[RyanTheM8ron]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

I believe in God and all, but using "we don't know how it happened yet, so god did it" isn't a very good argument to use if you wanted to convert people into your religion. Though, just because something hasn't been proved, doesn't automatically mean God *didn't* do it. It it would be silly to use lack of knowledge of something as an argument favoring God's existence.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

If God didn't exist, why would the Great State of Mississippi require school children to start the school day require with a "daily recitation of Ten Commandments"?

Checkmate, atheists!

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

I believe in God and all, but using "we don't know how it happened yet, so god did it" isn't a very good argument to use if you wanted to convert people into your religion. Though, just because something hasn't been proved, doesn't automatically mean God *didn't* do it. It it would be silly to use lack of knowledge of something as an argument favoring God's existence.

I'm not sure which "God" you believe in and the cascading negatives may not have produced the meaning you intended. But we are not discussing “"we don't know how it happened"” we are discussing “we do know how it happened” which would be less confusing for you after reading The Bible.

Take the oscillating universe as an example. Those who claim this occurred (although it would still be occurring of course within that model) have no idea how it happened. They could propose that "antimatter" was some bits of the previously existing universe which carried through into this one.—.perhaps by quantum tunnelling to escape annihilation but if everything passes through a singularity periodically there would be no particles to annihilate during the passage because space for them to occupy would not exist.—.and that relative to the previous (antimatter) universe (which turned inside out to create this one) we are ourselves in an antimatter universe and that early inflation was due to a critical need for space, within the singularity, where particles could manifest in their inverted form. You might call this a theory of quantum momentum. We don't know how this happened or even if it happened but I've never heard it proposed as a proof for God.

[Ex-Lion Tamer]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

[QUOTE=Bobby-Joe;609067]Atheists demand scientific proof God exists, as if The Bible isn't enough. Well here are six of them.

First off, I'm not an atheist, I'm truly glad you have your faith. At the same time, I don't think you would know science if it stuck its forked tongue up your overly-clenched buttocks. Let's dive in...

#1 First Cause.
There is no first cause without God. As Thomas Aquinas said "Nothing is caused by itself. Every effect has a prior cause. This leads to a regression of events were one thing caused another. Logically this regression has to be terminated by a first cause, which we call "God." God, by definition is the creator of the universe. So in short; the universe has a creator so therefor God exists.

I don't want to be picky here, but quoting a 13th century priest to validate science might be a touch off base. It could even lead soem to think that you *might* not be super hip to the latest science, but hey, screw them - right!

#2 Mountains of Evidence for Intelligent Design
One just has to look at diseases like Malaria, Salmonella and Ebola that kill millions by cunningly turn the bodies defenses against itself to know that there is an intelligence guiding the development of life. Something so insidiously complex as these diseases has to be a creation, not a random event and as we have already PROVEN that the creator is by definition God.

Malaria (and the others mentioned) are definitely scary and hard to understand, but wow - that's your 'go-to' for proof of intelligent design? A parasite that kills 3,000 children A DAY is the best you can do to prove there IS A GOD? I personally would have gone with light bulbs, or maybe my car. My car has a beautiful design, smooth lines, rich corinthian leather...gorgeous.

#3 Personal Observation.
Like many of Christians I have felt the presence of God in my life and heard His voice talking to me. Further more I have survived numerous attempts on my life in my job and escaped contracting AIDs even though I have to have contact with witches. I KNOW God exists.

Okay, now we've taken a turn. You are correct that 'observation' is part of the scientific method, but sadly 'felt the presence' and 'witches' fall more into the non-scientific realm. I'm not saying I haven't felt some witches in my time, or that I'm not thankful that I don't have AIDS, but when God is killing 3,000 children a day of malaria, it feels a little icky to bask in my good fortune.

#4 Heisenberg uncertainty principle
Since we can not prove anything exist in Quantum Mechanics we can't disprove anything. If we can't disprove God existence then logically God has to exist.

This one is 100% accurate - but for me, I would apply it to farts, not God. For instance, if I fart, and it smells really bad (more proof of intelligent design, amaright?), but then when my wife smells it, I say 'I didn't fart'. She knows there is a fart, but she can't prove it, so it must exist.

#5 The Law of Information
The Law of Information states that all coded information is the product of an intelligent being. DNA is such an example of coded information so logically DNA is the proof of an intelligent creator and not random chance. DNA is found in all living things. The only intelligent being capable of placing DNA in all living things is God.

Ouch. You're going to be very disappointed with my answer here. It seems that the Laws (yes, there is an 's') of Information are specifically called out BY DEFINITION as being unscientific. aw whatever, let's go break some laws!

#6 God is the greatest thing Imaginable,
Humans have never been able to imagine anything greater than God. Clearly we must have reason to imagine God. Further more something must be limiting our imaginations or we would come up with something greater than God. The only thing that can limit human imagination is God.

First, why just 6? I mean, this gobbledygook is so lacking in reality, you should have made a 1,000 - you at least would have had a fighting chance at accidentally being right. Anyway...this last one tells me one very clear thing - you have a really limited imagination. That surprises me, since everything you've said is make believe, but here we are. I personally think a dragon that grants wishes and likes to snuggle would be awesome, cause then I can fly places, smite my enemies and still chill with my magical power lizard.

There you have it. I await a random flurry of misspelled words that capture the essence of your emotions, while missing the breadth and wonder of humanity.

Dragon bless you.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Six scientific Extra-Biblical arguments that PROVE God exists

The way someone's observations are treated by others—I've referred to Aquinas in this context in an earlier post—has no bearing on the observations themselves. In this case your 13th century priest was using some stuff from Aristotle, which would be his observation, but whether developed by pagans (Aristotle) or Romish heretics (Aquinas) does not change the facts. Now clearly these could be used to justify temple orgies or ruby-encrusted skeletons respectively according to the arguments cooked up but if the results contradict what God has already revealed, those arguments cannot be considered valid.

ACTS 17
22 Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious …
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands …
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Paul refers to external sources as matters of observation but does not apply arguments used by Aristotle or Epimenides or Democritus or Cleanthes or Epicurus any more than we are going to use the arguments of pagans or heretics ourselves. That doesn't mean we reject their observations. Another example would be germ theories of disease. That malaria exists is a fact. We know that Christians cannot "get" malaria because that is something God has promised. Whatever ways He chooses to use malaria however is a part of His design, otherwise why would he have created malaria in the first place? Without design there can be no malaria.

Let's compare it to your car. Probably made from metal—even if it's a plastic electric job I'm sure there'll still be metals in the motors or batteries—and certain to deteriorate; the wheels will rust or drop off from fatigue, the motors will burn out or blow up, the bodywork will crumble away whatever it's made from and even if it had an everlasting body eventually all the world's oil will run out and the car will be useless. I don't know what Corinthian leather is (I always specify wool for upholstery) but can assure you it's biodegradable and what use is a car without seats? And furthermore how many six-thousand-year-old cars are there? Or chariots? Or jet aircraft for that matter? None. And yet malaria has been around for that long and is still going strong! Clearly it's a better design than your car.

GENESIS 2
1a Thus the heavens and the earth were finished
1b and all the host of them.
2a And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made

God did not come back on Day Eight to make malaria and ebola. There was no Day Nine for leprosy and herpes and brain cancer. This is a point you should consider before launching off on a career denying God, contradicting Him, buying into abstruse theories in an effort to explain away observations clearly pointing to God. It is only through obedience that we avoid such plagues as He has designed. The extra-Biblical material is the fact that Christians do not become diseased. I don't want to seem picky here, but how do you account for that?