[James Peter]

Re: introduction

Below are the thoughts of a Catholic Christian:

(council of Florence in the 8th session ):
"But in case of necessity not only a priest or a deacon, but even a lay man or a woman, even a pagan and a heretic, can baptize provided he or she uses the form of the church and intends to do what the church does. The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God. "

You have not proven to have had a special case of necessity, and you should read the rest of the paragraph. If you sin after baptism (and we all do) you won't go to heaven. The only way to get cleared is to receive absolution from a priest through confession, or perhaps a plenary indulgence for venial sins.

If you look at the Catechism you can see that it also agrees that all baptized are connected to the church.

855 The Church's mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity.357 Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects."358

You are joined to us in a sense, but you still need to enter full communion with the Mother Church.

1259

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

A catechumen is someone who is actively trying to become a full member of the Catholic Church, not a member of a "reformation" church. They go to classes to learn the catechism, attend Catholic mass every week, and are working to receiving the Sacraments.

Quote by another catholic:

The protestant radio minister raised an objection to the Catholic Church that is common. The Church has made statements to the effect that "there is no salvation outside the Church." But the teaching is not meant to imply that only those who are practicing members of the Roman Catholic Church will go to Heaven.

Instead, and I am summarizing for brevity, the Church teaches that those who are validly baptised are in fact united to the one holy catholic and apostolic Church - although imperfectly united - and, therefore, their salvation does not come from "outside" of the Church. Most protestant baptisms are considered valid in form.

A Catholic would need perfect contrition outside the Sacrament of Confession for their mortal sins to be forgiven. Imperfect contrition is not enough outside the Sacrament for the forgiveness of mortal sins. Within the Sacrament, imperfect contrition will suffice:

1453 The contrition called "imperfect" (or "attrition") is also a
gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the
consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and
the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such
a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under
the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental
absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot
obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain
forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance
CCC

Quote from His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI:

"It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."

In the new document and an accompanying commentary, which were released as the pope vacations here in Italy's Dolomite mountains, the Vatican repeated that position.

"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles."

from guidance by God, my imperfect intepretation from Scripture, the new advent encyclopedia and the thoughts of other Catholic Christians:

You know, you could get a perfect interpretation of the Scripture if you listened to a Priest;

- i've already been baptised, therefore it appears the Catholic Church would welcome me as a fellow Christian, even if i never step foot inside a Catholic Church building again.

You are a Christian, but not a full one (I assume you weren't baptized in a Catholic Church. If you were, then you can ignore the following). You are what we would call a "Candidate". To become a full member, you do have to engage in some of the following:

- Expected attendance at Mass every Sunday, and on Holy Days of Obligation, unless sick, etc.

- Abstaining from meat on certain Fridays, and fasting during certain days of the year

- Not using birth control (birth spacing for just reasons is permitted)

- Confessing mortal sins before receiving communion

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

You are a Christian, but not a full one

To become a full member, you do have to engage in some of the following:

hi !

i appreciate your advice and take care !

yes, i would like to discuss with a priest to find out more information.

(from http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...cs/ap0097.html)

"Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers mistakenly affixed to them"

This book is a personal witness, a plain account of the way in which a Protestant came to feel himself obliged in conscience to give his adherence to the Catholic Church. No sentiment of revulsion turned him from the religion fostered in him by a Protestant upbringing followed by several years in the ministry. The fact is, he has never rejected it. It was his desire to explore its depths, its full scope, that led him, step by step, to a genuinely spiritual movement stemming from the teachings of the Gospel, and Protestantism as an institution, or rather complexus of institutions, hostile to one another as well as to the Catholic Church. The study of this conflict brought him to detect the fatal error which drove the spiritual movement of Protestantism out of the one Church. He saw the necessity of returning to that Church, not in order to reject any of the positive Christian elements of his religious life, but to enable them, at last, to develop without hindrance.

The writer, who carved out his way step by step, or rather, saw it opening before his eyes, hopes now to help along those who are still where he started. In addition, he would like to show those he has rejoined how a little more understanding of the others, above all a greater fidelity to their own gift, could help their 'separated brethren' to receive it in their turn. In this hope he offers his book to all who wish to be faithful to the truth, first, to the Word of God, but also to the truth of men as they are, not as our prejudices and habits impel us to see them.

Bouyer, then, addresses both Protestants and Catholics. To the Protestants, he says, in effect, "It is fidelity to our Protestant principles, properly understood, that has led me into the Catholic Church." To the Catholics, he says, "Protestantism isn't as antithetical to the Catholic Faith as you suppose. It has positive principles, as well as negative ones. Its positive principles, properly understood, belong to the Catholic Tradition, which we Catholics can see if we approach Protestantism with a bit of understanding and openness."
Bouyer's argument is that the Reformation's main principle was essentially Catholic: "Luther's basic intuition, on which Protestantism continuously draws for its abiding vitality, so far from being hard to reconcile with Catholic tradition, or inconsistent with the teaching of the Apostles, was a return to the clearest elements of their teaching, and in the most direct line of that tradition."

1. Sola Gratia.What was the Reformation's main principle? Not, as many Catholics and even some Protestants think, "private judgment" in religion. According to Bouyer, "the true fundamental principle of Protestantism is the gratuitousness of salvation" — sola gratia. He writes, "In the view of Luther, as well as of all those faithful to his essential teaching, man without grace can, strictly speaking, do nothing of the slightest value for salvation. He can neither dispose himself for it, nor work for it in any independent fashion. Even his acceptance of grace is the work of grace. To Luther and his authentic followers, justifying faith . . . is quite certainly, the first and most fundamental grace."


Bouyer then shows how, contrary to what many Protestants and some Catholics think, salvation sola gratia is also Catholic teaching. He underscores the point to any Catholics who might think otherwise:
"If, then, any Catholic — and there would seem to be many such these days — whose first impulse is to reject the idea that man, without grace, can do nothing towards his salvation, that he cannot even accept the grace offered except by a previous grace, that the very faith which acknowledges the need of grace is a purely gratuitous gift, he would do well to attend closely to the texts we are about to quote."
In other words, "Listen up, Catholics!"
Bouyer quotes, at length, from the Second Council of Orange (529), the teaching of which was confirmed by Pope Boniface II as de fide or part of the Church's faith. The Council asserted that salvation is the work of God's grace and that even the beginning of faith or the consent to saving grace is itself the result of grace. By our natural powers, we can neither think as we ought nor choose any good pertaining to salvation. We can only do so by the illumination and impulse of the Holy Spirit.

2. Sola Fide.So much for sola gratia. But what about the other half of the Reformation principle regarding salvation, the claim that justification by grace comes through faith alone (sola fide) ?
According to Bouyer, the main thrust of the doctrine of sola fide was to affirm that justification was wholly the work of God and to deny any positive human contribution apart from grace. Faith was understood as man's grace-enabled, grace-inspired, grace-completed response to God's saving initiative in Jesus Christ. What the Reformation initially sought to affirm, says Bouyer, was that such a response is purely God's gift to man, with man contributing nothing of his own to receive salvation.

3. Sola Scriptura. Melanchthon, the colleague of Luther, called justification sola gratia, sola fide the "Material Principle" of the Reformation. But there was also the Formal Principle, the doctrine of sola Scriptura or what Bouyer calls the sovereign authority of Scripture. What of that?
Here, too, says Bouyer, the Reformation's core positive principle is correct. The Word of God, rather than a human word, must govern the life of the Christian and of the Church. And the Word of God is found in a unique and supreme form in the Bible, the inspired Word of God. The inspiration of the Bible means that God is the primary author of Scripture. Since we can say that about no other writing or formal expression of the Church's Faith, not even conciliar or papal definitions of faith, the Bible alone is the Word of God in this sense and therefore it possesses a unique authority.

Yet the supremacy of the Bible does not imply an opposition between it and the authority of the Church or Tradition, as certain negative principles adopted by the Reformers implied. Furthermore, the biblical spirituality of Protestantism, properly understood, is in keeping with the best traditions of Catholic spirituality, especially those of the Fathers and the great medieval theologians. Through Scripture, God speaks to us today, offering a living Word to guide our lives in Christ.

Bouyer says that both Protestants and Catholics have responsibilities here. Protestants must investigate their roots and consider whether the negative elements of the Reformation, such as extrinsic justification and the rejection of a definitive Church teaching authority and Tradition, are necessary to uphold the positive principles of sola gratia and the supremacy of Scripture. If not, then how is continued separation from the Catholic Church justified ?


Only if Catholics are fully Catholic — which includes fully embracing the positive principles of the Reformation that Bouyer insists are essentially Catholic — can they "legitimately aspire to show and prepare their separated brethren the way to a return which would be for them not a denial but a fulfillment."
Today, as in the sixteenth century, the burden rests with us Catholics. We must live, by God's abundant grace, up to our high calling in Christ Jesus. And in this way, show our Protestant brethren that their own positive principles are properly expressed only in the Catholic Church.

* * *

i was so shocked to read this today ... it is almost exactly how i think and essentially reflects what i wrote in my previous posts.

from my observation, the Roman Catholic Church of today safeguards the positive principles of the Reformation !

i'm from the Reformation and imperfectly united to the Catholic Church. i'll love to shake hands with Catholic Christians and proclaim the beauty of the Three Theological Values to everyone of the world.

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

The only way to get cleared is to receive absolution from a priest through confession, or perhaps a plenary indulgence for venial sins.

hi !

i've committed an enourmous ... number of sins, and i'm so confused, stupid and foolish ... it's my fault !

i've read so many horrible things, written so many horrible things and said so many horrible things. i'm an exceedingly, extremely horrible person !

and yet, "Salvation is of the LORD"
somehow i keep on remembering "God is love"
somehow i just wish to keep on repenting and turning to God.

these are my confessions:
please pass all my writings to every priest you know and tell them i acknowledge there is only one universal (Catholic) Church. but even if you don't, i'll still believe a priest will one day read them. also, in my imperfect, stupid understanding, i believe God can see my confessions... i hope all the Saints can see my confessions and pray for me.

i'm really really really sorry for all the sins i have ever done in the past, present and future !

somehow, i recognise two possibilities:

God and eternal life
or
Worldly Knowledge & Death

i believe
"Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body"
"Jesus is Lord"

i believe i'm somehow (even though extremely imperfectly united) to the one Church of God.

if i'm not in the one Church of God, may God place me there
and
if i'm already in the one Church of God, may God forever keep me with Him.

"Salvation is of the LORD"

[Enfluerage]

Re: introduction

Hi !

btw, i talked to a Brother of the Congregation of Christian Brothers at St Mary's Cathedral yesterday. what happened was approximately as follows (sorry for imperfect wording and imperfect recollection):

i started of by telling him that i was one of the most horrible people he'll ever meet, not only because of my personal sins but because of the incredible amount of ideas of the reformation i had.

i then spent ages discussing with him about all this theological knowledge and these experiences i had. he basically listened and told me that when he reads Scripture, he finds new intepretations as he gets older.

he talked about Mother Teresa and how when she started, many people initially wanted the government to stop her ministry. but when the government replied - sure we'll ask her to leave, as long as you are prepared to provide her services. they then kept quiet.

he then asked me to return to basics and said - what do you really feel ?

i replied: God loves me, i love God, i love others.

he asked me if i feared dying.

and i said - no, because God loves me.

i then asked him if i should remain part of the reformation or join the Catholic Church.

he replied - go where the Holy Spirit guides you.

and interestingly enough, i feel it's to talk to him again and maybe attend St Mary's in the future!

anyway, best wishes and take care everyone !

please pray for me =)

[Meek and Humble]

Re: introduction

Hi !

btw, i talked to a Brother of the Congregation of Christian Brothers at St Mary's Cathedral yesterday. what happened was approximately as follows (sorry for imperfect wording and imperfect recollection):

i started of by telling him that i was one of the most horrible people he'll ever meet, not only because of my personal sins but because of the incredible amount of ideas of the reformation i had.

i then spent ages discussing with him about all this theological knowledge and these experiences i had. he basically listened and told me that when he reads Scripture, he finds new intepretations as he gets older.

he talked about Mother Teresa and how when she started, many people initially wanted the government to stop her ministry. but when the government replied - sure we'll ask her to leave, as long as you are prepared to provide her services. they then kept quiet.

he then asked me to return to basics and said - what do you really feel ?

i replied: God loves me, i love God, i love others.

he asked me if i feared dying.

and i said - no, because God loves me.

i then asked him if i should remain part of the reformation or join the Catholic Church.

he replied - go where the Holy Spirit guides you.

and interestingly enough, i feel it's to talk to him again and maybe attend St Mary's in the future!

anyway, best wishes and take care everyone !

please pray for me =)

Boy, you just keep getting stupider and stupider? Don't you know the Pope is the Anti-Christ, the Roman Church the Whore of Babylon, and ALL Catholics go to hell?!

Why Catholics are Going to Hell