The long-term evolution FRAUD

[Pim Pendergast]

Re: The long-term evolution FRAUD

Maybe God did have such a plan if he now truly exists, the thing is though that we all started out as tribesmen in Africa and then we settled around the world where our current genetics and racial traits changed.

We all started out in the Middle East and spread out from there (Genesis 11). And we did not start out as tribesmen. The first generation of humans were farmers (Gen 4:2).

So what I'm trying to say, which many christians also accept, is that "God" may have started it all, he still allowed evolution to happen.

I respect that people believe in Jesus, God, Buddha, Allah or whatever, what I do expect of them though is to acknowledge the very building bricks of our universe, EVEN if "god" created it from the start, and not just brush it all off as "space magic".
You can still believe in God almighty and how he made the world, but it's just idiotic to think that we, as in mankind, can't go on and explain what happened after his creation.

I'm even willing to give you the seed of doubt about what happened before Big bang, maybe it was God clapping his hands, but don't say that stuff like evolution is false just because a 2000 year old book says so.
You have to remember that the very knowledge of ourselves and the universe was severely lacking then and much that we now simply now is natural could be seen as magic.

If evolution is true, the Bible is false, and if the Bible is false, then the omnipotent, omniscient God who claims to have inspired it (2 Tim 3:16) doesn't exist. The theory of evolution doesn't require God to explain how life evolved. It's an explanation of how life evolved through natural selection. And we can't believe the big bang because that would mean the universe is 13.7 billion years old, and it can't be, because if you tally up all the genealogies in the Bible, we find the world is only about 6,000 years old. You want us to be Christians who don't believe the Bible. Not happening.

Like I said, it's fine to be religious but religion have to move past the "everything is magic!"-crossroad.

I thought that's what religion was all about, attributing the unknown to miracles or magic or spirits.

Ok, even if that's true that would not explain species that "magically appeared" after the great man's 6 days of magic.

Dogs did not exist in the beginning, they evolved from wolves with, you guessed it, beneficial mutations which made them a new kind of species.

No new species have appeared since God rested from His creative work. If they have, it would be strong evidence for evolution.

Lets play around with the idea that God's image is that of a black huntsman on the savannahs of Africa, which have characteristics that caucasians, asians or native americans do not posses.
How are these other "races" still in his image?

I'm curious now, what are the requirements to be a part of his image?
Is it like the part you refused to answer me on? a head, two hands and two legs which you can stand on together with intelligence?
Because that does not only apply to human beings but chimpanzee as well, who have proven to be a lot more intelligent than children before they reach the age of 6.
They also have their own language so don't put "the need of a proper speech" here out of the blue.

Being made in the image of God doesn't mean we're all clones. Man is the image of God because, unlike animals, he is a sentient, spiritual being and is second only to God in dominion over the earth (Gen 1:28). That image was tarnished after the Fall, but is being restored in True Christian™ men. You may be interested in this sermon: True Christian™ Man as the spitting image of God.

[WilliamJenningsBryan]

Re: The long-term evolution FRAUD

Mutations are never beneficial? ...What?

I can give you a list of mutations which have been very much so for the survival of the human race, mutations thanks to evolution.

Mutations which have helped human beings survive;
1. The caucasian race developing white skin so that we could absorb vitamin D, which is essential for our kidneys and bone structure.
This was especially important for the tribes moving up to the northern parts of Europe as there aren't as many hours of sun there.

This is why many africans moving up north have such a hard time adapting to the climate, they often have to take pills to increase their amount vitamin D to not get sick.

....

Well that must explain it then, After the Civil War nigra's in the South were predominantly Republicans. It was only after moving into Northern cities like Detroit, Chicago, and New York that the started becoming Democrats and voting Democratic. We all know that Democrats are a disease, and now it can be linked to a vitamin D deficiency.

It's no wonder that there was a movement to ship them all back to Africa - it was for their own good.

[Nihilistenna]

Re: The long-term evolution FRAUD

God has assigned the various races to live in their respective nations.

Maybe God did have such a plan if he now truly exists, the thing is though that we all started out as tribesmen in Africa and then we settled around the world where our current genetics and racial traits changed.

So what I'm trying to say, which many christians also accept, is that "God" may have started it all, he still allowed evolution to happen.

I respect that people believe in Jesus, God, Buddha, Allah or whatever, what I do expect of them though is to acknowledge the very building bricks of our universe, EVEN if "god" created it from the start, and not just brush it all off as "space magic".
You can still believe in God almighty and how he made the world, but it's just idiotic to think that we, as in mankind, can't go on and explain what happened after his creation.

I'm even willing to give you the seed of doubt about what happened before Big bang, maybe it was God clapping his hands, but don't say that stuff like evolution is false just because a 2000 year old book says so.
You have to remember that the very knowledge of ourselves and the universe was severely lacking then and much that we now simply now is natural could be seen as magic.

Like I said, it's fine to be religious but religion have to move past the "everything is magic!"-crossroad.

God probably gave Africans dark skin to keep them out of Europe.

So that's why we all started out as tribesmen on the africa na dmiddle-eastern continent? (well, back then it was a big mishmash of landmasses.)

Then why didn't they just evolve longer eyelashes?

Ask someone specialised in eye-physiology, but my guess is that eyelashes protects better against dust and sand while thicker eyelids helps better in ,say, snowstorms.

Sickle-cell anaemia is a disease. I guess resistance to malaria is beneficial -- if you consider having more Africans in the world beneficial. Besides, disease and death entered the world through sin, not mutations.

You are right, not every mutation is beneficial, or if it is it might still come with several other problems

What colour skin do Eskimos have?

A mix between the native american's redish colour and caucasian white.
It doesn't have to be 100% white to easily absorb vitamin D, anything lighter than black is enough to survive up here without aid.

I suppose going inside during a storm would never cross their minds.

Back then storm protection was very basic. besides, storms could and can last days, that won't stop you from doing everyday activities like hunting or fishing.

I thought mutations supposedly occurred quickly, in the time it takes DNA to make a copy error.

The mutation itself happens "rapidly" in the way that it doesn't even have to be visible on the father or mother that they could bring forth such a mutation, however it still takes years for such mutations to occur and won't just happen in the very first generation.
Let alone to let that mutation become something that defines the species.

The reason we have such a plethora of fauna and flora is because God created them.

Ok, even if that's true that would not explain species that "magically appeared" after the great man's 6 days of magic.

Dogs did not exist in the beginning, they evolved from wolves with, you guessed it, beneficial mutations which made them a new kind of species.

Well, that's not what we see in reality, so no.

What a vague answer. lets play around with the idea that God's image is that of a black huntsman on the savannahs of Africa, which have characteristics that caucasians, asians or native americans do not posses.
How are these other "races" still in his image?

Don't change the rules, I'm curious now, what are the requirements to be a part of his image?
Is it like the part you refused to answer me on? a head, two hands and two legs which you can stand on together with intelligence?
Because that does not only apply to human beings but chimpanzee as well, who have proven to be a lot more intelligent than children before they reach the age of 6.
They also have their own language so don't put "the need of a proper speech" here out of the blue.

[Pim Pendergast]

Re: The long-term evolution FRAUD

Mutations are never beneficial? ...What?

I can give you a list of mutations which have been very much so for the survival of the human race, mutations thanks to evolution.

Mutations which have helped human beings survive;
1. The caucasian race developing white skin so that we could absorb vitamin D, which is essential for our kidneys and bone structure.
This was especially important for the tribes moving up to the northern parts of Europe as there aren't as many hours of sun there.

This is why many africans moving up north have such a hard time adapting to the climate, they often have to take pills to increase their amount vitamin D to not get sick.

God has assigned the various races to live in their respective nations.

Acts 17:26 [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

God probably gave Africans dark skin to keep them out of Europe.

2. The thicker eyelids of eastern asians.
Scientists believe that eastern asians developed thicker eyelids to protect their eyes from different kind of storms.
It's more or less an advanced form of eye lashes.

Then why didn't they just evolve longer eyelashes?

3. Sicklecell, a disease caused by a mutation among Africans which gives them some resistance to Malaria, a mutation we don't have in other parts because of the lack of Malaria in other parts of the world (well, before the global warming anyways.).

Sickle-cell anaemia is a disease. I guess resistance to malaria is beneficial -- if you consider having more Africans in the world beneficial. Besides, disease and death entered the world through sin, not mutations.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

No white skin = the whole of northern Europe would be a wasteland as there would've only been a few tribes filled with people breaking their bones and having their kidneys fail all the time.

What colour skin do Eskimos have?

No thick eyelids = There would certainly still exist people in the eastern parts of Asia but they wouldn't have a very good time.

I suppose going inside during a storm would never cross their minds.

Do note that these mutations took thousands of years to happen, it's not something that happened overnight.

I thought mutations supposedly occurred quickly, in the time it takes DNA to make a copy error.

This also proves that evolution is real as species adapt to their enviroment by mutating.
The whole reason we have different kinds of animals (and humans) from the start is thanks to mutations, just that one mutation that wasn't beneficial to one kind of species was beneficial to the other, which is why we have such a plethora of fauna and flora.

The reason we have such a plethora of fauna and flora is because God created them.

Gen 1:11-12 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:20-21 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24-25 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

If God truly made mankind in his image, wouldn't everybody be of the same race and have the same genetics?

Well, that's not what we see in reality, so no. Please start a thread in the introduction forum and tell us what church you go to, what your favorite Bible verse is and how you came to find Jesus.

Mutations are never beneficial.

[Nihilistenna]

Re: The long-term evolution FRAUD

Mutations are never beneficial? ...What?

I can give you a list of mutations which have been very much so for the survival of the human race, mutations thanks to evolution.

Mutations which have helped human beings survive;
1. The caucasian race developing white skin so that we could absorb vitamin D, which is essential for our kidneys and bone structure.
This was especially important for the tribes moving up to the northern parts of Europe as there aren't as many hours of sun there.

This is why many africans moving up north have such a hard time adapting to the climate, they often have to take pills to increase their amount vitamin D to not get sick.

2. The thicker eyelids of eastern asians.
Scientists believe that eastern asians developed thicker eyelids to protect their eyes from different kind of storms.
It's more or less an advanced form of eye lashes.

3. Sicklecell, a disease caused by a mutation among Africans which gives them some resistance to Malaria, a mutation we don't have in other parts because of the lack of Malaria in other parts of the world (well, before the global warming anyways.).

These are two examples which have helped man adapt to their enviroment, i.e mutations.

No white skin = the whole of northern Europe would be a wasteland as there would've only been a few tribes filled with people breaking their bones and having their kidneys fail all the time.

No thick eyelids = There would certainly still exist people in the eastern parts of Asia but they wouldn't have a very good time.

Do note that these mutations took thousands of years to happen, it's not something that happened overnight.

This also proves that evolution is real as species adapt to their enviroment by mutating.
The whole reason we have different kinds of animals (and humans) from the start is thanks to mutations, just that one mutation that wasn't beneficial to one kind of species was beneficial to the other, which is why we have such a plethora of fauna and flora.

If God truly made mankind in his image, wouldn't everybody be of the same race and have the same genetics?
Or is it maybe that the only requirement that you have a head, two eyes, a nose, a mouth, legs and arms? Because if that's true, aren't other primates, especially the intelligent ones such as chimpanzees, just as much in his image?

[WilliamJenningsBryan]

Re: The long-term evolution FRAUD

Amen! This is the kind of True Christian™ science we need to combat the lies of mainstream liberal science!

Where's the bacteria, Lenski?

If it's E. coli, it probably came from Lenski's rectum - proving only that after over 2 decades of gay sex you just might find some random citrate digesting E. Coli from the stall at the Minneapolis airport.

[Levi Jones]

Re: The long-term evolution FRAUD

Amen! This is the kind of True Christian(tm) science we need to combat the lies of mainstream liberal science!

Where's the bacteria, Lenski?

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: The long-term evolution FRAUD

Well said, brother. Truly inspired.

I would also like to remind everyone that Pastor Billy-Reuben still has his $250,000 challenge going. So far, no takers from the secular liars out there.

[Pim Pendergast]

The E. coli long-term evolution experiment was started in 1988 by evolutionary biologist Richard Lenski. One would think that after 25 years and over 55,000 generations, he would have been able to prove evolution by now. But his greatest finding so far is a group of bacteria that supposedly evolved the ability to digest citrate in the presence of oxygen.

In 2003 he allegedly noticed one of the flasks containing the bacteria had turned cloudy, a sign of population explosion. He claimed the bacteria in this flask were reproducing more rapidly because they had developed the ability to digest citrate, one of the ingredients in the microbial broth. It was claimed that this was not simply a case of natural selection enabling a species to do something better but to do something new. Lenski says he conducted a series of tests to determine when this mutation occurred, thawing out samples from his “fossil record” of frozen bacteria, taken every 500 generations. He claimed that the ability to digest citrate arose from the accumulation of several mutations. Lenski published his findings in 2008 (what took him so long?), after only 14 days of peer review, in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, which has a strong bias toward atheism and evolution. Last year Lenski published another paper supposedly detailing the actual mutations that occurred, which can be summarized as follows.

Chapter One (from generaton zeo to at least generation 20,000): Our hero, E. coli, picks up mutations that don’t seem to have anything to do with feeding on citrate. They might have helped the bacteria grow better on their stingy rations of glucose. At least one of those mutations set the stage for feeding on citrate.

Chapter Two (around generation 31,500): The bacteria accidentally rewire their genome, so that a new copy of citT switches on in the presence of oxygen. Thanks to the mutations of Chapter One, this rewiring yields a modest but important improvement. Now the bacteria can feed a little on citrate, as well as on glucose.

Chapter Three (from about generation 31,500 to 33,000–and beyond): The bacteria make extra copies of the new and improved citT. They can pull in more citrate; new mutations fine-tune their metabolism to grow quickly on the molecule. World domination soon follows.

I have the following objections to Lenski’s findings – if they are true (and that’s a big “if”).

· No new functionality has been added to the cell.
· No new information has been added to the genome; there has only been a loss of pre-existing information.
· Perhaps only one mutation was needed to be able to digest citrate.
· Perhaps the ability to digest citrate was the result of a recessive gene.
· This still doesn’t explain how life came from non-life (abiogenesis).
· Mutations are never beneficial.
· Perhaps the population explosion was caused by contamination with another kind of bacteria that grows on citrate.
· Perhaps the sample was contaminated by another strain of E. coli previously unknown to science that could digest citrate.
· People like Dawkins and Coyne, who have written about Lenski’s findings, don’t define what they mean by “evolution,” whether they mean “microevolution,” or variation within a kind, which happens, or “macroevolution,” the origin of new species, which can’t happen.
· The bacteria are still bringing forth after their own kind, proving the Bible right (Gen 1:20). If evolution were true, a new species would have developed by now.
· As intelligent-design proponent Michael Behe said, “If the development of many of the features of the cell required multiple mutations during the course of evolution, then the cell is beyond Darwinian explanation" (The Edge of Evolution).
· There is a lot of missing data in Lenski’s 2008 paper. http://www.conservapedia.com/Richard_Lenski
· The findings of the study may well be fraudulent because Lenski refuses to give away samples of the bacteria so that Creationists can verify the results for themselves.

The Lenskigate affair began in mid-2008, when Andy Schlafly, founder of Conservapedia, wrote to Lenski politely asking him to supply the data for his findings. Lenski evaded Schlafly’s request, referring him to his website and to the paper itself. Much discussion ensued on the Conservapedia talk page. One man suggested Lenski should send Conservapedia some of the bacteria in the post so that they could conduct their own study. Schlafly ended up writing to Lenski again. Lenski’s rude, arrogant refusal to meet Schlafly’s demands can be found here: http://www.conservapedia.com/Conserv...:Lenski_dialog

In short, all we have is Lenski’s word that some of his bacteria have evolved the ability to digest citrate in the absence of oxygen due to the accumulation of mutations over many generations. Lenski also claims other, less significant changes have taken place. The actual evidence, the bacteria themselves, are supposedly locked away in Lenski’s lab. He won’t share them with anyone. But why not, if his findings are accurate? What is he afraid of? Does he even have the bacteria? Here’s a picture of the colonies of E. coli involved in the experiment.



How do we know these flasks aren’t just filled with water? Do any of these flasks look cloudy to you? Over the years, many discoveries thought to support evolution (such as Piltdown Man and Nebraska Man and… well, that’s about it actually) have been proven to be fraudulent. Don’t be fooled by the long-term evolution experiment.