Simply a curious, taken back fellow

[Kusnierek]

Hello, all. Greetings to you all, and may God bless you all. I would like to make one thing known from the start:

I am Catholic (And no, we don't worship Mary).

Whoa, whoa! Keep your finger off that ban stick long enough to hear me out, please. I've noticed a lot of hate and aggressiveness on these boards, simply from skimming over the top. I'm curious to know why you believe that God is all merciful and forgiving, yet show so much hate for people who do not share you beliefs. Shouldn't we all get along an PEACEFULLY try to explain every side of the story without resorting to insults?

If you decide to a) not ban me, and b) not keep me here simply as an object of ridicule; I would be happy to attempt to explain some of the misconceptions about the Catholic faith, if you're overly curious. There's nothing wrong with questioning one's beliefs or even questioning God, if you are in good faith and simply want an answer.

Please, please be gentle and kind with your replies, if it suits you.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

Hello, all. Greetings to you all, and may God bless you all. I would like to make one thing known from the start:

I am Catholic (And no, we don't worship Mary).

Why do you worship the Pope?

Whoa, whoa! Keep your finger off that ban stick long enough to hear me out, please.

No problem. As long as there's a chance of saving you from your idolatrous cult, we will be only too happy to allow you to stay.

I've noticed a lot of hate and aggressiveness on these boards, simply from skimming over the top. I'm curious to know why you believe that God is all merciful and forgiving, yet show so much hate for people who do not share you beliefs. Shouldn't we all get along an PEACEFULLY try to explain every side of the story without resorting to insults?

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Our Church = the temple of God, your statues of Mary = idols.

If you decide to a) not ban me, and b) not keep me here simply as an object of ridicule; I would be happy to attempt to explain some of the misconceptions about the Catholic faith, if you're overly curious. There's nothing wrong with questioning one's beliefs or even questioning God, if you are in good faith and simply want an answer.

There are quite a few questions we'd like answers to. What do you make of this thread?

[Kusnierek]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

Pope: We do not. We worship God the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit. All of them tied together in the Trinity we simply refer to as "God." If you're talking about the "Call no man father" thing, we consider this to mean that you should look to no other god as your creator. In fact, we consider the entire Old Testament to be interpreted text. Not to be taken literally, but figuratively as writers of that time (and indeed our own time) liked to do.

I'd also like to point out that there is absolutely no way I am abandoning my church or converting, so I hope this doesn't impede upon our discussion.

As for statues as idols, we don't worship the statues or give sacrifices upon them or anything. Statues are just that: physical representations of people that existed. Would you say that no statues of any person should be made? Perhaps no photos should be taken of people, since it captures their image the same as a statue? Art is art, and religion is religion. While we do keep art in our churches, we dissociate them with religion.


As for the anti-Catholicism thread, I find it quite overwhelming. I am nothing but a nineteen year old boy who is trying to defend his faith. If you could bring up a couple topics, in moderation I might be able to focus on one or two things to (try, at least) explain, but I cannot do ten things at once, I'm afraid.

And thanks for hearing me out.

[Nobar King]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

I don't think you could have read that whole thread in 15 mins.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

Pope: We do not. We worship God the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit. All of them tied together in the Trinity we simply refer to as "God." If you're talking about the "Call no man father" thing, we consider this to mean that you should look to no other god as your creator. In fact, we consider the entire Old Testament to be interpreted text.

That verse is from the New Testament. How exactly do you get "call no other god your creator" from "call no man father"? Wouldn't it be simpler to just say "Don't worship other gods" (as the Bible does indeed say numerous times, in perfectly clear language)?

I'd also like to point out that there is absolutely no way I am abandoning my church or converting, so I hope this doesn't impede upon our discussion.

What a shame. I am tempted to ban you at once, but I shall continue to pray that Jesus enters your heart and shows you the error of your ways instead.

As for statues as idols, we don't worship the statues or give sacrifices upon them or anything.

Do you pray to Mary? Do you bow down before her image?

As for the anti-Catholicism thread, I find it quite overwhelming. I am nothing but a nineteen year old boy who is trying to defend his faith.

It's intended to be overwhelming. If it didn't overwhelm Satan's stooges, it wouldn't be serving its purpose. Nevertheless, just to start off with:
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

1) It is devilish to forbid God's people to marry when He has given marriage to be received with thanksgiving.

1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2) Peter was married (remember the pope is supposedly continuing the apostolic line through Peter).

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Mark
1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.

Luke
4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

3) Paul, a great apostle, remained single; however he made it very clear that he could marry if he wanted to.

1 Corinthians
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

How do you explain these contradictions?

[Kusnierek]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

We DO pray to Mary, but we don't believe that is the same as worship. To pray is nothing more than to petition, or to talk to someone. We ask Mary and the other people in Heaven to pray for us, as we ourselves pray for others. Because our community on Earth shouldn't be dissociated with the community in Heaven. Dont you ask people to pray for you? Don't you pray for other people? All we do is ask Mark and the Saints to pray for us, as well.

As for the marriage bit, priests choose not to marry a person, because they decide to follow Christ and marry the Church. As Christ died on the cross after setting up the Church, he was marrying himself to her (the Church). This rule is, as you say, a rule created by the Pope and not God. Meaning that the Pope could, if he wanted, repeal it and allow Catholic priests to marry. Remember what Jesus said to Peter, "Your name means Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church." Also, "What you bind on Earth, I will bind in Heaven. What you loose on Earth, I will loose in Heaven." The papacy has direct lineage from Peter, so each Pope has this ability.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

Whoa, whoa! Keep your finger off that ban stick long enough to hear me out, please. I've noticed a lot of hate and aggressiveness on these boards, simply from skimming over the top. I'm curious to know why you believe that God is all merciful and forgiving, yet show so much hate for people who do not share you beliefs. Shouldn't we all get along an PEACEFULLY try to explain every side of the story without resorting to insults?

Friend,

Could you show were we state we believe God is all merciful and forgiving? The existence of Hell clearly shows God does not offer universal, unconditional forgiveness. Our position is God loves justice and His chosen elect.

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

If you're talking about the "Call no man father" thing, we consider this to mean that you should look to no other god as your creator. In fact, we consider the entire Old Testament to be interpreted text. Not to be taken literally, but figuratively as writers of that time (and indeed our own time) liked to do.

So what you're saying then is that God, instead of just laying everything down in clear, easy to understand language, likes to play games with salvation, and whoever correctly guesses what He really means gets to go to Heaven?

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

In fact, we consider the entire Old Testament to be interpreted text. Not to be taken literally, but figuratively as writers of that time (and indeed our own time) liked to do.

Do you have any evidence that "writers of that time ... liked to do" what you say they liked to do? On that matter, what do you make of this thread?

As for statues as idols, we don't worship the statues or give sacrifices upon them or anything. Statues are just that: physical representations of people that existed. Would you say that no statues of any person should be made? Perhaps no photos should be taken of people, since it captures their image the same as a statue? Art is art, and religion is religion. While we do keep art in our churches, we dissociate them with religion.

Why do Romanists kneel before those statues and light candles while praying to the "saints"? We can appreciate art; in fact, the almost-True Christians™ at Bob Jones University have a lovely collection of religious art. What we don't do is kneel and light candles in front of them.

We DO pray to Mary, but we don't believe that is the same as worship. To pray is nothing more than to petition, or to talk to someone. We ask Mary and the other people in Heaven to pray for us, as we ourselves pray for others. Because our community on Earth shouldn't be dissociated with the community in Heaven. Dont you ask people to pray for you? Don't you pray for other people? All we do is ask Mark and the Saints to pray for us, as well.

Then explain this verse:

1 Tim. 2:5: For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

As for the marriage bit, priests choose not to marry a person, because they decide to follow Christ and marry the Church. As Christ died on the cross after setting up the Church, he was marrying himself to her (the Church). This rule is, as you say, a rule created by the Pope and not God. Meaning that the Pope could, if he wanted, repeal it and allow Catholic priests to marry.

According to 1 Tim. 3:2, a bishop must be the "husband of one wife." Does His Unholiness have the power to contradict the Word of God?

Remember what Jesus said to Peter, "Your name means Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church." Also, "What you bind on Earth, I will bind in Heaven. What you loose on Earth, I will loose in Heaven." The papacy has direct lineage from Peter, so each Pope has this ability.

How do you know that the papacy has direct lineage from Peter? The papacy's say-so doesn't count.

[Kusnierek]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

Heaven. It's a choice. We can choose to go to Heaven, if we want. We can choose to go to Hell, too. By rejecting God's way all our life, when we pass judgment, the slender of God might shame one into rejecting Heaven, out of guilt for their crimes. So, they choose Hell, a place of guilt, loneliness, and self-torture. We don't believe it to necessarily be a place of burning flames with demons and pitchforks. After all, God loves us enough to give us free will, right? If we choose to reject God and his way throughout our lives, God honors our decision and gives us a place to go where there is no God.

And another thing you have to realize is that the Bible was made by PEOPLE. People who make mistakes. People who write in different ways than we can always understand. The writings were indeed divinely inspired, and that is why the early Church (Around 400 years AFTER Jesus died) decided to combine them into a book. Of course, there are OTHER divine scriptures that simply didn't make it into the Bible. This is why the Church relies on the Bible as a good source of information, but we also keep to traditions. So when you say "Where in the Bible does it say that?" just know that we don't limit ourselves simply to one book.

[Brother V]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

How do you know that the papacy has direct lineage from Peter? The papacy's say-so doesn't count.

Brother Pastor,

It's kind of hard to have "lineage" when the Pope's aren't married.

(Unless the cathylicks came up with a way to get altar boys to have children)

[Kusnierek]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4. St. Clement I (88-97)
5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) -- also called Xystus I
8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
10. St. Pius I (140-155)
11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
12. St. Soter (166-175)
13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
14. St. Victor I (189-199)
15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
16. St. Callistus I (217-22)
17. St. Urban I (222-30)
18. St. Pontain (230-35)
19. St. Anterus (235-36)
20. St. Fabian (236-50)
21. St. Cornelius (251-53)
22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
23. St. Stephen I (254-257)
24. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
25. St. Dionysius (260-268)
26. St. Felix I (269-274)
27. St. Eutychian (275-283)
28. St. Caius (283-296) -- also called Gaius
29. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
30. St. Marcellus I (308-309)
31. St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
32. St. Miltiades (311-14)
33. St. Sylvester I (314-35)
34. St. Marcus (336)
35. St. Julius I (337-52)
36. Liberius (352-66)
37. St. Damasus I (366-83)
38. St. Siricius (384-99)
39. St. Anastasius I (399-401)
40. St. Innocent I (401-17)
41. St. Zosimus (417-18)
42. St. Boniface I (418-22)
43. St. Celestine I (422-32)
44. St. Sixtus III (432-40)
45. St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
46. St. Hilarius (461-68)
47. St. Simplicius (468-83)
48. St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
49. St. Gelasius I (492-96)
50. Anastasius II (496-98)
51. St. Symmachus (498-514)
52. St. Hormisdas (514-23)
53. St. John I (523-26)
54. St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
55. Boniface II (530-32)
56. John II (533-35)
57. St. Agapetus I (535-36) -- also called Agapitus I
58. St. Silverius (536-37)
59. Vigilius (537-55)
60. Pelagius I (556-61)
61. John III (561-74)
62. Benedict I (575-79)
63. Pelagius II (579-90)
64. St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
65. Sabinian (604-606)
66. Boniface III (607)
67. St. Boniface IV (608-15)
68. St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
69. Boniface V (619-25)
70. Honorius I (625-38)
71. Severinus (640)
72. John IV (640-42)
73. Theodore I (642-49)
74. St. Martin I (649-55)
75. St. Eugene I (655-57)
76. St. Vitalian (657-72)
77. Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
78. Donus (676-78)
79. St. Agatho (678-81)
80. St. Leo II (682-83)
81. St. Benedict II (684-85)
82. John V (685-86)
83. Conon (686-87)
84. St. Sergius I (687-701)
85. John VI (701-05)
86. John VII (705-07)
87. Sisinnius (708)
88. Constantine (708-15)
89. St. Gregory II (715-31)
90. St. Gregory III (731-41)
91. St. Zachary (741-52)
92. Stephen II (752) -- Because he died before being consecrated, some lists (including the Vatican's official list) omit him.
93. Stephen III (752-57)
94. St. Paul I (757-67)
95. Stephen IV (767-72)
96. Adrian I (772-95)
97. St. Leo III (795-816)
98. Stephen V (816-17)
99. St. Paschal I (817-24)
100. Eugene II (824-27)
101. Valentine (827)
102. Gregory IV (827-44)
103. Sergius II (844-47)
104. St. Leo IV (847-55)
105. Benedict III (855-58)
106. St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
107. Adrian II (867-72)
108. John VIII (872-82)
109. Marinus I (882-84)
110. St. Adrian III (884-85)
111. Stephen VI (885-91)
112. Formosus (891-96)
113. Boniface VI (896)
114. Stephen VII (896-97)
115. Romanus (897)
116. Theodore II (897)
117. John IX (898-900)
118. Benedict IV (900-03)
119. Leo V (903)
120. Sergius III (904-11)
121. Anastasius III (911-13)
122. Lando (913-14)
123. John X (914-28)
124. Leo VI (928)
125. Stephen VIII (929-31)
126. John XI (931-35)
127. Leo VII (936-39)
128. Stephen IX (939-42)
129. Marinus II (942-46)
130. Agapetus II (946-55)
131. John XII (955-63)
132. Leo VIII (963-64)
133. Benedict V (964)
134. John XIII (965-72)
135. Benedict VI (973-74)
136. Benedict VII (974-83)
137. John XIV (983-84)
138. John XV (985-96)
139. Gregory V (996-99)
140. Sylvester II (999-1003)
141. John XVII (1003)
142. John XVIII (1003-09)
143. Sergius IV (1009-12)
144. Benedict VIII (1012-24)
145. John XIX (1024-32)
146. Benedict IX (1032-45) Benedict IX appears on this list three separate times, because he was twice removed and restored (see below)
147. Sylvester III (1045) -- Considered by some to be an antipope
148. Benedict IX (1045)
149. Gregory VI (1045-46)
150. Clement II (1046-47)
151. Benedict IX (1047-48)
152. Damasus II (1048)
153. St. Leo IX (1049-54)
154. Victor II (1055-57)
155. Stephen X (1057-58)
156. Nicholas II (1058-61)
157. Alexander II (1061-73)
158. St. Gregory VII (1073-85)
159. Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
160. Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
161. Paschal II (1099-1118)
162. Gelasius II (1118-19)
163. Callistus II (1119-24)
164. Honorius II (1124-30)
165. Innocent II (1130-43)
166. Celestine II (1143-44)
167. Lucius II (1144-45)
168. Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
169. Anastasius IV (1153-54)
170. Adrian IV (1154-59)
171. Alexander III (1159-81)
172. Lucius III (1181-85)
173. Urban III (1185-87)
174. Gregory VIII (1187)
175. Clement III (1187-91)
176. Celestine III (1191-98)
177. Innocent III (1198-1216)
178. Honorius III (1216-27)
179. Gregory IX (1227-41)
180. Celestine IV (1241)
181. Innocent IV (1243-54)
182. Alexander IV (1254-61)
183. Urban IV (1261-64)
184. Clement IV (1265-68)
185. Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
186. Blessed Innocent V (1276)
187. Adrian V (1276)
188. John XXI (1276-77)
189. Nicholas III (1277-80)
190. Martin IV (1281-85)
191. Honorius IV (1285-87)
192. Nicholas IV (1288-92)
193. St. Celestine V (1294)
194. Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
195. Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
196. Clement V (1305-14)
197. John XXII (1316-34)
198. Benedict XII (1334-42)
199. Clement VI (1342-52)
200. Innocent VI (1352-62)
201. Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
202. Gregory XI (1370-78)
203. Urban VI (1378-89)
204. Boniface IX (1389-1404)
205. Innocent VII (1404-06)
206. Gregory XII (1406-15)
207. Martin V (1417-31)
208. Eugene IV (1431-47)
209. Nicholas V (1447-55)
210. Callistus III (1455-58)
211. Pius II (1458-64)
212. Paul II (1464-71)
213. Sixtus IV (1471-84)
214. Innocent VIII (1484-92)
215. Alexander VI (1492-1503)
216. Pius III (1503)
217. Julius II (1503-13)
218. Leo X (1513-21)
219. Adrian VI (1522-23)
220. Clement VII (1523-34)
221. Paul III (1534-49)
222. Julius III (1550-55)
223. Marcellus II (1555)
224. Paul IV (1555-59)
225. Pius IV (1559-65)
226. St. Pius V (1566-72)
227. Gregory XIII (1572-85)
228. Sixtus V (1585-90)
229. Urban VII (1590)
230. Gregory XIV (1590-91)
231. Innocent IX (1591)
232. Clement VIII (1592-1605)
233. Leo XI (1605)
234. Paul V (1605-21)
235. Gregory XV (1621-23)
236. Urban VIII (1623-44)
237. Innocent X (1644-55)
238. Alexander VII (1655-67)
239. Clement IX (1667-69)
240. Clement X (1670-76)
241. Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
242. Alexander VIII (1689-91)
243. Innocent XII (1691-1700)
244. Clement XI (1700-21)
245. Innocent XIII (1721-24)
246. Benedict XIII (1724-30)
247. Clement XII (1730-40)
248. Benedict XIV (1740-58)
249. Clement XIII (1758-69)
250. Clement XIV (1769-74)
251. Pius VI (1775-99)
252. Pius VII (1800-23)
253. Leo XII (1823-29)
254. Pius VIII (1829-30)
255. Gregory XVI (1831-46)
256. Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
257. Leo XIII (1878-1903)
258. St. Pius X (1903-14)
     
259. Benedict XV (1914-22)
260. Pius XI (1922-39)
261. Pius XII (1939-58)
262. Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
263. Paul VI (1963-78)
264. John Paul I (1978)
265. John Paul II (1978-2005)
266. Benedict XVI (2005—)

Sorry about the horribly long list. As for some of the other questions, I do not know exactly the answers to them, and don't want to say anything that might contradict Catholic canon. If I had a priest with me, I'm sure I could provide better answers, but I'm afraid that I do not. The amazing thing about our fath is that not everything can be known about it. We must continue to learn throughout our lives. How fun. At any rate, I'm afraid that I have to go for now (as I am currently sitting in my Calculus II class, and have to work later), but I thank you for your, albeit limited, hospitality. I may be back, if it is allowed.

God Bless.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

We don't believe it to necessarily be a place of burning flames with demons and pitchforks.

Jesus did:

Matt. 25:41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels....

And another thing you have to realize is that the Bible was made by PEOPLE. People who make mistakes. People who write in different ways than we can always understand. The writings were indeed divinely inspired, and that is why the early Church (Around 400 years AFTER Jesus died) decided to combine them into a book. Of course, there are OTHER divine scriptures that simply didn't make it into the Bible. This is why the Church relies on the Bible as a good source of information, but we also keep to traditions. So when you say "Where in the Bible does it say that?" just know that we don't limit ourselves simply to one book.

Then I guess you think God was lying when He promised to preserve His words:

Psalm 12:6-7: The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

As for that list, what is your source?

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

And another thing you have to realize is that the Bible was made by PEOPLE. People who make mistakes.

First God was having us play guessing games for salvation, now He's allowing His Holy Word, the very text our immortal souls rely on to avoid eternal damnation, to be riddled with mistakes? You, sir, are of Satan, and I reject you!

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Simply a curious, taken back fellow

Son, everything you need to know about the Catholics, from their worship of Dagon, the Fish-head, to the fact that the current pope is SATAN Himself, is right here. Posting a list of 266 homosexuals who, by definition cannot have a lineage to JESUS and who are chosen by a vote. you VOTE on who you think can talk to God. This time you have chosen a Nazi who took an oath to serve his country and then ran away. That's SATAN leading you Mary-worshipers straight into HELL just as prophecy tells us.

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/

Read it and try to deny it. You can't. Enjoy being rolled in a taco and grilled for Satan's lunch for eternity at the Quizno's Down Below (No not Australia).