[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

How many times do I have to explain this. Evolution does not have ANYTHING to do with how life formed. It merely explains how life behaves. I'm not trying to convince you there is no God. I'm not trying to tell you how the first life was formed. I just don't see how you can deny that the life that is already here has evolved.

You are aware that the majority of people who believe in evolution also believe in God, right?

They don't believe in the God of the bible then, because the bible says all the universe and life was created. There would be no links between man and apes. Because the bible says man was created from the dust of the ground. And different animals and plants were created at separate times.
So that is a contradiction with those scientists. That is not rational.

'Evolution' isn't real, it is only in the minds of some scientists. It's not something that happens in the real world. So for scientists to put some sort of boundaries on something that is not real, is not rational.
If life can't start on it's own , and it can't start by 'evolution' ( as the scientists themselves say) Which eliminates chemical 'evolution',( how does anything get started? The only hope for the scientists is that they find some life just popping out of the ground, like magic.
If life can only start by creation, then all the theories of 'evolution' are meaningless . And you can only say they were created.
To get working DNA into life anywhere, takes intelligence. That is why the scientists can't figure it out. ( it's not that the scientists don't have intelligence,... well you know what I mean)

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

They don't believe in the God of the bible then, because the bible says all the universe and life was created. There would be no links between man and apes. Because the bible says man was created from the dust of the ground. And different animals and plants were created at separate times.

Theistic evolution


Can You Believe in Evolution and Be a Christian?


Can a Christian believe in evolution?


A Christian Who Believes in Evolution


These are but a few of the people who disagree. But let me guess, they are all demon-possessed because they do not believe as you do.

'Evolution' isn't real, it is only in the minds of some scientists.

Observing Evolution - How Evolution Has Been Observed

If life can't start on it's own , and it can't start by 'evolution' ( as the scientists themselves say) Which eliminates chemical 'evolution',( how does anything get started?

How did God get started? Be sure to be rational.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Theistic evolution


Can You Believe in Evolution and Be a Christian?


Can a Christian believe in evolution?


A Christian Who Believes in Evolution


These are but a few of the people who disagree. But let me guess, they are all demon-possessed because they do not believe as you do.

Observing Evolution - How Evolution Has Been Observed

How did God get started? Be sure to be rational.

A number of contradictions here.
The first is , creation as the beginning of life is not the evolution that that the scientists are professing.
For example If you say God created the and the earth but not life, but life came from the materials on the earth. Did not God set up the materials for life on the earth. So that they would react properly so that life could start. That would be like the scientists taking the material on the earth bring them into a lab and getting life to start. That is creation, of life. The other thing is that we don't see that still happening today. Life does not just pop out of the ground.
Also did God set up 'evolution ' to work? If that is so, that is not what the scientists are saying, about it. They say it just happened as a huge chance, and that 'evolution' was mutations ( mistakes) that all happened to benefit life. Did God also put the DNA in life? If that is so what does any of this have to do with 'evolution'.
Besides I never hear from the scientists that God created the universe and started life, there is no mention of a God. Is it that they are starting to see there has to be a God?

Besides man was made from the dust of the ground and the breath of life was given him. There is a lot more involvement, than just creating the universe.

This all is so irrational , that it make those scientists worst than the others.


As to how did God get started?

The bible says God was always there. That is the only answer there can be. I just have to accept that.

The question that goes with this , to the scientists is, what was there before the material universe? If it was energy, where did that energy come from?

I can ask you, where is the start and the end to the universe, if there was no material in it?
Can you understand no beginning? I can not. I can understand no end. But no beginning I think is beyond human understanding.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I can ask you, where is the start and the end to the universe, if there was no material in it?
Can you understand no beginning? I can not. I can understand no end. But no beginning I think is beyond human understanding.

I should have used the word 'space' in this sentence rather than universe.

I can ask you, where is the start and the end to ' space', if there was no material in it?

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

A number of contradictions here.
The first is , creation as the beginning of life is not the evolution that that the scientists are professing.
For example If you say God created the and the earth but not life, but life came from the materials on the earth. Did not God set up the materials for life on the earth. So that they would react properly so that life could start. That would be like the scientists taking the material on the earth bring them into a lab and getting life to start. That is creation, of life. The other thing is that we don't see that still happening today. Life does not just pop out of the ground.

Why, but WHY are you incapable of understanding that evolution has NOTHING to do with how the first life started?! It only has to do with how we see life acting now. Believing in evolution does not mean you have to believe that life just popped out magically from the ground. How many times do I have to say that? Evolution is NOT about how life started!

Also did God set up 'evolution ' to work? If that is so, that is not what the scientists are saying, about it. They say it just happened as a huge chance, and that 'evolution' was mutations ( mistakes) that all happened to benefit life.

Again, you talk about scientists as all having the exact same opinions, which they do not.

What part of what is there do you not believe in? Are you saying there have never been any mutations? Are you saying species never have beneficial adaptations? And if you believe the world has been around for billions of years, why can you not believe that God worked evolution?

The Bible also says God created all of the mountains (Amos 4:13). Yet we know that mountains took billions of years of erosion, volcanic activity and shift tectonic plates to be formed. Are the scientists lying about this too?

Besides I never hear from the scientists that God created the universe and started life, there is no mention of a God

When I go to the doctor, he never tells me that the sin of my disease is sin and that God has caused it. (If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee. -- Exodus 15:26)

Likewise, when I listen to the weather report on TV, the meteorologist never takes the time to explain that God is in control of the weather, and that if you pray hard enough God might change it (1 Samuel 12:18 So Samuel called unto the LORD; and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day. )

This doesn't mean all doctors and weather men are atheist satan-worshipers. It just has nothing to do with going about their job.

The question that goes with this , to the scientists is, what was there before the material universe? If it was energy, where did that energy come from?

Again, you ignorantly suggest that all scientists are atheists, when that is not true at all.

Can you understand no beginning? I can not. I can understand no end. But no beginning I think is beyond human understanding.

And yet you say God has no beginning, and that is perfectly rational to you.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Why, but WHY are you incapable of understanding that evolution has NOTHING to do with how the first life started?! It only has to do with how we see life acting now. Believing in evolution does not mean you have to believe that life just popped out magically from the ground. How many times do I have to say that? Evolution is NOT about how life started!

It's not that I am incapable to understand what the scientists are saying about 'evolution' and the start to life. It is that they are wrong about saying that.
There is no difference to the start to life and all life.
If the start to life is creation , than all life was created.
Life comes from life.
That is what there is evidence for. There is no other evidence.
'Evolution' as the scientists are saying , demands that there was a non creative start to life. But the scientists say from what they know now, is impossible. So they have a problem. No creative start to life, no 'evolution' . They are the same thing. If they want to say that God when he created life programmed into that life the ability to make all the variety we have now. Is in contradiction, in the life we see. Because a dog gets more dogs , so all there would be is a world full of dogs, nothing else.
DNA requires intelligence, there is DNA in life,. DNA is responsible for the completed animals we see today, that is all creation. Mutations do not make a dog into something other than a dog. And they are usually bad.
There is no difference from the start to life and the variety in all life we see.
So my three facts are :

Life comes from life
Dogs get more dogs
there is design in life.

Many scientists have received awards for copying creation. Because of the great design that is there.

So when scientists say the start to life and 'evolution' are separate things, that is circler thinking. You think one thing is correct ('evolution') which means the other has to be correct (even though there is no evidence for that)
The bible supports the science that we have. That is rational.
'Evolution' goes against all three facts. That is irrational.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Again, you talk about scientists as all having the exact same opinions, which they do not.

What part of what is there do you not believe in? Are you saying there have never been any mutations? Are you saying species never have beneficial adaptations? And if you believe the world has been around for billions of years, why can you not believe that God worked evolution?

The Bible also says God created all of the mountains (Amos 4:13). Yet we know that mountains took billions of years of erosion, volcanic activity and shift tectonic plates to be formed. Are the scientists lying about this too?

Adaptations are one thing, that is why we have variety in dogs for example. But adaptation does not make a dog something other than a dog.
Mutations happen, they are usually bad. But mutations do not change a dog into something other than a dog. You can not get across the DNA barrier.

The scientists could be correct about the mountains, maybe some of the time lines, but that is only a maybe. Can you trust their dating methods, who knows. But generally the scientist are correct that it took a long time, for the earth and life to come about. Certainty more than 6, 24 hr, days.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

When I go to the doctor, he never tells me that the sin of my disease is sin and that God has caused it. (If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee. --

The result of sin is imperfection. Imperfection results in, sickness and death.
It is the perfection we need re-established.
Man's minds with imperfection is bad and as we see full of wars. This can not go on forever. At some point , the people that would like to follow God and regain that perfection, have a right to have that. It's too bad but most people don't want that. So God has to step in and change things, back to the original state.
He gave man a length of time ( from Adam ) to go on their own to see how it would work out. Well we see that.
It's getting close to the time, to get a change of government ( Satan is the ruler of this world now). That is what the 'time of the end' ( Armageddon) is about.( getting rid of Satan)

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Likewise, when I listen to the weather report on TV, the meteorologist never takes the time to explain that God is in control of the weather, and that if you pray hard enough God might change it (1 Samuel 12:18 So Samuel called unto the LORD; and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day. )

When it comes to the weather , I like to ask the paper boy.

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

'Evolution' as the scientists are saying , demands that there was a non creative start to life.

No. No it does not. Have you read the Origin of Species? Not once, not once, NOT ONCE does it say ANYTHING about how life started. Evolution does not talk about how life was created. Just like meteorology does not talk about where water came from. It just helps us study when it's going to rain.

Because a dog gets more dogs , so all there would be is a world full of dogs, nothing else.

What happens when the species slowly changes over billions of years?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

No. No it does not. Have you read the Origin of Species? Not once, not once, NOT ONCE does it say ANYTHING about how life started. Evolution does not talk about how life was created. Just like meteorology does not talk about where water came from. It just helps us study when it's going to rain.



What happens when the species slowly changes over billions of years?

Like I said before, the scientists may not talk about a connection or think about as though the start to life and evolution are connected.
But the reality is, they are. Life comes from life they are connected. What happens at the start to life affects all life.
The scientists, have created this is idea that the start life and the rest of life is separate. Assuming , that the start to life is from non creation. Because the 'evolution theory' doesn't explain the start to life, they have to make it 2 separate events.
The bible says God made life according to it's kind. So dogkind ( kinds of dogs) ,or birdkind ( or kinds of birds), or mankind. There was a separate creation for kinds of life. And each of these kinds has a large variety. Often because of natural breeding or intelligent breeding ( man making a poodle). A certain line or breed of dog may die out and so the line goes in a different direction., over time. Thus we have large variety, of dogs.
But dogs always remain dogs.
This idea of 'evolution' doesn't exists except in the minds of the scientists. No scientists no 'evolution'. No two events.

And no we don't know exactly what a kind is( how encompassing). But then neither do the scientists know what a species is. So it's kind of hard to compare the two.

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Like I said before, the scientists may not talk about a connection or think about as though the start to life and evolution are connected.
But the reality is, they are. Life comes from life they are connected. What happens at the start to life affects all life.

Okay, so life is exactly as it was when it was created? So that means all living creatures today were taken from the dirt and breathed life into, (except for female humans, who are all created from the ribs of their husband)?

No, everything alive today is here because an organism with different characteristics gave birth to it. In your view, God set up a natural process for life to continue to start life on its own. The small differences we see in one generation to the next will inevitably turn into a huge difference over millions of generations.

Why do you think people get new flu vaccines every year? Is this a government conspiracy?

The scientists,

What, all scientists? Even astronomers, chemists, mathematicians, physicists, psychologists, social scientists? You don't seem to have a very good handle on what a scientist is...

And no we don't know exactly what a kind is( how encompassing). But then neither do the scientists know what a species is. So it's kind of hard to compare the two.

Can I ask - why do you think that black people come from Africa? White people from Europe? Asians from Asia? If we all descend from the same two people, shouldn't we all be the same race? Or have the races changed over time?

Why are there so many animals that only live in Australia, that are so different from the animals we see in different parts of the world? Why did God decide to fill this island with animals that the rest of the world doesn't have?

And what about stars? The Bible says God made all of the stars on the fourth day of creation, after the earth was made. But astronomers tell us that many stars existed long before the earth, that new stars are constantly being formed, and that it takes millions of years for the necessary gases to finally become a star. Are the evil scientists lying about this too?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Okay, so life is exactly as it was when it was created? So that means all living creatures today were taken from the dirt and breathed life into, (except for female humans, who are all created from the ribs of their husband)?

No, everything alive today is here because an organism with different characteristics gave birth to it. In your view, God set up a natural process for life to continue to start life on its own. The small differences we see in one generation to the next will inevitably turn into a huge difference over millions of generations.

Why do you think people get new flu vaccines every year? Is this a government conspiracy?

What, all scientists? Even astronomers, chemists, mathematicians, physicists, psychologists, social scientists? You don't seem to have a very good handle on what a scientist is...

Can I ask - why do you think that black people come from Africa? White people from Europe? Asians from Asia? If we all descend from the same two people, shouldn't we all be the same race? Or have the races changed over time?

Why are there so many animals that only live in Australia, that are so different from the animals we see in different parts of the world? Why did God decide to fill this island with animals that the rest of the world doesn't have?

And what about stars? The Bible says God made all of the stars on the fourth day of creation, after the earth was made. But astronomers tell us that many stars existed long before the earth, that new stars are constantly being formed, and that it takes millions of years for the necessary gases to finally become a star. Are the evil scientists lying about this too?

Hi Bogdana

Of course there are changes over long periods of time. In humans we adapt, we also breed with ones that live near us, and in some cases if we are isolated from other humans we can developed quite strong characteristics.
We also see where virus's change and adapt and even become drug resistant. Life was designed to survive.
No it is not my view that life was to start on it's own. God created different forms of life.
Not all life changed very much , mosquito's are much different at all for a long time back.

As for races of people, after the flood and Noah and his sons, came out of the ark. The bible mentions 70 families. But just starting from 3 Sons.

JAPHETH GOMER Cimmerians, N of Black Sea
Aryan Branch of Speech: ASHKENAZ SE of Black Sea
Indo-European (14 families) RIPHATH Paphlagonians
TOGARMAH Armenians
MAGOG
MADAI Medes, S of Caspian Sea
JAVAN Ionians, Greeks of SE Europe
ELISHAH Near Greece
TARSHISH Pre-Spanish in SW Europe
KITTIM Cyprus
DODANIM (RODANIM) Island of Rhodes
and Aegean Islands
TUBAL Tibareni, in Asia Minor
MESHECH Phrygians of Asia Minor
TIRAS Tyrrhenians, of the Aegean
Islands and Coastlands

HAM Hamitic Branch of CUSH Ethiopians in E Africa and
Speech: Afro-Asiatic Arabia
(30 families) SEBA In E Africa
HAVILAH In SW Arabia
SABTAH In S Arabia
RAAMAH In SW Arabia
SHEBA In SW Arabia
DEDAN In Arabia
SABTECA In S Arabia or Ethiopia
MIZRAIM Egyptians
LUDIM In N Africa
ANAMIM In Egypt
LEHABIM Libyans
NAPHTUHIM In N Egypt
PATHRUSIM In Upper Egypt
CASLUHIM
PHILISTINES Coastal Plain of
Palestine
CAPHTORIM Cretans
PUT In N Africa
CANAAN W of Jordan River
SIDON Sidonians (Phoenicians)
HETH Hittites
JEBUSITE Around early Jerusalem
AMORITE In Palestine
GIRGASHITE W of Jordan River
HIVITE Central Palestine
ARKITE W of the Lebanon Mountains
SINITE
ARVADITE Island off Syrian Coast
ZEMARITE N Phoenician Coast
HAMATHITE N of Palestine

SHEM Semitic Branch of ELAM SE of Mesopotamia
Speech: Asiatic ASSHUR Assyrians
(26 families) ARPACHSHAD
SHELAH
EBER In Arabia and Mesopotamia
PELEG
JOKTAN Arabians
ALMODAD
SHELEPH
HAZARMAVETH
JERAH
HADORAM
UZAL
DIKLAH
OBAL
ABIMAEL
SHEBA
OPHIR
HAVILAH
JOBAB
LUD Lydians of Asia Minor
ARAM Aramaeans, Syrians
UZ
HUL Near Armenia
GETHER
MASH Syro-Arabian Desert or
N Mesopotamia


These families would inter breed thus developing quite distinct characteristics.
Also these families were much closer to perfection than we are, today. Before the flood people lived around 900 years or so.

As for animal distribution after the flood we are not told how or what God did. But he did bring the animals to Noah, so it is very possible God had some hand in distributing animals after the flood.
In the creation account, God said he made the heavens and the earth before even the creative days on earth. So the sun and stars were already there.

The six creative days.
1 Light; division between day and night Ge 1:3-5
2 Expanse, a division between waters
beneath the expanse and waters above it Ge 1:6-8
3 Dry land; vegetation Ge 1:9-13
4 Heavenly luminaries become discernible
from earth Ge 1:14-19
5 Aquatic souls and flying creatures Ge 1:20-23
6 Land animals; man Ge 1:24-31

So the stars were created the same time as the universe, but only became visible on the 4th day. This would have been because of thick water in the atmosphere mentioned in the 2nd creative day. Somewhat like a very heavy overcast day we get today. Where we could neither see the sun during the day or stars at night.

Are the evil scientists lying about this too?

But those evil scientists are trying to get you look elsewhere , any place except the bible.

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Hi Bogdana

Of course there are changes over long periods of time. In humans we adapt, we also breed with ones that live near us, and in some cases if we are isolated from other humans we can developed quite strong characteristics.

Yes. You believe that all the changes in the races happened within only a relatively small time frame (We can see from ancient artwork that the inhabitants of Africa, Asia, and Europe already looked the way they did thousands of years ago). So, how much more would they change if this kept going for a million years? A billion years?

We also see where virus's change and adapt and even become drug resistant. Life was designed to survive.

Changing and adaptation is all evolution means. Now you've got it. It has nothing to do with how life was started. There's no evidence about that, so nobody can make a scientific claim about that at present.

No it is not my view that life was to start on it's own. God created different forms of life.

God created only one pair of each life form, according to you. He set them up to keep making more, on their own. And these change. Like you admitted above. They adapt and change in order to survive. That's the theory of evolution.

As for races of people, after the flood and Noah and his sons, came out of the ark. The bible mentions 70 families. But just starting from 3 Sons.

So you believe in a literal flood?

The Flood has me puzzled. The Torah sets the event around 2300BC (i.e. after the original Gilgamesh account on which it was based was actually written). The devastation left only 8 people on Earth. These were Noah, his wife, 3 sons and their wives. However historical records before and after that date indicate flourishing civilisations in China, India and Egypt.

To achieve this feat Noahs sons and their wives would have had to reproduce at an alarming rate following the flood, perhaps a million children per couple. These children would have to take on the physical appearance, language, religions, customs, infrastructure, technology and geographical location of the civilizations wiped out in the flood. They would have to discover and settle in Western Europe, Egypt and the Mediterranean, China, India, Sub Saharan Africa, North and South America and various peripheries of these places. Some of them would have to re-invent gunpowder and currency while others would have to forget the invention of the wheel and writing (and of course Yahweh). All of this would have to happen in the space of a decade or so. According the Genesis however Noah had only 14 grandchildren."


Ok maybe the Jews got the date wrong. I hope you can explain. But theres another problem.

To fit all the creatures of the world in their boat; 2.8 species million at present estimate, times 2 (for he took 2 of each) would have needed room for an estimated 5.6 million animals. This vessel would need to divide the carnivores form the vegetarians, the predators from the prey. No owl could eat a mouse, no spider a fly, no lion a lamb.

Talking to zoologists I am informed it takes an average of 0.01588 acres to house and 0.0053 tonnes of food per week to feed per animal averaging from the largest to the smallest. Putting the animals in a double deck, and the people on a third deck, allowing room for 170,000 tonnes of food (40 days supply) and 33,000 people to feed and clean out the quarters would require a vessel 3 kilometres wide by 28 kilometres long and 3 storeys high (the size of a small city) made of timber, (ok 2 storeys high if you leave out the 33,000 farmhands). And it would need to float. This is an impossible engineering feat. How did Noah & his family manage it?

In the creation account, God said he made the heavens and the earth before even the creative days on earth. So the sun and stars were already there.

Now you're changing what the Bible says in order to make things more convenient to you. The Bible says He MADE them on the 4th day. Not made them visible.

Genesis 1: 16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.



If you can take the Bible figuratively here, why can you not take it figuratively in other places?


After all, if you read the Bible carefully, you see it does not say God MADE the plants and animals. It only says that He told the earth to bring forth life.



And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree. -- Genesis 1:11


And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. -- Genesis 1:24

But those evil scientists are trying to get you look elsewhere , any place except the bible.

Except for the ones that believe in the Bible also, right?
Evolution, Religion, and Creationism



And why are you so concerned about looking in the Bible? When was the last time you read the Enuma Elis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C3%BBma_Eli%C5%A1

It is a Babylonian myth, and it is older the book of Genesis. It has a very similar story to Genesis 1, so scholars believe that the writer of Genesis was inspired by this story. But it also has important difference. For one thing, it talks about the existence of many different gods. Why should I believe your Bible over this story?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Yes. You believe that all the changes in the races happened within only a relatively small time frame (We can see from ancient artwork that the inhabitants of Africa, Asia, and Europe already looked the way they did thousands of years ago). So, how much more would they change if this kept going for a million years? A billion years?

Are you saying they would not be human anymore. Where are the almost humans and what are humans turning into so that they are no longer human?

Changing and adaptation is all evolution means. Now you've got it. It has nothing to do with how life was started. There's no evidence about that, so nobody can make a scientific claim about that at present.

Does 'evolution' to you also mean intelligent 'evolution' like a program 'evolved' over time?
But ofcourse it didn't go on for a billion years.