Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

**Pastor Al E Pistle** · 01-20-2009, 03:49 AM

Re: Game Theory: Which Religion Gives the Best Payout?

Originally posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post

I'm sure that most of you are familiar with Pascal's wager. It proves that atheism is a gamble not worth taking. If the atheist is right, then when he dies he's just dead, and the Christian doesn't fare any worse for being wrong. If the atheist is wrong, however, then he will pay for it by burning in Hell for eternity while the Christian receives eternal bliss in Heaven.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

Pastor, that is an excellent summation. I wish you had completed it before I suggested to Joe707 that he accept Pascal's wager so that he could have seen the actual, mathematical PROOF of Christianity's indisputable advantages over every other option. Nonetheless, it a seminal work!

Sadly, I must fine you one month's salary and benefits for equating Christianity in the actual terms of a gamble. Since you are not being paid, the automatic tithe will obviously not be deducted from your check this month. We will take a double-deduction next month plus one more for interest.

Yours in Christ
Pastor Al

**Pastor Billy-Reuben** · 01-20-2009, 03:56 AM

Re: Game Theory: Which Religion Gives the Best Payout?

Originally posted by Pastor Al E Pistle View Post

Pastor, that is an excellent summation. I wish you had completed it before I suggested to Joe707 that he accept Pascal's wager so that he could have seen the actual, mathematical PROOF of Christianity's indisputable advantages over every other option. Nonetheless, it a seminal work!

He'll be back. I believe the Lord has plans for him.

Originally posted by Pastor Al E Pistle View Post

Sadly, I must fine you one month's salary and benefits for equating Christianity in the actual terms of a gamble. Since you are not being paid, the automatic tithe will obviously not be deducted from your check this month. We will take a double-deduction next month plus one more for interest.

But choosing Christianity is obviously no gamble. It's the surest sure-thing there is.

I just put it in mathematical terms so that those "logical atheists" (yeah, right

) can relate to it.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

**Billy Ram** · 01-20-2009, 04:01 AM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

I like your chart Pastor Billy. I'm a bit confused about how the christians who are bad people go to heaven. Don't you believe true christians don't sin anymore? Or sin rarely?

**WilliamJenningsBryan** · 01-20-2009, 07:12 AM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Praise Pastor Billy-Reuben, your exposition is on a par (like Schrödinger's Cat) with some of the great physics thought experiments of all time. Even Einstein once remarked that God does not play dice with the universe.

**Ahimaaz Smith** · 01-20-2009, 08:25 AM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Originally posted by Billy Ram View Post

I like your chart Pastor Billy. I'm a bit confused about how the christians who are bad people go to heaven. Don't you believe true christians don't sin anymore? Or sin rarely?

Billy Ram, if you ever meet Deacon Harry Hardwick, you'll know for sure that there are good Christians who aren't necesessarily the friendliest folk out there.
You do not want to cross the good Deacon. I can attest to this personally. And yet nobody alive, with the possible exceptions of Pastor Deacon Fred and Sister Betty Bower, is a better Christian than Deacon Hardwick. He just distributes the Lord's mercy, and that's not always what the rest of society thinks of when they contemplate mercy in general.

**Pastor Billy-Reuben** · 01-20-2009, 02:41 PM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Originally posted by Billy Ram View Post

I like your chart Pastor Billy. I'm a bit confused about how the christians who are bad people go to heaven. Don't you believe true christians don't sin anymore? Or sin rarely?

Of course saved Christians quit sinning after we get saved.

Imagine a man (we'll call him Frank) who spent sixty years of his life lying, cheating, and stealing, but then repented of that, got saved, and then did good works for the remaining 10 years of his life.

The works based religions believe that a good person is one whose good deeds outweigh their evil deeds. So according to those faiths, Frank was, on balance, a bad person.

According to our faith, however, those sins were all washed away the moment he got saved, and he didn't need to go out and try to make up for it because the debt has already been paid.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

**Billy Ram** · 01-20-2009, 03:16 PM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

I get it now. Pastor, you should write a book. I bet you could outsell even Billy Grahm and become America's Favorite Preacher. Praise God!

**Billy Ram** · 01-20-2009, 03:31 PM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Originally posted by Ahimaaz Smith View Post

Billy Ram, if you ever meet Deacon Harry Hardwick, you'll know for sure that there are good Christians who aren't necesessarily the friendliest folk out there.
You do not want to cross the good Deacon. I can attest to this personally. And yet nobody alive, with the possible exceptions of Pastor Deacon Fred and Sister Betty Bower, is a better Christian than Deacon Hardwick. He just distributes the Lord's mercy, and that's not always what the rest of society thinks of when they contemplate mercy in general.

Well he does strike me as a big teddy bear. Not the homersexual idea of a bear, please don't misunderstand me. But yes, I see how he could be used as an instrument of God's Wrath.

**H. Montague Worthington** · 01-20-2009, 10:07 PM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

I like those payouts, Pastor! Christianity is like getting the Mega-Ball every time!

**joe707** · 01-21-2009, 03:30 PM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

That's an interesting matrix you have compiled there Pastor. (thought it made more sense to post here, rather than in Joe's Qs).

For me, there’s an interesting clue in the header. It works only if there’s some future payout. (You will say that this is too obvious to even mention!) Is Pascal’s wager any sort of sensible or adequate guide with which to approach an ineffable and supreme divinity? It's a big concern, because this is not some flutter on a football game we're talking about. It comes from the deepest longing of the soul, doesn't it? But anyway, can we agree it only works on future events? Which makes ‘salvation’ an ideal beneficiary.

Except......... Pascal failed to notice a very dark flipside: you must spend your three score years and ten in this life subscribing to psychologically and spiritually destructive belief. Everything is deferred in favour of an almighty unknown, so all your earthly years are spent in limbo, missing any opportunity right in front of your face. Some would say that’s a pretty big deal. It denies the value and worth of this life, and it denies the possibility of any ‘salvation’ in this life. By loading a payoff so heavily in another world, it exerts a tremendously destructive force on the soul. You have to see the toll this takes on the psychology and the spirit. Is salvation possible in this life? If not, then we are all imprisoned in a constant cycle of fear and hopefulness for our time here. It’s really quite horrific.

[Btw, Hindu and Buddhism are not really ‘deeds’-based; but nor are they a matter of singular belief. It would be closer to the truth to say that they involve a synthesis of both of these, and much more. The spiritual laws are more subtle and complex than have been suggested here. For one thing, thought and action are not treated as separate entities. Ultimately they are not divorced from each other as they are in your theology; where, as you say, one can commit all manner of unspeakable acts, as long as your faith is strong, before the crucial moment.]

Could the kingdom of God also be within each of us? What does that mean, is it jibberish? If it’s possible to know this, then Pascal’s wager as an invite loses all value, and becomes a bit of a meaningless exercise. Like playing roulette, and knowing that one need never put any money down.

Originally posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post

But choosing Christianity is obviously no gamble. It's the surest sure-thing there is.

But what’s to be gained from the idea of future salvation if you already dwell in the infinite love of God, and realised that it was always thus? That it never had a beginning and will never end? If salvation is possible not only after death – but right here, and right now; then I guess that would be the best choice of all.

Why buy a Lotto ticket when are you rich beyond your wildest dreams, and know you have been all along?

**Nobar King** · 01-21-2009, 03:50 PM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Originally posted by joe707 View Post

Except......... Pascal failed to notice a very dark flipside: you must spend your three score years and ten in this life subscribing to psychologically and spiritually destructive belief. Everything is deferred in favour of an almighty unknown, so all your earthly years are spent in limbo, missing any opportunity right in front of your face..

Despite your three dollar words, you're just a simple Jesus hater who has come to Church to criticize those whom he does not know.

**Ezekiel Bathfire** · 01-21-2009, 04:33 PM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Originally posted by joe707 View Post

[…]It works only if there’s some future payout. (You will say that this is too obvious to even mention!)

Pascal was trying to get across that even if there is no “future payout” nothing has been lost, so the minimum overall risk is 0.

Is Pascal’s wager any sort of sensible or adequate guide with which to approach an ineffable and supreme divinity?

Pascal did not arrive at his conjecture in order to supply an approach to God; he merely applied logic to whether or not one should “approach God”.

But anyway, can we agree it only works on future events?

As it was a wager, and all wagers concern future events, I think we can all agree on that. However, if you wish to consider whether the dead benefitted – it would logically appear that they did.

Except......... Pascal failed to notice a very dark flipside: you must spend your three score years and ten in this life subscribing to psychologically and spiritually destructive belief.

He did not fail in anything he attempted in this conjecture. Regardless of what happens in the 70 years on earth, 70 years, as a percentage of eternity is nothing, nil, zero, zilch.

Everything is deferred in favour of an almighty unknown, so all your earthly years are spent in limbo, missing any opportunity right in front of your face.

Limbo is a catholic concept and thus a lie. There is no Biblical evidence for “limbo”. Further, you have made an error of logic – you have assumed that being a True Christian would prevent you from leading a fulfilled life. This is never the case.

Some would say that’s a pretty big deal. It denies the value and worth of this life, and it denies the possibility of any ‘salvation’ in this life.

And, equally, some would not; those people would be correct. Nothing in Pascal’s Wager “denies the possibility of any ‘salvation’ in this life”

By loading a payoff so heavily in another world, it exerts a tremendously destructive force on the soul. You have to see the toll this takes on the psychology and the spirit.

I do not follow this argument at all, if it is an argument. Where is this “toll”?

Is salvation possible in this life?

I would suggest that the answer must be “Yes” If at the moment immediately before earthly death, you are in the state of being ‘Saved’ then there is Salvation in this life. Look on it as the saving of a shipwrecked mariner – he has Salvation when the man in the lifeboat reaches out to him and grasps him.

If not, then we are all imprisoned in a constant cycle of fear and hopefulness for our time here. It’s really quite horrific.

The “imprisoned in a constant cycle of fear” is a little dramatic. Any fear is self-created

But what’s to be gained from the idea of future salvation if you already dwell in the infinite love of God,

Although God’s Love is infinite, it is reserved for those who worship Him – this is a main theme of the Bible.

**Pastor Billy-Reuben** · 01-21-2009, 08:13 PM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Originally posted by joe707 View Post

Btw, Hindu and Buddhism are not really ‘deeds’-based; but nor are they a matter of singular belief. It would be closer to the truth to say that they involve a synthesis of both of these, and much more.

I did show that you have to be Buddhist to get into Nirvana and you have to be Hindu to get into Moksha, but you have a point.

If Buddhism is true, then a good Buddhist should get a better reincarnation than a good non-Buddhist, and an evil Buddhist should get a worse reincarnation than an evil non-Buddhist, because he should have known better. The same goes for Hindus and Wiccans.

I edited the original matrix to take that into account.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

**joe707** · 01-23-2009, 05:21 PM

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Originally posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post

Pascal was trying to get across that even if there is no “future payout” nothing has been lost, so the minimum overall risk is 0.Pascal did not arrive at his conjecture in order to supply an approach to God; he merely applied logic to whether or not one should “approach God”. As it was a wager, and all wagers concern future events, I think we can all agree on that. However, if you wish to consider whether the dead benefitted – it would logically appear that they did.He did not fail in anything he attempted in this conjecture. Regardless of what happens in the 70 years on earth, 70 years, as a percentage of eternity is nothing, nil, zero, zilch.Limbo is a catholic concept and thus a lie. There is no Biblical evidence for “limbo”. Further, you have made an error of logic – you have assumed that being a True Christian would prevent you from leading a fulfilled life. This is never the case.And, equally, some would not; those people would be correct. Nothing in Pascal’s Wager “denies the possibility of any ‘salvation’ in this life” I do not follow this argument at all, if it is an argument. Where is this “toll”?I would suggest that the answer must be “Yes” If at the moment immediately before earthly death, you are in the state of being ‘Saved’ then there is Salvation in this life. Look on it as the saving of a shipwrecked mariner – he has Salvation when the man in the lifeboat reaches out to him and grasps him.The “imprisoned in a constant cycle of fear” is a little dramatic. Any fear is self-createdAlthough God’s Love is infinite, it is reserved for those who worship Him – this is a main theme of the Bible.

I am saying that the minimum overall risk is not ‘0’ - it is painful and confusing for all your earthly days, because one's mind is always projected into an unknown future, dictated by an idea. That is not ‘neutral’. And is logic a useful tool to decide whether one should even approach God? Is that what first drew you to the church? A statistical exercise? Not for me. You are right, 70 years as a percentage of infinity is indeed nothing, but eternity is easily misunderstood. It does not exist in the future or the past, so such relations make no sense. It can not be computed or understood by the mind alone for this reason.

You are right, Pascal may not have expressly denied the possibility of salvation in this life, but it is implicit in the theology. Your example emphasizes this – the preconditions for salvation may happen right before earthly death but the actual salvation is always, always just beyond. You say it is never possible to have it now.

So the toll is this denying of truth right now, and denying yourself the possibility of truth and salvation for every moment of this life. It is crippling to do so. Fear and hope are two sides of the same coin, one can not exist without the other. Both are painful.

.	Christianity is True	Atheism is True
Christian	Heaven (+∞)	Dead (0)
Atheist	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)

.	Christianity is True	Atheism is True	Judaism is True	Islam is True	Hinduism is True	Buddhism is True	Wicca is True
Christian, good person	Heaven (+∞)	Dead (0)	Heaven (+∞)	Heaven, 2nd Class (+∞/2)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Summerland (+∞)
Christian, bad person	Heaven (+∞)	Dead (0)	Dead (0)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated down (-1)
Atheist, good person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Heaven (+∞)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Summerland (+∞)
Atheist, bad person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Dead (0)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated down (-1)
Jew, good person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Heaven (+∞)	Heaven, 2nd Class (+∞/2)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Summerland (+∞)
Jew, bad person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Dead (0)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated down (-1)
Muslim, good person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Heaven (+∞)	Heaven (+∞)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Summerland (+∞)
Muslim, bad person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Dead (0)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated down (-1)
Hindu, perfect person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Heaven (+∞)	Hell (-∞)	Moksha (+∞)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Summerland (+∞)
Hindu, good	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Heaven (+∞)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated way up (+10)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Summerland (+∞)
Hindu, bad person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Dead (0)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated way down (-10)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated down (-1)
Buddhist, perfect person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Heaven (+∞)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Nirvana (+∞)	Summerland (+∞)
Buddhist, good person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Heaven (+∞)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Reincarnated way up (+10)	Summerland (+∞)
Buddhist, bad person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Dead (0)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated way down (-10)	Reincarnated down (-1)
Wiccan, good person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Heaven (+∞)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Reincarnated up (+1)	Summerland (+∞)
Wiccan, bad person	Hell (-∞)	Dead (0)	Dead (0)	Hell (-∞)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated down (-1)	Reincarnated way down (-10)

.	Christianity is True	Islam is True
Christian, good person	Heaven (+∞)	Heaven, 2nd Class (+∞/2)
Christian, bad person	Heaven (+∞)	Hell (-∞)
Muslim, good person	Hell (-∞)	Heaven (+∞)
Muslim, bad person	Hell (-∞)	Hell (-∞)

Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

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