[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

If we have even limited free will then how can god be all knowing?

If he knows what we are going to do before we do it then that can not be free will as it is already pre ordained that we will do it.

Quote your source. There isn't one, because even in secular science, there are entire branches of study dedicated to predicting and interpreting human behavior. You secularists can argue "nature versus nurture" until the cows come home, but it has no effect on God's omniscience. He already knows what choices you will make through your free will, and he does indeed hold you responsible for each and every one. I think that's what tweaks you guys off the most -- that someone higher than you holds you morally responsible for all of your actions.

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Quote your source. There isn't one, because even in secular science, there are entire branches of study dedicated to predicting and interpreting human behavior. You secularists can argue "nature versus nurture" until the cows come home, but it has no effect on God's omniscience. He already knows what choices you will make through your free will, and he does indeed hold you responsible for each and every one. I think that's what tweaks you guys off the most -- that someone higher than you holds you morally responsible for all of your actions.

Who are you calling a secularist?
I am a Pastafarian.
I give no more credence to the so called scientists then you do, they are mere toys of the FSM, toys that he like to play with as it amuses him.
I maintain that God, and our creator, IS The Flying Spaghetti Monster,
The creator made us for his pleasure.
There is no pleasure to be drawn from us if we do not have free will.
As how can he derive pleasure from our existence if he already knows what we are going to do?

If "He already knows what choices you will make" how can that be called free will?

[Miss April]

Re: The Holy Noodle

You are only jealous because my book is more fun to read then yours, and they is no evidence that your version of events is more accurate then ours.

You stupid fool i'm not jealous of anything The King James Bible is the only Truth i need and its tons of fun to read its my Favorite Book wouldn't you like you know Jesus? you know he wants to be your friend There is evidence in Our version you just can't see it because you follow the devil

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

There is no pleasure to be drawn from us if we do not have free will.

If "He already knows what choices you will make" how can that be called free will?

Quote your sources for assertion 1, and for assumption 2 (that free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive).

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Quote your sources for assertion 1, and for assumption 2 (that free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive).

Why do I need to quote any sources when I can think for myself, and use logic.
I ask again if a God KNOWS before hand what choice you will make then how can that be considered free will as the outcome is already known to him.

You have to choice between option A and option B.
God already knows you will choose option B
If that is true, then it would be imposable for you to choose option A.
Therefore if God already knows the outcome you have no free will.

I maintain we have free will therefore our Creator does not know the outcome, and is being amused as he watches how what he created turns out.

If he already knew what was going to happen it would not be very entertaining for him now would it?

If he sees things going totally SNAFU then he may decide to point us in the right direction, like he did with Pirate Mosey when he spoke to him on top of Mount Salsa and gave him the "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" or he may not, depending in what sort of mood he is in at the time, and how heavily he has been hitting the Beer Volcano.

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Because you are not God, and thinking for yourself can get you into trouble.

If I see a crackhead trying to quit, and I toss him an eightball, then I know he is going to light up, despite his willingness to quit. He has free will, and I have foreknowledge. My foreknowledge trumps his freewill, because I know him better than he knows himself.

If you want to argue if he (or any man) has free will, then go for it. You guys have been doing it for thousands of years, and it doesn't matter to me or God. As mentioned earlier, God's foreknowledge trumps your free will, because God knows you better than you know yourself. He is smart enough to figure out what you are going to do before you do it. If you feel that that infringes upon your free will, then too bad for you. You can complain to God about it at your final judgment.
Jeremiah 1

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

I go back to....

PROPOSTION 7. The creator made us for his pleasure.
PROPOSTION 8. There is no pleasure to be drawn from us if we do not have free will.
CONCLUSION 12. We have free will
PROPOSTION 9. If the universe was premeditated, then we would not have free will.
CONCLUSION 13. The universe is not premeditated.
PROPOSTION 10. The creator set up the initial conditions of the universe.
CONCLUSION 14. By C13, there is uncertainty in the unfolding of the universe.
CONCLUSION 15. As uncertainty on top of uncertainty brings even more uncertainty, as time passes, the level of uncertainty increases.

If our creator knows the outcome why would he bother in the first place? And why should we worry about what we do as we were going to do it anyway?

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

I go back to....

PROPOSTION 7. The creator made us for his pleasure.
PROPOSTION 8. There is no pleasure to be drawn from us if we do not have free will.
CONCLUSION 12. We have free will
PROPOSTION 9. If the universe was premeditated, then we would not have free will.
CONCLUSION 13. The universe is not premeditated.
PROPOSTION 10. The creator set up the initial conditions of the universe.
CONCLUSION 14. By C13, there is uncertainty in the unfolding of the universe.
CONCLUSION 15. As uncertainty on top of uncertainty brings even more uncertainty, as time passes, the level of uncertainty increases.

If our creator knows the outcome why would he bother in the first place? And why should we worry about what we do as we were going to do it anyway?

Because your "proposition 8" is total BS. One more time, I am asking for a source. You are making an extraordinary claim, and that demands some proof. Artist, engineers, programmers, composers, and architects create all kinds of things all of the time with the precise purpose that the outcome be exactly as they had hoped. In fact an unexpected outcome more often than not RUINS the experience.

So put up or shut up. Prove your prop 8, that God's foreknowledge trumping our freewill invalids any and all pleasure God might receive from His creation. Because you are just vainly repeating yourself now, going in circles, turning into a troll.

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Because your "proposition 8" is total BS. One more time, I am asking for a source. You are making an extraordinary claim, and that demands some proof. Artist, engineers, programmers, composers, and architects create all kinds of things all of the time with the precise purpose that the outcome be exactly as they had hoped. In fact an unexpected outcome more often than not RUINS the experience.

So put up or shut up. Prove your prop 8, that God's foreknowledge trumping our freewill invalids any and all pleasure God might receive from His creation. Because you are just vainly repeating yourself now, going in circles, turning into a troll.

But by your logic I have no option to do otherwise, as you must also keep repeating yourself in not accepting that a person can think for themselves and does not need to give sources, you only ever give one source yourself, one that I do not accept.

Would you go to a football match if you new the final score before you bought your ticket?
What is the enjoyment of reading a book if you know how it ends... Oh sorry bad example you only read the one book.
There are many artists who do not know how they work will turn out, are you going to tell me that Jackson Pollock new before he started what the end result of his work would look like?

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

But by your logic I have no option to do otherwise, as you must also keep repeating yourself in not accepting that a person can think for themselves and does not need to give sources, you only ever give one source yourself, one that I do not accept.

Would you go to a football match if you new the final score before you bought your ticket?
What is the enjoyment of reading a book if you know how it ends... Oh sorry bad example you only read the one book.
There are many artists who do not know how they work will turn out, are you going to tell me that Jackson Pollock new before he started what the end result of his work would look like?

It doesn't matter what you think. If you can't come to grips with God's omniscience, then that's your loss. If you can't come to grips that man is predicable, then you will be an easy mark for humanists and you lose there as well. Basically you are in the worst of both worlds, a fool in God's eyes and a fool in men's eyes, with nothing to comfort you except a weak and unsourced mantra and a plate of spaghetti that you worship.

Bon appetit!

[Levi Jones]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Sorry to jump in here, but this has been one of the most savage beatings of a noodle since Onan.

Well done, Dr. Goldman.

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

It doesn't matter what you think. If you can't come to grips with God's omniscience, then that's your loss. If you can't come to grips that man is predicable, then you will be an easy mark for humanists and you lose there as well. Basically you are in the worst of both worlds, a fool in God's eyes and a fool in men's eyes, with nothing to comfort you except a weak and unsourced mantra and a plate of spaghetti that you worship.

Bon appetit!

I agree that our creator is all seeing, but I feel that like us he would find thing much more enjoyable if they were a few surprises along the way, otherwise it would be very boring to be God. If a being is going to go to all the effort of creation they are going to want some enjoyment as payback.

I am much happier with a god that want to have fun then the one described in your book who appears to think fun is a bad thing.

Now I know you could not give a fettered dingo's kidney whether I am happy or not, I just give the Pastafarian version of creation to show others that our view of the creator is a lot more fun then yours.

[Levi Jones]

Re: The Holy Noodle

I agree that our creator is all seeing, but I feel..

Noodlehead propaganda deleted.

Have fun with that one, Dr. G.

[David Goldman]

Re: The Holy Noodle

I agree that our creator is all seeing, but I feel that like us he would find thing much more enjoyable if they were a few surprises along the way,

And there you go.

Romans 11

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Luckily He isn't paying you $120/hr for counseling sessions


However, having said that . . .
1 Corinthians 2:16

16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

True Christians™, having the mind of Christ, can make some educated guesses as to how God thinks. And one of my guesses is that God derives some pleasure from tossing heathen spaghetti worshipers into the big boiling grease vat in the middle of the Earth. But that's just my guess, for what it is worth

[Jo Freddie]

Re: The Holy Noodle

Luckily He isn't paying you $120/hr for counseling sessions

Any shrink taking on a client with the problems your "god" has would charge a lot more then that

True Christians™, having the mind of Christ, can make some educated guesses as to how God thinks. And one of my guesses is that God derives some pleasure from tossing heathen spaghetti worshipers into the big boiling grease vat in the middle of the Earth. But that's just my guess, for what it is worth

Can't be any fun if he already knew he was tossing me in there,in fact if he is Omnipercipient then as far as he is concerned I am already BBQ Pasta. If that is the case why should I bother to be anything other then what I am? is there even the remotest possibility that I could be anything else even if I thought I wanted to be?

He sounds more like Phil the Night manager then a real god