Introduction

[this_one]

I've been sent here by Pastor Ezekiel, because I apparently have demons in my rectum and I can fix that by introducing myself.

So, hello. I'm Meredith and I'm a person who doesn't beat up her children or anybody else. I foolishly believe that to be a good person, I have to behave decently and with respect to other beings.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Introduction

What Church does you husband take you to? Please share with us your walk with Jesus.

If you'd like to find out more about Landover Baptist Church, please read THIS thread created especially for new posters.

If you have a question, use the "search" function before posting it. Most likely it is being discussed somewhere on this Godly forum. Please don't waste God's precious bandwidth.

You will keep a respectful tongue in your head whenever addressing your betters, which includes all True Christians™. Failure to do so, or any attempt at inciting debate or mockery of God's Divine Plan, can and will result in the suspension of your posting privileges.

Your rights on this forum are listed HERE. If you feel that any of these rights have been violated, please don't hesitate to contact a Pastor at once.

[Jedediah]

Re: Introduction

Welcome, Margaret. Where does obeying the LORD's commandments factor into your idea of being a "good person"?

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
that thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Introduction

I've been sent here by Pastor Ezekiel, because I apparently have demons in my rectum and I can fix that by introducing myself.

So, hello. I'm Meredith and I'm a person who doesn't beat up her children or anybody else. I foolishly believe that to be a good person, I have to behave decently and with respect to other beings.

Hi Meredith A cautious welcome. I am interested in how you rationalise your being a "good person" when you reject the only source of morality available to us?

source: God
title: The Bible

[this_one]

Re: Introduction

What Church does you husband take you to? Please share with us your walk with Jesus.

My husband doesn't take me anywhere, because I'm my own person. Together, we go to St. John's in London.

Please don't waste God's precious bandwidth.

I would be interested in an explanation how can God have a bandwith. Is there internet in heaven?

[this_one]

Re: Introduction

Hi Meredith A cautious welcome. I am interested in how you rationalise your being a "good person" when you reject the only source of morality available to us?

source: God
title: The Bible

I don't reject anything. I just don't think that devising a whole system of child abuse based on one line from the Bible about child spanking is the right way. Where in the Bible does it say, explicitly, that you should torture your children with humiliation, starvation, cold, fear and death?

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Introduction

I don't reject anything. I just don't think that devising a whole system of child abuse based on one line from the Bible about child spanking is the right way. Where in the Bible does it say, explicitly, that you should torture your children with humiliation, starvation, cold, fear and death?

It is the secularist who has introduced expressions such as "torture" to describe God's Perfect Love.

Are you saying that God does not in fact love children?

When it is suggested that children ought not be beaten or otherwise disciplined according to Biblical standards, we understand that they might not actually know what God's standard is. Having read The Bible however changes that. Then His precepts are being challenged.

Psalm 119:90-96 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth. They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants. Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction. I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me. I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts. The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: but I will consider thy testimonies. I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad. KJV

There are only two alternatives, for the secularist. Either God was deliberately lying about how to discipline—and remember that He is very specific, detailing a range of punishments, when and how to apply them, and by whom—and why would He do that if He loved them? Or God doesn't have a clue what He's on about, in which case why accept His testimony on any subject?

Christians study His precepts, consider His testimonies. They are recorded in The Bible. As a Christian, I'd assume you'd do that too. I hope that is helpful.

[this_one]

Re: Introduction

It is the secularist who has introduced expressions such as "torture" to describe God's Perfect Love.

Are you saying that God does not in fact love children?

When it is suggested that children ought not be beaten or otherwise disciplined according to Biblical standards, we understand that they might not actually know what God's standard is. Having read The Bible however changes that. Then His precepts are being challenged.

Psalm 119:90-96 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth. They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants. Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction. I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me. I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts. The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: but I will consider thy testimonies. I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad. KJV

There are only two alternatives, for the secularist. Either God was deliberately lying about how to discipline—and remember that He is very specific, detailing a range of punishments, when and how to apply them, and by whom—and why would He do that if He loved them? Or God doesn't have a clue what He's on about, in which case why accept His testimony on any subject?

Christians study His precepts, consider His testimonies. They are recorded in The Bible. As a Christian, I'd assume you'd do that too. I hope that is helpful.

I asked for a quote from the Bible that would directly command people to use humiliation, starvation, cold, fear and/or death to torture their children (or, to show your love for them, as you're saying). You have been unable to produce such a quote. Therefore, it is people who have devised those terms and claim them to be connected with the Bible when, in fact, they aren't.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Introduction

I asked for a quote from the Bible that would directly command people to use humiliation, starvation, cold, fear and/or death to torture their children (or, to show your love for them, as you're saying). You have been unable to produce such a quote. Therefore, it is people who have devised those terms and claim them to be connected with the Bible when, in fact, they aren't.

This is the intro thread. I am greeting you. You have already posted in the thread where I've included those scriprures.

As you are fully aware, The Bible does not use the word "torture" which is a metaconstruct invented by people who do not care about either The Bible or whether children wind up in hell.

However, here are some passages which show how God—who made the world and everything in it and who therefore knows everything about it in minutest detail including how to treat the children He created—commands education and discipline to be carried out. Since you mentioned that you attend St John's in London I had assumed that you might read The Bible, at least insofar as you are commenting on its content, and felt that Psalm 119 would be an encouragement.

It is important to Put Jesus First and to read The Bible.

THE BIBLE
Proverbs 20:30 The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
KJV .. look up . context

We know of course that strict discipline is not enjoyable. It is not intended to be. But the heathen overlooks the most important element of discipline. Injury.

God is very clear in His information here. It is the injury which addresses evil. Not just any old injury, the quick cut from a cat o' nine tails for example which heals in a day or two. God explains that the wound resulting from injury needs to turn blue. Otherwise the child, born brim full with sin, remains evil.

You need to explain why God said that or, if you are claiming He did not say that, why it is in The Bible. Otherwise you only have one option. God did say that but was lying.


__________________________________________________

MORE BIBLE
Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
KJV .. look up . context

To be chastened is to be humbled. God's direction to parents is very explicit. It is explicit because it is important: discipline should cause injury and the wounds should become septic. That is what blueness means.

You need to explain why God said that. I assume you know what grievous means?

How does this apply to children? How far does God's Perfect Love extend? Does the punishment He commands ever include death? Let's see what GOD teaches us, regardless of what new age vicars may bleat from time to time or what the libertarian secularist may attempt do demonstrate with statistics.

PROVERBS 23:12-14 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge. Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Why should such discipline be applied to children?

PROVERBS 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

What about daughters? According to the secularist agenda she should be her own woman and determine such things as religious belief or morality for herself. Does God agree with this sentiment?

LEVITICUS 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

OK, so God clearly commands such daughters to be incinerated. But what about other daughters, laypersons’ for example?

DEUTERONOMY 13:6-9 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you† nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

† which in London would include Hinduism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, the Bahá'í Faith, Buddhism, Jaina dharma, Sikhism, indigenous American belief systems, Zen, African traditional religion or such activities as preferring the analects of Confucius over the perfect and revealed Word of God

Many teens go out on the lash, experimenting with alcohol and sometimes party drugs like marihuana or unusual fruit punch recipes. In that environment perhaps the opportunity arises to choose one's sexual identity and sure, parents may well tell their kids "not to do that" or to "be careful" or whatever but teenagers are not noted particularly for listening to parents or for following advice. This in itself is a consequence of falling short of God's standard and God has explained how to respond to that situation both as parents and as a community.

DEUTERONOMY 21:18-21b If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you


These are not suggestions or guidelines from God. They are commandments, part of His Just Law referred to by Jesus when He said:

MATTHEW 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

•

Check outside your window. Earth still there? Then all of the commandments remain in force. Sin still requires blood. That is what distinguishes Christians from savages. We claim Christ's blood. They do not and they cannot because they reject God's Perfect Love. Calling God a liar would come into that category or saying that He was an ignorant buffoon or some callous monster impervious to human suffering. Continuing with God's ongoing revelation, His assurance is that the connection between discipline and Salvation is real and still in force and the responsibility of every parent:

GOD SPEAKING
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV .. look up . context

Chastening is a duty of parenthood? Yes. The family depends on it.

GOD EXPLAINS
Ephesians 3:13-15 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,.
KJV .. look up . etymology vv14, 15

The Bible is explicit and consistent. The Bible is the inerrant word of God. And where discipline is described there is no room for doubt, parent and child alike know that injury is essential for the removal of evil, the evil in every baby's heart, communicated to us all from Eve.

Strict discipline must engender wounds, the stripes of the lash, the blueness of infection. Yet knowing this, the liberal cries "torture" and would send the children to HELL. FOREVER.

__________________________________________________

I am aware that other standards exist. But they are not God's standard and after all, if we could work out how to behave for ourselves what would be the point of or need for Divine revelation? As it stands, people think they know better than God and enforce laws to that effect. How could anyone do that, flying in the face of His Lovingkindness, and still call themselves Christians? Or even want to call themselves Christians? God's Tendermercies result from Perfect Knowledge which in turn enables Perfect Love. The standards we dream up for aouselves are imperfect and meagre. They stand in strong contrast to God's standard, just as Biblical authors knew they must. Can you imagine what would happen if their endeavour were overturned altogether? Would you really want to live in a world like that? Modern relaxation of God's standards for discipline, revealed in the Old Testsmant, reiterated in the New Testament is only the beginning.

Secularists do not intend to stop there. They will not be satisfied until the Chburch is eliminated altogether.

[this_one]

Re: Introduction

As you are fully aware, The Bible does not use the word "torture" which is a metaconstruct invented by people who do not care about either The Bible or whether children wind up in hell.

I'm glad we agree on this.
The word "torture" doesn't appear in the Bible, yet your church chooses to use it. It is your choice to interpret the Bible in such a way. My choice is to interpret it differently. God doesn't command anyone to humiliate children, starve them or keep them in cold. The only thing the Bible mentions is beating. It is your choice to do the other things.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Introduction

I'm glad we agree on this.
The word "torture" doesn't appear in the Bible, yet your church chooses to use it. It is your choice to interpret the Bible in such a way. My choice is to interpret it differently. God doesn't command anyone to humiliate children, starve them or keep them in cold. The only thing the Bible mentions is beating. It is your choice to do the other things.

I don't know what you think "humiliate" means, but if I were lambasted to the point of having infected wounds I would consider that humiliating. The Bible does not only mention beating. God commands an implement to be used and even explains the severity of injuries to be inflicted in that case. Incineration is also commanded, in other cases, and I have posted the source with abundant context. Next up: stoning. Did you miss that?

The Bible is very explicit that parents as well as other members of the community should not pity and persist all the way to death. I have posted God's commandments, cited the context, and asked you if you think God was mistaken or lying.

Now it's your turn. Why are those passages in The Bible? You're the one saying they're wrong. So unless you think The Bible is just a tub of made up horror stories or something, Meredith, in which case why do you attend St John's church in London, you must now explain why you think God was either lying or mistaken.

Until you have done that you will get no responses to any other topic you bring up. That is how a conversation works. And since this is your introduction I'm happy for you to ask a question, and to answer it, but when I ask a question you need to answer me too.

I hope that is helpful.

[Morton Weinstein]

Re: Introduction

Meredith,

My mother would say, "Listen to the red haired girl - she's pretty and she makes sense." And trust me, you'd love my mom. Such a good woman.

From a Jewish perspective, the Lord does spell things out clearly and does not mince words when it comes to the things He wants us to do. Did my mother ever incinerate me? Obviously not - but papa probably wanted to now and then. They did not, however, discipline me gently and it was never - never considered abusive. Only their heavy hand has resulted in me being a good boy with respectful tongue and a good heart.

Ask any Jewish mother and they will tell you they are putting the fear of the Lord into the hearts of the ones they love. I'm not angry - not even bruised.

She's pretty and she makes sense.