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Re: Scientific proof the Earth is flat!
I was challenged on this site that my "theological chops" were lack luster and it was in direct opposition of this thread and notion of a flat earth. So here I am to attempt to refute this theory/ However, seeing those who frequent this site place God and his word above all else I will not be using "pure" logic or philosophy but just theology, the study of God and his word.
1The first passage you quote is Jeremiah 16:19 "O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." You then go on to say that because the text directly says "ends of the earth" that the earth must have some physical end.
First of all this is taking the passage grossly out of context. Let me just say I am recognizing that the bible in its entirety is the inspired word of God, however, many places of the bible quote the words of the human authors or other people. So unless God was talking directly through a person we must take these pieces of scripture to be the words of men. This particular passage is a prayer from the author of the this book (the prophet Jeremiah) to God. Many old testiment prayers were poems and/or songs (in fact the whole of the book of psalms are these) and appears to be the case in this prayer. If wee look at the whole prayer (to take it into context) Jeremiah 16:19-17:4 we see Jeremiah praise the Lord's safety and then go on to lament the sins of the Hebrew people at this time. This is not the direct word of God but a prayer spoken my a man, he could have been mistaken.
He was however a prophet, so he might have had knowledge about this subject beyond is normal understanding. Was the mention of the ends of the earth poetic imagery or incite into the workings of the world?
Well several translations don't have the mentioned "ends of the earth"
New Living Translation "Lord, you are my strength and fortress, my refuge in the day of trouble! Nations from around the world will come to you and say, “Our ancestors left us a foolish heritage,for they worshiped worthless idols."
Contemporary English Translation "Our LORD, you are the one who gives me strength and protects me like a fortress when I am in trouble. People will come to you from distant nations and say, "Our ancestors worshiped false and useless gods,
New Century Translation "Lord, you are my strength and my protection, my safe place in times of trouble. The nations will come to you from all over the world and say, "Our ancestors had only false gods, useless idols that didn't help them.
Lets go back to the original Hebrew: יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִיבְּיוֹם צָרָה אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵיאָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְשֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵיןבָּם מוֹעִיל
The phrase being scrutinized here is גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ which directly translates to "nations shall come to" There is no direct mentions of where these nations are coming from which, when given the context of the passage, leads us to read it as saying all nations will come. There is no mention of the earth or it's shape in the original Hebrew, it is only latter in the English translations that the poetic language " the nations will come from the ends of the earth" is added.
The bible make no mention of the shape of the earth in this passage.
2 The second passage you quote is Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."
Revelations is a book of prophecy which, again, leads us to assume some degree of poetic license is present. All prophecies in the bible are filled with poetic language and vagueness. Jesus was prophesied to be a King: Psalms 2:6 (NIV) "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill." And many of the Hebrew people expected him to overthrow the Roman government upon his coming but as we see in John...
John 18:33-37 (NIV) Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34 "Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?" 35 "Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." 37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
He was a King, as prophesied, but not an earthly king as they expected.
Prophecy isn't given to us so that we can know the future:
Matthew 24:36 (New International Version, ©2010) 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
But is given to us that might have an idea as to what is coming and can prepare for it now.
So this prophecy might not be literal. The angles that John saw in this prophetic vision (or the places that they stood) might be a symbol for something else.
Lets go back to the original text. Fortunately our oldest copies of the New Testament are in ancient Greek, which is much closer to our Latin based English.
Μετὰ τοῦτο εἶδον τέσσαρας ἀγγέλους ἑστῶτας ἐπὶ τὰς τέσσαρας γωνίας τῆς γῆς, κρατοῦντας τοὺς τέσσαρας ἀνέμους τῆς γῆς, ἵνα μὴ πνέῃ ἄνεμος ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς μήτε ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης μήτε ἐπὶ πᾶν δένδρον.
Now the passage being scrutinized here is: ἀγγέλους ἑστῶτας ἐπὶ τὰς τέσσαρας γωνίας τῆς γῆς, Which directly translates to "four messenger(s) make firm upon the four corners of the earth". It does say, γωνίας or gonia in the Latin alphabet, which does translate to corner. We do see this word used ten times in the New Testament but only in revelations do we see it used in this way. In most other places of the New Testament it is describing the corner of a buildings foundation. Here it is being used metaphorically to describe the foundations of the earth (also a metaphor).
Given that this is a book of prophecy and the poetic language used in this book and this passage the mention of the four corners of the earth in the passage should not be taken literally.
3 The third piece of scripture you quote: Isaiah 40:22:
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.
Again, this is a psalm (prayer in song) so poetic license is to be expected. My previous arguments on the subject apply.
Again, however, this is being spoken by a prophet so he may posses knowledge beyond his own. So lets go to the original Hebrew.
כב הַיֹּשֵׁב עַל-חוּג הָאָרֶץ, וְיֹשְׁבֶיהָ כַּחֲגָבִים; הַנּוֹטֶה כַדֹּק שָׁמַיִם, וַיִּמְתָּחֵם כָּאֹהֶל לָשָׁבֶת
The word that is being translated into circle here is הָאָרֶץ which, by itself actually translates to horizon, or the furthest place. Simple inserting this translation the passage more accurately reads "He sits upon the furthest know place," Which I think we can agree is a pretty accurate descriptor for God power and majesty. But, again, no direct mention of the nature of the earth. Although in this exact context (the only place in the Bible this context is used) we might read it as "he sits upon the place beyond the earth" or "He sits upon the horizon" but in any case the exact mention of the shape of the planet is not present.
The youtube video you linked in the portion of your post argues the semantic reference to a circle or a sphere in this passage, but niether word is actually present.
The argument that we know the prophet Isaiah had any knowledge of the shape of the earth from any source because of this passage holds is simply not valid. Here, he is praying to God praising his wonder, not lecturing on the geometry of any body of mass.
Also, I would like to point out that all three passages presented here are being written by prophets. None of them are direct quotes of God or Christ.
I would go on to attempt to refute your picture here but seeing as they are not in the bible I can't actually disprove them theologically. (I can disprove via other means but I said I would keep this a theological discussion)
Your augment that the earth is flat has no foundation in the bible.
I was challenged on this site that my "theological chops" were lack luster and it was in direct opposition of this thread and notion of a flat earth. So here I am to attempt to refute this theory/ However, seeing those who frequent this site place God and his word above all else I will not be using "pure" logic or philosophy but just theology, the study of God and his word.
1The first passage you quote is Jeremiah 16:19 "O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." You then go on to say that because the text directly says "ends of the earth" that the earth must have some physical end.
First of all this is taking the passage grossly out of context. Let me just say I am recognizing that the bible in its entirety is the inspired word of God, however, many places of the bible quote the words of the human authors or other people. So unless God was talking directly through a person we must take these pieces of scripture to be the words of men. This particular passage is a prayer from the author of the this book (the prophet Jeremiah) to God. Many old testiment prayers were poems and/or songs (in fact the whole of the book of psalms are these) and appears to be the case in this prayer. If wee look at the whole prayer (to take it into context) Jeremiah 16:19-17:4 we see Jeremiah praise the Lord's safety and then go on to lament the sins of the Hebrew people at this time. This is not the direct word of God but a prayer spoken my a man, he could have been mistaken.
He was however a prophet, so he might have had knowledge about this subject beyond is normal understanding. Was the mention of the ends of the earth poetic imagery or incite into the workings of the world?
Well several translations don't have the mentioned "ends of the earth"
New Living Translation "Lord, you are my strength and fortress, my refuge in the day of trouble! Nations from around the world will come to you and say, “Our ancestors left us a foolish heritage,for they worshiped worthless idols."
Contemporary English Translation "Our LORD, you are the one who gives me strength and protects me like a fortress when I am in trouble. People will come to you from distant nations and say, "Our ancestors worshiped false and useless gods,
New Century Translation "Lord, you are my strength and my protection, my safe place in times of trouble. The nations will come to you from all over the world and say, "Our ancestors had only false gods, useless idols that didn't help them.
Lets go back to the original Hebrew: יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִיבְּיוֹם צָרָה אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵיאָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְשֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵיןבָּם מוֹעִיל
The phrase being scrutinized here is גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ which directly translates to "nations shall come to" There is no direct mentions of where these nations are coming from which, when given the context of the passage, leads us to read it as saying all nations will come. There is no mention of the earth or it's shape in the original Hebrew, it is only latter in the English translations that the poetic language " the nations will come from the ends of the earth" is added.
The bible make no mention of the shape of the earth in this passage.
2 The second passage you quote is Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."
Revelations is a book of prophecy which, again, leads us to assume some degree of poetic license is present. All prophecies in the bible are filled with poetic language and vagueness. Jesus was prophesied to be a King: Psalms 2:6 (NIV) "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill." And many of the Hebrew people expected him to overthrow the Roman government upon his coming but as we see in John...
John 18:33-37 (NIV) Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34 "Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?" 35 "Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." 37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
He was a King, as prophesied, but not an earthly king as they expected.
Prophecy isn't given to us so that we can know the future:
Matthew 24:36 (New International Version, ©2010) 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
But is given to us that might have an idea as to what is coming and can prepare for it now.
So this prophecy might not be literal. The angles that John saw in this prophetic vision (or the places that they stood) might be a symbol for something else.
Lets go back to the original text. Fortunately our oldest copies of the New Testament are in ancient Greek, which is much closer to our Latin based English.
Μετὰ τοῦτο εἶδον τέσσαρας ἀγγέλους ἑστῶτας ἐπὶ τὰς τέσσαρας γωνίας τῆς γῆς, κρατοῦντας τοὺς τέσσαρας ἀνέμους τῆς γῆς, ἵνα μὴ πνέῃ ἄνεμος ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς μήτε ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης μήτε ἐπὶ πᾶν δένδρον.
Now the passage being scrutinized here is: ἀγγέλους ἑστῶτας ἐπὶ τὰς τέσσαρας γωνίας τῆς γῆς, Which directly translates to "four messenger(s) make firm upon the four corners of the earth". It does say, γωνίας or gonia in the Latin alphabet, which does translate to corner. We do see this word used ten times in the New Testament but only in revelations do we see it used in this way. In most other places of the New Testament it is describing the corner of a buildings foundation. Here it is being used metaphorically to describe the foundations of the earth (also a metaphor).
Given that this is a book of prophecy and the poetic language used in this book and this passage the mention of the four corners of the earth in the passage should not be taken literally.
3 The third piece of scripture you quote: Isaiah 40:22:
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.
Again, this is a psalm (prayer in song) so poetic license is to be expected. My previous arguments on the subject apply.
Again, however, this is being spoken by a prophet so he may posses knowledge beyond his own. So lets go to the original Hebrew.
כב הַיֹּשֵׁב עַל-חוּג הָאָרֶץ, וְיֹשְׁבֶיהָ כַּחֲגָבִים; הַנּוֹטֶה כַדֹּק שָׁמַיִם, וַיִּמְתָּחֵם כָּאֹהֶל לָשָׁבֶת
The word that is being translated into circle here is הָאָרֶץ which, by itself actually translates to horizon, or the furthest place. Simple inserting this translation the passage more accurately reads "He sits upon the furthest know place," Which I think we can agree is a pretty accurate descriptor for God power and majesty. But, again, no direct mention of the nature of the earth. Although in this exact context (the only place in the Bible this context is used) we might read it as "he sits upon the place beyond the earth" or "He sits upon the horizon" but in any case the exact mention of the shape of the planet is not present.
The youtube video you linked in the portion of your post argues the semantic reference to a circle or a sphere in this passage, but niether word is actually present.
The argument that we know the prophet Isaiah had any knowledge of the shape of the earth from any source because of this passage holds is simply not valid. Here, he is praying to God praising his wonder, not lecturing on the geometry of any body of mass.
Also, I would like to point out that all three passages presented here are being written by prophets. None of them are direct quotes of God or Christ.
I would go on to attempt to refute your picture here but seeing as they are not in the bible I can't actually disprove them theologically. (I can disprove via other means but I said I would keep this a theological discussion)
Your augment that the earth is flat has no foundation in the bible.
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