That does mean we will never sin. We are still human, but the Holy Spirit will convict us and help us back to the right path.

Do you believe homosexuality I’d ok, because it is not. God says it is wrong in the Bible, just like lying, cheating and stealing. But God can forgive us of our sins if we ask Him and accept His gift of Salvation and turn from our sin.

Do you belive we can earn our Salvation? The Bible clearly says we cannot, all we need to is ask Jesus to save is from our sin and give Him control of our life. Please don’t pick and choose what you want from the Bible, or fit the Bible into your own preconceptions. This is why we need the Holy Spirits guidance when studying scripture.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Intro

Do you believe homosexuality I’d ok, because it is not. God says it is wrong in the Bible, just like lying, cheating and stealing. But God can forgive us of our sins if we ask Him and accept His gift of Salvation and turn from our sin.

Dear Sinner, I can assure you that our church does not accept homosexuality, because the KJV Bible tells us so. However, as you are proficient in the original languages, I'd like to ask why you thought the "God can hate" verses were translated poorly, while you accept the translations about homosexuality as unambiguous.

In fact, the "hate" is much more easily translated in both Hebrew and Greek than the verses about homosexuality. For instance, Malachi 1:3 goes as we well know, in Hebrew as follows:
וְאֶת־עֵשָׂ֖ו שָׂנֵ֑אתִי וָאָשִׂ֤ים אֶת־הָרָיו֙ שְׁמָמָ֔ה וְאֶת־נַחֲלָתֹ֖ו לְתַנֹּ֥ות מִדְבָּֽר׃

שָׂנֵ֑אתִי: it is the qal perfect, 1st person singular, one of the least ambiguous forms of Hebrew. It comes from the root שָׂנֵא, a root that even the notoriously liberal Strong's concordance refuses to translate as "loves less" or "is less privileged" but only gives the alternatives "detest (1), enemy (3), enmity (1), foes (1), hate (78), hated (28), hated her intensely (1), hates (19), hating (2), hatred (1), turned against (1), turns against (2), unloved (7)." Romans 9:13 obviously cites Malachi here, hence μισέω is also easy to translate as "hate". You still haven't answered why you don't find this translation plausible.

Now, in contrast, the verses about homosexuality are indeed most obscure if we discard the KJV (which we won't do but I'm humoring you here). There are only a few verses.

1 Corinthians 6:9
ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι Θεοῦ βασιλείαν οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται

μαλακοὶ [malakoì]: What does it mean? We don't really know. It is more or less equivalent to "squishy", and Matthew uses it to describe the too showy clothes of a king. Does it mean effeminate? We don't really know. It could as well mean show-offs. Or something. However, μαλακοὶ is easy.

ἀρσενοκοῖται [arsenokoîtai]: Now we're in murky waters. It's basically an innovation, a compound word by Paul. It doesn't occur almost anywhere else in other Greek literature. If we look at the word, it is a compound of man+bed. BUT Paul did have a more readily available word for a homosexual available, ανδροκοιτες, that would have been easily defined as "having sexual intercourse with a man". He did not use it and boy or boy we're in trouble now... The later Vulgate thought it meant masculorum concubitoribus, which means something, but we can't be 100% or even 50% sure what. It could have meant a pimp. Or a male prostitute. Luther, the one with the poorly disguised Catholic spin-off translated is as Knabenschänder or "violator of boys", kiddie sex. Did these translators know their Hebrew and Greek worse than you? No-one really knows: We can only trust (and we do) that the KJV translators received their text from the Holy Spirit. It they didn't then we can have erred grievously by making these people suffer based on the Bible that we don't understand. So it's better that we trust the KJV. But you don't trust it. You require proof from the original language, so let's go on.

Romans 1:26-30? This is probably (if we trust exegetics) Paul attacking worshipers of Cybele who engaged in unnatural acts. Do you trust those people? They know the Greek culture, religion and language inside out? Do you trust them when they tell you "hate is not hate"? Do you trust these same people if they tell you "we don't know if these verses mean homosexuals"? Do you?

OT: Leviticus 20:13
וְאִ֗ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֨ר יִשְׁכַּ֤ב אֶת־זָכָר֙ מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י אִשָּׁ֔ה תֹּועֵבָ֥ה עָשׂ֖וּ שְׁנֵיהֶ֑ם מֹ֥ות יוּמָ֖תוּ דְּמֵיהֶ֥ם בָּֽם׃
יִשְׁכַּ֤ב, Qal imperfect, 3rd person masculine. What does this verb mean? We don't really know. Too many alternatives to be sure what is means right here... There are multiple discordant translations, unlike "hate". Let us see. Once again, Strong's concordance.

שָׁכַב = lie down but also "actually lies (1), has (1), laid (6), laid low (1), lain (3), lain down (2), lay (22), lay down (15), lie (26), lie down (31), lie still (1), lies (25), lies down (10), lodged (1), lying (7), lying down (4), make your bed (1), recline (1), rest (4), rested (1), sleep (4), sleeps (1), slept (37), take...rest (1), taking (1), tip (1)."

Thus, if we give these people the benefit of doubt, we have really no idea (based on the Hebrew and Greek Bibles) what we should think about their private lives.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

This could be equally well translated as "If a man takes rest and makes a bed with another man and they have (actual) sleep together similar to he would do with (his wife) a woman, ..."

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

This could, again based on Greek be equally well translated as "Don't you know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived: not sexoholics, not those who worship other gods, not marriage-breakers, nor those who dress too fancy, nor those who are pimps/rape children/have anal sex with their wives".

When we discussed the "God hates" verses you were convinced that the original languages would gave you an escape. You did not offer us a detailed explanation why your translations would be better than the KJV. I did give you an explanation that you dismissed. Now that you're condemning homosexuality as an unambiguous Biblical fact, you're dismissing the linguistic evidence that does not give us a clear answer, not even good probabilities. This is called the fallacy of special pleading. You change the criteria based on your preferences. With "hate" you accept eagerly the linguistic possibility of hate not being hate; with homosexuality you use a different set of criteria and eagerly disregard the actual, major problems in translation, in both NT and OT.

We don't do that. We follow the KJV.

In short:

1. Why do you accept obscurities of translation as factual when it comes to "God hating"?
2. Why do you dismiss the more problematic obscurities of translation when it comes to your condemning homosexuality?
3. Are you really saying that the Holy Spirit tells you which one to choose? Are you in this case more special than those who did the actual translations?
4. What are the criteria that you use when choosing to trust the linguistics or not? Are your criteria consistent? If not, why should we accept your conclusions as valid?

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Xanax]

Re: Intro

I never said that God does not send people to hell. All that you say is true. My point is how can you say that God hates certain people when there are so many verses that say otherwise. Did Jesus die for certain people and not for the whole world. No Jesus died for every sinner no matter who they are. All we have to do is repent and trust in Him. Even someone who practices homosexuality can enter heaven if they repent of their sin and accept the gift of Salvation. If God hates people why would He make a way for all to come to Him as He wants none to perish in hell.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Intro

I never said that God does not send people to hell. All that you say is true. My point is how can you say that God hates certain people when there are so many verses that say otherwise. Did Jesus die for certain people and not for the whole world. No Jesus died for every sinner no matter who they are. All we have to do is repent and trust in Him. Even someone who practices homosexuality can enter heaven if they repent of their sin and accept the gift of Salvation. If God hates people why would He make a way for all to come to Him as He wants none to perish in hell.

God has Created some people, whose only purpose is to be evil and be sent down to Hell.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Incidentally, you did not answer if you accept the ambiguities of the original Greek (and Hebrew) when it comes to the Bible's position about homosexuality; if you accept the ambiguities of ancient Greek regarding the word for "hate"; and how this affects your position about these people; and why we should follow your lead if you're inconsistent. Nor the other specific questions I posed. Thank you in advance for you future consideration.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Intro

My point is how can you say that God hates certain people

Easy, by READING THE HOLY BIBLE!

God HATES:

• Liars (Proverbs 6:16-19)
• People from Gilgal (Hosea 9:15)
• Everyone that offends God, this includes YOU (Matthew 13:41-42)
• Muslims and Hillary Clinton (Deuteronomy 12:31)

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Intro

That does mean we will never sin. We are still human, but the Holy Spirit will convict us and help us back to the right path.

These two sentences conflict with each other.

Do you believe homosexuality I’d ok, because it is not. God says it is wrong in the Bible, just like lying, cheating and stealing. But God can forgive us of our sins if we ask Him and accept His gift of Salvation and turn from our sin.

You're still not thinking this through, and I suspect it is because you are comforted by this false theology of yours that suggests Jesus loves everyone and everyone who loves Jesus back can go to Heaven. However, it doesn't solve the problem of the Sodomite because the Sodomite doesn't wish to repent. He wishes instead to engage in more Sodomy. In this theology of yours, will Jesus still damn the unrepentant Sodomite who genuinely loves Him?

This whole problem raises a very important theological question: Does Jesus send the people He loves to suffer an eternity in Hell? If so, does that make Him a Loving God, or a Monster? Good grief Zaranith, I love my children and would and do discipline the Fear of God right into them, but I wouldn't subject them to torture. I wouldn't skin them alive and drop their still living bodies in a vat of flaming brimstone to punish them, and I sure as hell wouldn't do that to them for eternity. That would break my heart and ruin me emotionally and mentally for the rest of my life, and I'm a mere human. I couldn't do that to someone I love. Could you?

Do you belive we can earn our Salvation? The Bible clearly says we cannot, all we need to is ask Jesus to save is from our sin and give Him control of our life.

Ah, but that part about giving Him control of our life is the catch, is it not? That's the very issue that inspires you to determine which parts of Scripture are to be taken seriously. That dear, is what makes you a hypocrite.

Please don’t pick and choose what you want from the Bible, or fit the Bible into your own preconceptions. This is why we need the Holy Spirits guidance when studying scripture.

Now you're simply telling me what we've been telling you. You've also conveniently ignored my questions about the IF/THEN statements. Again.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Intro

I never said that God does not send people to hell. All that you say is true. My point is how can you say that God hates certain people when there are so many verses that say otherwise. Did Jesus die for certain people and not for the whole world. No Jesus died for every sinner no matter who they are. All we have to do is repent and trust in Him. Even someone who practices homosexuality can enter heaven if they repent of their sin and accept the gift of Salvation. If God hates people why would He make a way for all to come to Him as He wants none to perish in hell.

You're terribly ignorant about what the Bible says and very pushy about what you want It to say. Pastor Zeke explains it in one of his most passionate sermons here: Jesus Did NOT Die For Everyone's Sins!

[Xanax]

Re: Intro

You're terribly ignorant about what the Bible says and very pushy about what you want It to say. Pastor Zeke explains it in one of his most passionate sermons here: Jesus Did NOT Die For Everyone's Sins!

My beliefs on Salvation are based on the Bible. You have completely ignored the verses I provided on how God loved us. The Bible makes it very clear. If you read my posts earlier you would know that I said we still have to confess our sins to God and admit that we need Him because of our sin. If that is not how one becomes a Christian, could you please explain to me how to become a Christian. Is it based on our works?

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: Intro

My beliefs on Salvation are based on the Bible. You have completely ignored the verses I provided on how God loved us. The Bible makes it very clear. If you read my posts earlier you would know that I said we still have to confess our sins to God and admit that we need Him because of our sin. If that is not how one becomes a Christian, could you please explain to me how to become a Christian. Is it based on our works?

No, it is based on faith. And faith alone. Which means True Faith. Most Christians, like you, act like the parents when they tell their children "Yes, yes, I am watching you". The children wants attention and the parents fake the attention.


You are the same. "Yes, yes, I believe in you Jesus Christ". Of course, not enough to believe that following His commands is important, no. Just enough to cherry pick some Bible verses and be happy about it.


If you offend one tiny bit of the Bible, you have offended it all:


James 2:10 “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”



So, beating your child with the rod is important. Not wearing mixed fabric is important.


Am I saying that works matter? Of course not. I am not saying that if you beat your child to unconciousness you will be in Heaven after you die. No. You need to believe in Jesus, and His words, and His Father's words.


So if God says in the Bible that beating a child is good, then you go and beat your children. Otherwise, you do not really believe in God, you are just faking it because you are afraid to die and go to Hell. Guess what: you cannot trick God.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Intro

If you read my posts earlier....

I've read every single one of your confused, stubborn, theologically messy posts. When you said, "That does mean we will never sin," you just wanted this to be true despite the philosophical conundrum it creates being so vast in scope your very next sentiment disagrees with it.

You wish you could be sin free because you wish the Bible to be trustworthy, but you wish you didn't have to face the fact that you sin every day and do things that work against your own best intentions despite your sincere faith. You wish Jesus would only toss people who hate Him into the Lake of Fire because you wish everyone who wants to be Saved will be. Your theology is based on wishful thinking, dear.

Your mental gymnastics may have given you comfort since you were five, but you're seeing what happens when this theology is presented to Bible Believing Christians who are not a part of your echo chamber.

[Xanax]

Re: Intro

I've read every single one of your confused, stubborn, theologically messy posts. When you said, "That does mean we will never sin," you just wanted this to be true despite the philosophical conundrum it creates being so vast in scope your very next sentiment disagrees with it.

You wish you could be sin free because you wish the Bible to be trustworthy, but you wish you didn't have to face the fact that you sin every day and do things that work against your own best intentions despite your sincere faith. You wish Jesus would only toss people who hate Him into the Lake of Fire because you wish everyone who wants to be Saved will be. Your theology is based on wishful thinking, dear.

Your mental gymnastics may have given you comfort since you were five, but you're seeing what happens when this theology is presented to Bible Believing Christians who are not a part of your echo chamber.

Could you please tell me how one is saved and how one becomes a Christian.