[winstonthewhiner]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

Wrong. The account of creation as given by God in Genesis is complete.

Now you are just making stuff up without any evidence.

I don't interpret, but I read the Word of God and understand it...and my understanding comes through faith

If it is not literally in there, it is your interpretation.

We as people are free to disobey, and suffer the consequences. The reasons we True Christians™ choose to obey are many.

Interesting. Since the only reason actually valid to you seems to be free will, I find it interesting that you still find worshipping out of fear, not free will worthwhile.

What good is it to be God unless you have lesser beings groveling at your feet?

As a very mighty being that can do almost anything, the thing you come up with is making up some inferior mammals for the sake of having yourself worshipped? And it isn't enough to force them too, they have to do it willingly? I think that's an extremely pathetic thing to do with omnipotence during eternity. And that it seems worthwhile to you, too, doesn't exactly raise my opinion of you...

Yes, God could've put the trees of knowledge and of life in a hidden/inaccessible place, but that would not have made for an interesting scenario, now would it?

Blablabla. Please don't post unless you have anything to say.

Your lack of meaningful response here signals my victory.

No it signifies that you are posting a lot of stuff you have jsut made up or that other people have just made up.

The proof that hell exists is in the Bible. The Bible stating something exists is better even than seeing it for yourself.

Please look up the meaning of the word empirical.

Until you realize the Word of God is true, and all else is suspect, you are living in darkness and will end up in hell. Simple as that.

Nope, I am living a very happy life and at an old age, I will look back with joy, having tasted the riches this world offers, having made mistakes, yes, but none great enough to damage my integrity (at least that's the current state of affairs) and then I will die. My physical bodyfunctions will cease, everything will go dark and then it will be over. Nothing more after that.

[Mark L. Snyde, PhD]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

As long as it is not ruled out explicitly, it is not ruled out.

Wrong. The account of creation as given by God in Genesis is complete.

What you say is just your interpretation and nothing more.

I don't interpret, but I read the Word of God and understand it...and my understanding comes through faith:

Hebrews 11:6 (1611 King James Bible)

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for hee that commeth to God, must beleeue that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seeke him.

Perhaps you care to read that here:

We as people are free to disobey, and suffer the consequences. The reasons we True Christians™ choose to obey are many.

perhaps you caer to explain why such a mighty being as god wants to be worshipped? Is he an egomaniac?

What good is it to be God unless you have lesser beings groveling at your feet?

Anyway, I really like Douglas Adams, and he summed the whole sin blabla up pretty well: 'Your god person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like, guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise, surprise, they eat it and he leaps from behind a bush shouting "Gotcha" It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it.' 'Why not?' 'Because if you're dealing with somebody that leaves hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end.

Yes, God could've put the trees of knowledge and of life in a hidden/inaccessible place, but that would not have made for an interesting scenario, now would it?

Yes it does. Otherwise he's not the universal creator of everything, but had a competitor. Or he screwed up. Or he doesn't exist.

You obviously did not read what I posted.

He ate an apple, for god's sake. That's all he did. Don't make more of it then it is.

He disobeyed a direct commandment from God...I could not make more of it, that's as bad as it gets.

I enjoy a good fairy tale. A good!!!!! fairy tale.

Your lack of meaningful response here signals my victory.

Again, there is no empirical evidence of hell, and I can't end up someplace that does not exist.

The proof that hell exists is in the Bible. The Bible stating something exists is better even than seeing it for yourself.

Until you realize the Word of God is true, and all else is suspect, you are living in darkness and will end up in hell. Simple as that.

[Didymus Much]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

...perhaps you caer to explain why such a mighty being as god wants to be worshipped? Is he an egomaniac?...

Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:"

[winstonthewhiner]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

The Bible implicitly rules out the existence of life elsewhere by not mentioning it in the all-inclusive account of creation. Everything that God created is accounted for in Genesis.

As long as it is not ruled out explicitly, it is not ruled out. What you say is just your interpretation and nothing more.

God created man with free will. What good is being worshiped by automatons that are simply programmed to worship and obey. This would be meaningless. Would you rather be loved by a wife that chooses to love you of her own free will, or one that has been programmed to love you? Which would be more meaningful to you?

Perhaps you care to read that here:

Just the thought frightens me back into obedience to our sweet and loving savoir Jesus.

No worshipping out of free will. It is fear that keeps you doing it.

perhaps you caer to explain why such a mighty being as god wants to be worshipped? Is he an egomaniac? Anyway, I really like Douglas Adams, and he summed the whole sin blabla up pretty well: 'Your god person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like, guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise, surprise, they eat it and he leaps from behind a bush shouting "Gotcha" It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it.' 'Why not?' 'Because if you're dealing with somebody that leaves hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end.

It is plain that for some reason God has permitted sin to enter this world, and that is all we know. His permitting it, however, in no way makes God the author of sin.

Yes it does. Otherwise he's not the universal creator of everything, but had a competitor. Or he screwed up. Or he doesn't exist.

(1) the sin of unbelief, virtually making God a liar; and (2) the guilt of disobedience to a positive command

He ate an apple, for god's sake. That's all he did. Don't make more of it then it is.

Blablabla ...... a lot of nonsense

I enjoy a good fairy tale. A good!!!!! fairy tale.

Proverbs 1:7 (1611 King James Bible) ¶ The feare of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fooles despise wisedome and instruction. Quote: Psalms 14:1 (1611 King James Bible) [To the chiefe musician, A Psalme of Dauid.] The foole hath sayd in his heart, There is no God: they are corrupt, they haue done abominable workes, there is none that doeth good. Quote: Luke 12:5 (1611 King James Bible) But I will forewarne you whom you shall feare: Feare him, which after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell, yea, I say vnto you, Feare him.

Again, there is no empirical evidence of hell, and I can't end up someplace that does not exist.

[Mark L. Snyde, PhD]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

No I am saying you shouldn't rule it out because neither does the bible.

The Bible implicitly rules out the existence of life elsewhere by not mentioning it in the all-inclusive account of creation. Everything that God created is accounted for in Genesis.

Either god intended man to disobey him. Since according to you disobeying him is equivalent to being flawed, man wasn't perfect to begin with. Or god didn't intend man to disobey him. Then how come man didn't work out as intended? In which case god's creation is flawed. See how the bible doesn't add up?

God created man with free will. What good is being worshiped by automatons that are simply programmed to worship and obey. This would be meaningless. Would you rather be loved by a wife that chooses to love you of her own free will, or one that has been programmed to love you? Which would be more meaningful to you?

Sin is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God...

1 John 3:4 (1611 King James Bible)

Whosoeuer committeth sinne, transgresseth also the lawe: for sinne is the transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15 (1611 King James Bible)

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no Lawe is, there is no transgression.

...in the inward state and habit of the soul, as well as in the outward conduct of the life, whether by omission or commission:

Romans Chapter 6 (1611 Bible)

12 Let not sinne reigne therfore in your mortall body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yeeld yee your members as instruments of vnrighteousnes vnto sinne: but yeelde your selues vnto God, as those that are aliue from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousnesse vnto God.
14 For sinne shall not haue dominion ouer you, for yee are not vnder the Law, but vnder Grace.
15 What then? shal we sinne, because wee are not vnder the Law, but vnder Grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom yee yeeld your selues seruants to obey, his seruants ye are to whom ye obey: whether of sinne vnto death, or of obedience vnto righteousnesse?
17 But God bee thanked, that yee were the seruants of sinne: but ye haue obeyed from the heart that fourme of doctrine, which was deliuered you.

Romans Chapter 7 (1611 Bible)

5 For when wee were in the flesh, the motions of sinnes which were by the law, did worke in our members, to bring foorth fruit vnto death.
6 But now wee are deliuered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serue in newnesse of spirit, and not in the oldnesse of the letter.
7 What shall wee say then? is the law sinne? God forbid. Nay, I had not knowen sinne, but by the lawe: for I had not knowen lust, except the Law had said, Thou shalt not couet.
8 But sinne taking occasion by the commaundement, wrought in me all maner of concupiscence. For without the Law sinne was dead.
9 For I was aliue without the Law once, but when the commandement came, sinne reuiued, and I died.
10 And the commandement which was ordained to life, I found to be vnto death.
11 For sinne taking occasion by the commandement, deceiued me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the Law is holy, and the Commandement holy, and iust, and good.
13 Was that then which is good, made death vnto me? God forbid. But sinne, that it might appeare sinne, working death in mee by that which is good: that sinne by the Commaundement might become exceeding sinfull.
14 For wee know that the Law is spirituall: but I am carnall, sold vnder sinne.
15 For that which I do, I allow not: for what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that doe I.
16 If then I doe that which I would not, I consent vnto the Law, that it is good.
17 Now then, it is no more I that doe it: but sinne that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know, that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. For to will is present with me: but how to performe that which is good, I find not.
19 For the good that I would, I do not: but the euill which I would not, that I doe.
20 Now if I doe that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sinne that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a Law, that when I would do good, euil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the Lawe of God, after the inward man.
23 But I see another Lawe in my members, warring against the Lawe of my minde, and bringing me into captiuity to the Law of sinne, which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am: who shall deliuer me from the body of this death?

It is not a mere violation of the law of our constitution, nor of the system of things, but an offense against a personal lawgiver and moral governor who vindicates his law with penalties. The soul that sins is always conscious that his sin is:

(1) intrinsically vile and polluting, and

(2) that it justly deserves punishment, and calls down the righteous wrath of God.

Hence sin carries with it two inalienable characters:

(1) ill-desert, guilt (reatus); and

(2) pollution (macula)

The moral character of a man's actions is determined by the moral state of his heart. The disposition to sin, or the habit of the soul that leads to the sinful act, is itself also sin.

Galatians Chapter 5 (1611 Bible)

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that yee cannot doe the things that yee would.

James Chapter 1 (1611 Bible)

14 But euery man is tempted, when hee is drawen away of his owne lust, and entised.
15 Then when lust hath conceiued, it bringeth forth sinne: and sinne, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The origin of sin is a mystery, and must for ever remain such to us. It is plain that for some reason God has permitted sin to enter this world, and that is all we know. His permitting it, however, in no way makes God the author of sin. Adam's sin (Gen. 3:1-6) consisted in his yielding to the assaults of temptation and eating the forbidden fruit. It involved in it, (1) the sin of unbelief, virtually making God a liar; and (2) the guilt of disobedience to a positive command. By this sin he became an apostate from God, a rebel in arms against his Creator. He lost the favor of God and communion with him; his whole nature became depraved, and he incurred the penalty involved in the covenant of works.

Our first parents being the root of all mankind, the guilt of their sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature were conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by ordinary generation. Adam was constituted by God the federal head and representative of all his posterity, as he was also their natural head, and therefore when he fell they fell with him (Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15:22-45).

His probation was their probation, and his fall their fall. Because of Adam's first sin all his posterity came into the world in a state of sin and condemnation, i.e., (1) a state of moral corruption, and (2) of guilt, as having judicially imputed to them the guilt of Adam's first sin. Original sin is frequently and properly used to denote only the moral corruption of their whole nature inherited by all men from Adam. This inherited moral corruption consists in, (1) the loss of original righteousness; and (2) the presence of a constant proneness to evil, which is the root and origin of all actual sin. It is called "sin" (Rom. 6:12, 14, 17; 7:5-17), the flesh (Gal. 5:17, 24), lust (James 1:14, 15), the body of sin (Rom. 6:6), ignorance, blindness of heart, alienation from the life of God (Eph. 4:18, 19).

It influences and depraves the whole man, and its tendency is still downward to deeper and deeper corruption, there remaining no recuperative element in the soul. It is a total depravity, and it is also universally inherited by all the natural descendants of Adam (Rom. 3:10-23; 5:12-21; 8:7). Pelagians deny original sin, and regard man as by nature morally and spiritually well; semi-Pelagians regard him as morally sick; Augustinians, or, as they are also called, Calvinists, regard man as described above, spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1; 1 John 3:14).

The doctrine of original sin is proved, (1.) From the fact of the universal sinfulness of men. There is no man that sinneth not (1 Kings 8:46; Isa. 53:6; Ps. 130:3; Rom. 3:19, 22, 23; Gal. 3:22).

(2.) From the total depravity of man: All men are declared to be destitute of any principle of spiritual life; man's apostasy from God is total and complete (Job 15:14-16; Gen. 6:5, 6). (3.) From its early manifestation (Ps. 58:3; Prov. 22:15). (4.) It is proved also from the necessity, absolutely and universally, of regeneration (John 3:3; 2 Cor. 5:17). (5.) From the universality of death (Rom. 5:12-20). Various kinds of sin are mentioned, (1.) Presumptuous sins, or as literally rendered, sins with an uplifted hand, i.e., defiant acts of sin, in contrast with errors or inadvertencies (Ps. 19:13). (2.) Secret, i.e., hidden sins (19:12); sins which escape the notice of the soul. (3.) Sin against the Holy Ghost (q.v.), or a sin unto death (Matt. 12:31, 32; 1 John 5:16), which amounts to a willful rejection of grace.

As each individual, even the most private member of the congregation, as well as the congregation at large, and the high priest, was obliged, on being convicted by his conscience of any particular sin, to come with a sin-offering, we see thus impressively disclosed the need in which every sinner stands of the salvation of Christ, and the necessity of making application to it as often as the guilt of sin renews itself upon his conscience. This resort of faith to the perfect sacrifice of Christ is the one way that lies open for the sinner's attainment of pardon and restoration to peace. And then in the sacrifice itself there is the reality of that incomparable worth and preciousness which were so significantly represented in the sin-offering by the sacredness of its blood and the hallowed destination of its flesh. With reference to this the blood of Christ is called emphatically the precious blood, and the blood that cleanseth from all sin (1 John 1:7).

I shudder at the thought that someone would sacrifice their son because he thinks he is saving my soul. I would never want that someone uses me as an excuse to kill his/her offspring. (You may interpret it differently, but that's what it boils down to, isn't it?)

God's sympathy towards the plight of man is boundless, no?

Neither will I end up in hell, nor will I accept the bible is right where it is clearly wrong.

The bible is a book printed on the remains of trees by humans, orignially put down by humans who claim it is the expression of a divine spirit.

Proverbs 1:7 (1611 King James Bible)

¶ The feare of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fooles despise wisedome and instruction.

Psalms 14:1 (1611 King James Bible)

[To the chiefe musician, A Psalme of Dauid.] The foole hath sayd in his heart, There is no God: they are corrupt, they haue done abominable workes, there is none that doeth good.

Luke 12:5 (1611 King James Bible)

But I will forewarne you whom you shall feare: Feare him, which after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell, yea, I say vnto you, Feare him.

[winstonthewhiner]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

It's funny, the Bible mentions unicorns, but you refuse to believe, but now you say we should believe something because the Bible does not specifically rule it out.

No I am saying you shouldn't rule it out because neither does the bible.

You really should read the Bible before trying to debate. God created man perfect and without sin. However, man chose to disobey God, and became contaminated as a result.

Either god intended man to disobey him. Since according to you disobeying him is equivalent to being flawed, man wasn't perfect to begin with. Or god didn't intend man to disobey him. Then how come man didn't work out as intended? In which case god's creation is flawed. See how the bible doesn't add up?

do you know anyone who would give their own son to save your worthless soul?

I shudder at the thought that someone would sacrifice their son because he thinks he is saving my soul. I would never want that someone uses me as an excuse to kill his/her offspring. (You may interpret it differently, but that's what it boils down to, isn't it?)

The Bible is never wrong. Until you accept this, you will wallow in ignorance, and end up in hell.

Neither will I end up in hell, nor will I accept the bible is right where it is clearly wrong.

The Holy Bible is the Living Word of God. Until you accept this, you will wallow in ignorance, and end up in hell.

The bible is a book printed on the remains of trees by humans, orignially put down by humans who claim it is the expression of a divine spirit.

[Mark L. Snyde, PhD]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

Tricky. Our instrumentation is not yet advanced enough to thoroughly investigate our own star system, let alone others. The distance you have to travel are immense. I'd say wait a thousand years and then we discuss this again, but I am afraid you and I will be long dead by then. However, if you exclude the existence of life on a different planet, where is proof of that? Or if you want to stay in your frame of reference: if we look here: http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c012.html

The Bible does not mention leprechauns either, so are we to assume they exist until we prove otherwise.

It's funny, the Bible mentions unicorns, but you refuse to believe, but now you say we should believe something because the Bible does not specifically rule it out. Typical flawed atheist logic.

You wrote he made us, then he tortured himself to death because he couldn't stand us. You claim that makes him sympathetic. To me this looks like you conceive a child. Well, no, you don't conceive it because god didn't just conceive us, he made us. He engineered us, if you so will. Ok, it looks like you engineer your child through genetic engineering or whatever, you look at it, for some reasons you find it's hideous and because of that you kill yourself in a painful way, knowing that you won't die because you are immortal. Please show me how this makes someone sympathetic because frankly I don't see it.

You really should read the Bible before trying to debate. God created man perfect and without sin. However, man chose to disobey God, and became contaminated as a result. At this point man is an abomination to God, who is without sin.

God could have chosen to simply forgive this sin, but setting a good example, He followed His own rules and required a blood sacrifice. He gave His own Son...do you know anyone who would give their own son to save your worthless soul?

The real numbers are contained in the space of complex numbers. But I digress.

Yes, the real numbers are a line in the Argand plane. And?

Or the original biomolecule that started procreating. But do go on.

No need for me to go on, I have taken it back to the beginning.

I can accept that. So you expand the definition of omnipotence a bit, but I can accept that concept. So by now we have a definition that allows the existence of a very mighty being. Still, the proof of existence is still open, and I will come to that later.

God is not "very mighty." He is omnipotent.

And here we go. That's the part that bothers me most. You have something in front of your eyes that tells you what is in the bible is wrong and still you believe that the bible is right and somehow reality has got it wrong. That is the point where christian, or for that purpose, any faith becomes stupid to me. Anyway, I look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

The Bible is never wrong. Until you accept this, you will wallow in ignorance, and end up in hell.

Man is fallible. How can you be sure that your way of interpreting the bible is the right one? And if you take it at face value, how do you know that is the way it was meant to be read? And how do you even know it was written by god and not by someone who just pretended to be god, but instead was a really charismatic speaker/impostor/liar? Because if it wasn't in fact written by god, you are screwed. After all, the bibles you read are not passed down directly by a divine being and mysteriously appear in your living room, they are printed from templates which have been passed on by humans., which come from other humans who CLAIM to have been enlightened. Where is actual proof that this isn't just a giant hoax that is thousands of years old, made up by some power hungry guys who like commanding others? In contrast to god, it is proven that people with such a mentality do exist.

The Bible is never wrong. Until you accept this, you will wallow in ignorance, and end up in hell.

I think I covered that already.

Yep, this has been covered. You are wrong and headed for hell.

Usually you don't have god speaking to you. Much more often you have someone who claims to have god spoken to him/her. Which reduces the whole affair to the dinosaur example. If you think you hav god speaking to you, how do you separate it form wishful thinking?

The Holy Bible is the Living Word of God. Until you accept this, you will wallow in ignorance, and end up in hell.

[winstonthewhiner]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

Show me anywhere else there is life except on God's green Earth.

Tricky. Our instrumentation is not yet advanced enough to thoroughly investigate our own star system, let alone others. The distance you have to travel are immense. I'd say wait a thousand years and then we discuss this again, but I am afraid you and I will be long dead by then. However, if you exclude the existence of life on a different planet, where is proof of that? Or if you want to stay in your frame of reference: if we look here: http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c012.html

The Scriptures do not directly address the question of alien beings. The Bible does not explicitly confirm or deny the existence of intelligent life from other planets.

You claimed God is unsympathetic. I countered with an amazing show of love and sympathy by God for the plight of man. You couldn't stand to be shown that you are wrong, so you invent subterfuge. Nice try.

You wrote he made us, then he tortured himself to death because he couldn't stand us. You claim that makes him sympathetic. To me this looks like you conceive a child. Well, no, you don't conceive it because god didn't just conceive us, he made us. He engineered us, if you so will. Ok, it looks like you engineer your child through genetic engineering or whatever, you look at it, for some reasons you find it's hideous and because of that you kill yourself in a painful way, knowing that you won't die because you are immortal. Please show me how this makes someone sympathetic because frankly I don't see it.

God cannot be contained. It's akin to trying to express the set of real numbers on a closed interval.

The real numbers are contained in the space of complex numbers. But I digress.

You're missing the entire point here. Chickens produce chicken eggs. If you trace a chicken's ancestry back to the beginning, you arrive at the original chicken God created.

Or the original biomolecule that started procreating. But do go on.

The point is that God cannot do something that is a violation of His own existence and nature.

I can accept that. So you expand the definition of omnipotence a bit, but I can accept that concept. So by now we have a definition that allows the existence of a very mighty being. Still, the proof of existence is still open, and I will come to that later.

Contrast this with the unwavering, unchanging Word of God, perfect and complete. Sceince can be wonderful, but the moment it contradicts God's Word, it must be discarded, since it it obviously worthless.

And here we go. That's the part that bothers me most. You have something in front of your eyes that tells you what is in the bible is wrong and still you believe that the bible is right and somehow reality has got it wrong. That is the point where christian, or for that purpose, any faith becomes stupid to me. Anyway, I look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

as well as the book's transmission through a human prophet.

Man is fallible. How can you be sure that your way of interpreting the bible is the right one? And if you take it at face value, how do you know that is the way it was meant to be read? And how do you even know it was written by god and not by someone who just pretended to be god, but instead was a really charismatic speaker/impostor/liar? Because if it wasn't in fact written by god, you are screwed. After all, the bibles you read are not passed down directly by a divine being and mysteriously appear in your living room, they are printed from templates which have been passed on by humans., which come from other humans who CLAIM to have been enlightened. Where is actual proof that this isn't just a giant hoax that is thousands of years old, made up by some power hungry guys who like commanding others? In contrast to god, it is proven that people with such a mentality do exist.

What it doesn't look good for are all the unsaved heathens, like yourself, who are bound for hell.

I think I covered that already.

If a man makes a ridiculous statement, I would demand proof. However, if God were to say anything ridiculous, I would not demand proof.

Usually you don't have god speaking to you. Much more often you have someone who claims to have god spoken to him/her. Which reduces the whole affair to the dinosaur example. If you think you hav god speaking to you, how do you separate it form wishful thinking?

[Mark L. Snyde, PhD]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

Not magically. It's about valence electrons and proximity.

Depends on the odds of that happening. If this occurs very often, then yes, we would see it all the time.

We don't, and we can conclude the odds are very small. Yet they are not zero. As I stated, billions of years passed since the universe started. Our universe contains millions of galxies, all of which have billions of stars. A fraction of them is habitable, meaning it has conditions similar to earth. On some of them, life formed and earth happens to be one of them.

Show me anywhere else there is life except on God's green Earth.

Yes, it is a reductio ad absurdum of your original argument which was this:

You claimed God is unsympathetic. I countered with an amazing show of love and sympathy by God for the plight of man. You couldn't stand to be shown that you are wrong, so you invent subterfuge. Nice try.

Then what is it that he exists in?

God cannot be contained. It's akin to trying to express the set of real numbers on a closed interval.

In a more abstract way

Egg->chicken #this is a transformation: one thing is consumed by turning into another one
chicken->egg+chicken #this is not a transformation as the chicken is not consumed. It existed before it laid an egg and will continue to do so after the egg was laid.

You're missing the entire point here. Chickens produce chicken eggs. If you trace a chicken's ancestry back to the beginning, you arrive at the original chicken God created.

Genesis 2:19 (1611 King James Bible)

And out of þe ground the LORD God formed euery beast of the field, and euery foule of the aire, and brought them vnto Adam, to see what he would call them: and whatsoeuer Adam called euery liuing creature, that was the name thereof.

I think it has been brought up that in this case he could create a stone he couldn't lift.

If he couldn't create it, he wouldn't be omnipotent, if he could create it, he couldn't lift it and then he wouldn't be omnipotent.

This question is representative of the type of paradoxes atheists use in attempts to prove that God cannot exist. It works like this. God is supposed to be omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, then He can create a rock so big that He can't pick it up. If He cannot make a rock like this, then He is not omnipotent. If He can make a rock so big He can't pick it up, then He isn't omnipotent either. Either way demonstrates that God cannot do something. Therefore God is not omnipotent. Therefore God does not exist.

Is this logical? A little. However, the problem is that this bit of logic omits some crucial information. Therefore, it's conclusion is inaccurate.
What the above "paradox" lacks is vital information concerning God's nature. His omnipotence is not something independent of His nature. It is part of His nature. God has a nature and His attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.

For example, I have human nature. I can run, but I cannot outrun a lion. My nature simply does not permit it. My ability to run is connected to my nature and I cannot violate it. So too with God. His omnipotence is connected to His nature since being omnipotent is part of what He is. Omnipotence, then, must be consistent with what He is and not with what He is not since His omnipotence is not an entity to itself. Therefore, God can only do those things that are consistent with His nature. He cannot lie because it is against His nature to do so. Not being able to lie does not mean He is not God or that He is not all powerful. Also, He cannot cease to be God. Since He is in all places at all times, if He stopped existing then He wouldn't be in all places at all times. Therefore, He cannot cease to exist without violating His own nature.

The point is that God cannot do something that is a violation of His own existence and nature. Therefore, He cannot make a rock so big he can't pick up, or make something bigger than Himself, etc. But, not being able to do this does not mean He is not God, nor that He is not omnipotent. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable, but the ability to do anything consistent with His nature and consistent with His desire within the realm of His unlimited and universal power which we do not possess. This does not mean He can violate His own nature. If He did something inconsistent with His nature, then He would be self-contradictory. If God were self- contradictory, He would not be true. Likewise, if He did something that violated His nature, like make a rock so big He couldn't pick it up, He would also not be true since that would be a self- contradiction. Since truth is not self-contradictory, as neither is God, if He were not true, then He would not be God. But God is true and not self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot do something that violates His own nature.

Another way to look at it is to realize that in order for God to make something so big He couldn't pick it up, He would have to make a rock bigger than Himself. Since He is infinite in size, He would have to make something that would be bigger than Himself. Since it is His nature to be the biggest thing in existence because He created all things, He cannot violate His own nature by making a rock that is larger than He.
Also, since a rock, by definition, is not infinitely big, then it isn't logically possible to make a rock, something that is finite in size, be infinite in size (no longer a rock) since only God is infinite in size. At dictionary.com, a rock is defined as a "Relatively hard, naturally formed mineral or petrified matter; stone. a) A relatively small piece or fragment of such material. b) A relatively large body of such material, as a cliff or peak. c) A naturally formed aggregate of mineral matter constituting a significant part of the earth's crust." A rock, by definition, is not infinitely large. So to say the rock must be so big that God cannot pick it up is to say that the rock is no longer a rock.

What the critics are asking is that God become self-contradictory as a proof He doesn't exist. Their assertion is illogical from the start. What they are doing is trying to get God to be illogical. They are being illogical to prove God doesn't exist, instead of using logic. It doesn't work and the "paradox" is self-refuting and invalid.

But not without evidence. And if there is contradicting evidence, it will be adjusted and advanced.

Contrast this with the unwavering, unchanging Word of God, perfect and complete. Sceince can be wonderful, but the moment it contradicts God's Word, it must be discarded, since it it obviously worthless.

2 Timothy 3:16 (1611 King James Bible)

All Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God, & is profitable for doctrine, for reproofe, for correction, for instrution in righteousnesse,

This shows us that science, along with everything else, is to be corrected by the Word of God.

We cannot observe god directly. but the bible makes statements about this world, we are living on, too. Does the bible accurately describe our world?

The Bible is accurate in all things, as explained above.

If we were living in a christian theocracy, I would agree that the word of god is truth by that criterion. However, we don't live in a christian theocracy.

It doesn't matter what type of government we have, this does not affect the Truth of The Word of God. Governments come and go...The Word of God is eternally truthful.

Matthew 24:35 (1611 King James Bible)

Heauen and earth shall passe away, but my wordes shall not passe away.

This doesn't look good for christian truth.

Doesn't look good for the future

What it doesn't look good for are all the unsaved heathens, like yourself, who are bound for hell.

5)Pragmatic

Truth is that concordance of an abstract statement with the ideal limit towards which endless investigation would tend to bring scientific belief

What you declare god cannot be scientifically proven. So by that definition the bible the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent creator can neither be false nor true.

To quote the amazing atheist from youtube: If I told you I had real dinosaur at home, but it is invisible, inaudible and you cannot touch it, would you believe me?

If a man makes a ridiculous statement, I would demand proof. However, if God were to say anything ridiculous, I would not demand proof. By definition, anything God says is true.

[winstonthewhiner]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

Are you referring to the lit review?

Exactly.

There is plenty of proof that heaven and hell exist.

Empirical evidence. That means observable by your own eyes or ears.

So, simple molecules just magically combined to make complex molecules that magically became living things?

Not magically. It's about valence electrons and proximity.

If this were the case then wouldn't we see non-living matter becoming living matter all around us?

Depends on the odds of that happening. If this occurs very often, then yes, we would see it all the time.

We don't, and we can conclude the odds are very small. Yet they are not zero. As I stated, billions of years passed since the universe started. Our universe contains millions of galxies, all of which have billions of stars. A fraction of them is habitable, meaning it has conditions similar to earth. On some of them, life formed and earth happens to be one of them.

So, you agree then that you original analogy here is ridiculous

Yes, it is a reductio ad absurdum of your original argument which was this:

He sent Himself to be sacrificed to Himself in a grueling death so that we would not be an intolerable abomination to Him...how is this unsympathetic?

God is not contained by the universe, the universe is contained by God.

Then what is it that he exists in?

The Word IS God.

Ah, so you use the phrase word of god as a synonym for god? That is a bit confusing, but okay...

So you believe only that which you can see? You've never seen a chicken lay an egg? Have you ever seen an egg arise from nothing?

In a more abstract way

Egg->chicken #this is a transformation: one thing is consumed by turning into another one
chicken->egg+chicken #this is not a transformation as the chicken is not consumed. It existed before it laid an egg and will continue to do so after the egg was laid.

God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

I think it has been brought up that in this case he could create a stone he couldn't lift.

If he couldn't create it, he wouldn't be omnipotent, if he could create it, he couldn't lift it and then he wouldn't be omnipotent.

Science offers nothing but theories and conjectures.

But not without evidence. And if there is contradicting evidence, it will be adjusted and advanced.

The Word of God is the only Truth we have.

I looked here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth#Substantive_theories

The following definitions of truth exist:

1) Correspondence

This class of theories holds that the truth or the falsity of a representation is determined in principle entirely by how it relates to "things", by whether it accurately describes those "things.

We cannot observe god directly. but the bible makes statements about this world, we are living on, too. Does the bible accurately describe our world? Well, it was repeatedly stated at these forums that theaccording to the bible the world is flat and roughly 7000-12000 years old. Now, something like radio carbon dating is accurate up to 60.000 years. If you look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating#The_129I_-_129Xe_chronometer

You will see that the principle can be extended to nuclei besides carbon. Even though these methods are insufficient to prove earth is 4.5 billion years old, they definitely disprove the assumption that it is at maximum 12.000 years old.


2) Coherence

For coherence theories in general, truth requires a proper fit of elements within a whole system.

So no internal contradictions in the bible? Then what do we have here?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#good_to_all

God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

The list on the website is much longer, but I won't list the rest here.

3) Constructivist

Social constructivism holds that truth is constructed by social processes, is historically and culturally specific, and that it is in part shaped through the power struggles within a community.

If we were living in a christian theocracy, I would agree that the word of god is truth by that criterion. However, we don't live in a christian theocracy.

4) Consensus

If you look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups

33 % of christian faith worldwide? There are more nonchristians than christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

The number of atheists is on the rise across the world, with religiosity generally declining.

This doesn't look good for christian truth.

Doesn't look good for the future

5)Pragmatic

Truth is that concordance of an abstract statement with the ideal limit towards which endless investigation would tend to bring scientific belief

What you declare god cannot be scientifically proven. So by that definition the bible the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent creator can neither be false nor true.

To quote the amazing atheist from youtube: If I told you I had real dinosaur at home, but it is invisible, inaudible and you cannot touch it, would you believe me?

[Mark L. Snyde, PhD]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

No. In the beginning there were some simple molecules, like ammonia, methane and carbon dioxide on earth. These molecules contain all the atoms required to form more complex molecules and systems of molecules. At some point a pattern occurred that procreated. Over billions of years and trillions and quadrillions of individuals, today's species such as mankind and all the animals, plants funghi etc around you evolved.

So, simple molecules just magically combined to make complex molecules that magically became living things? If this were the case then wouldn't we see non-living matter becoming living matter all around us?

I wholeheartedly agree. That is the fundament of modern science. If causality didn't exist, we could throw away pretty much all we know in an instant.

The only thing we can never discard is the Word of God.

And this is where it gets ludicrous. Either causality is universal, then god is subject to it. Or it isn't, in which case what you said before is invalid.

God is not contained by the universe, the universe is contained by God. Please read my posts more carefully.

No, this kind of argument might confuse your christians, who see it is about the divine, so it has to right. Anybody not indoctrinated will see that the parts of your sentence are simply not related to each other. Just as the roundness of an apple and the taste of a banana are two completely different things that are not related.

So, you agree then that you original analogy here is ridiculous. You are so confused without God that you can't even remember what you're talking about.

2 Timothy 2:7 (1611 King James Bible)

Consider what I say, and the Lord giue thee vnderstanding in all things.

John 16:13 (1611 King James Bible)

Howbeit, when hee the spirit of trueth is come, he wil guide you into all trueth: For he shall not speake of himselfe: but whatsoeuer he shall heare, that shall he speake, and he will shew you things to come.

but you are dealing with the sharp mind of a True Christian™

A razor blade is very sharp, but it is also very tiny and thin...

Psalms 52:2 (1611 King James Bible)

Thy tongue deuiseth mischiefes: like a sharpe rasor, working deceitfully.

Are there any unicorns today? I have seen none.

So...you believe the only species that have ever existed are those which are living today? According to you then, there is no such thing as extinction? Interesting.

Ok, the bible uses unicorns in a comparison. Why does that mean I hate god? I think your mind needs a little sharpening.

The Bible speaks of unicorns, thus they existed. My mind is infinitely dull compared to that of The Almighty, but compared to you, it would cleave an atom of spacetime many times over.

Rejecting the Word of God is hatred towards God.

This is getting tiring. Please do read my posts before you answer. I asked about the WORD of god. I better repeat this. The WORD!!!!! Not the mind!!!! If any supernatural being ended the universe at a time, there would be no place for his/her word to be around.

Well well, you are getting tired? Did you not read the verse I quoted?

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/John%201.1

The Word IS God.

So you have seen chicken transforming into eggs? I have only seen the exact opposite.

So you believe only that which you can see? You've never seen a chicken lay an egg? Have you ever seen an egg arise from nothing?

Your very fine example just demonstrates that the notion of a god does not make sense from a rational point of view because the foundation of rationality, causality does not apply to god.

God made the laws of nature and logic, but is not bound by them. God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

Matthew 19:26 (1611 King James Bible)

But Iesus beheld them, and said vnto them, With men this is vnpossible, but with God al things are possible.

I don't hate something whose existence is not backed up by empirical evidence. Neither the existence of god nor the existence of hell nor the one of unicorns has been proven by science. I am not afraid of hell, because I don't believe it exists. When will you people get it? It is futile to threaten me with eternal torment as long as I think your judgement is misguided in that respect.

Science offers nothing but theories and conjectures. Nothing is proven. The Word of God is the only Truth we have. You are allowing Satan to cloud your mind with all sorts of nonsense. This is how he leads the majority to hell. Wake up your clouded mind and behold the Truth of God!!

Ephesians 4:18 (1611 King James Bible)

Hauing the vnderstanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindnesse of their heart:

Proverbs 22:3 (1611 King James Bible)

A prudent man foreseeth the euill, and hideth himselfe: but the simple passe on, and are punished.

Proverbs 8:5 (1611 King James Bible)

O yee simple, vnderstand wisedome: and yee fooles, be yee of an vnderstanding heart.

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

Your forum name suggests you have a PhD. I was under the impression that getting a PhD requires you to do research and research requires you to look things up that have already been done on the field that you are working on.

When you do a PhD the point is to break new ground: to do research is an act of discovery. Are you referring to the lit review?

For example, my thesis was about the efficacy of positive externalised Jesus focussed self talk in the disruption of depressive rumination and worry cognition chains of effect for pre and post morbid individuals in an out patient setting (and yes we had double blinds in place).

The reason I got funding was because no body had ever asked that question before. But I still had to read the Bible.

Does that make sense?

YIC

[Pim Pendergast]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

I don't hate something whose existence is not backed up by empirical evidence. Neither the existence of god nor the existence of hell nor the one of unicorns has been proven by science. I am not afraid of hell, because I don't believe it exists. When will you people get it? It is futile to threaten me with eternal torment as long as I think your judgement is misguided in that respect.

There is plenty of proof that heaven and hell exist. I don't know if you're familiar with the parable of Lazarus (Lk 16:20-31). A man being tormented in hell pleads with Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his brothers about hell. Abraham's response was:

Lk 16:31b If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

"Moses and the prophets" means the Old Testament. In other words, if you won't believe that hell exists because the Bible says so, then you definitely won't believe any real evidence, such as someone who has seen hell coming back from the dead to tell you all about it.

So. I have proved that hell exists. How do I know heaven exists? Simple. If heaven didn't exist, Jesus would have told us so!

Jn 14:2 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

That was too easy. What else have you got?

[winstonthewhiner]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

You are alive because all of your descendents all the way back to Adam procreated.

No. In the beginning there were some simple molecules, like ammonia, methane and carbon dioxide on earth. These molecules contain all the atoms required to form more complex molecules and systems of molecules. At some point a pattern occurred that procreated. Over billions of years and trillions and quadrillions of individuals, today's species such as mankind and all the animals, plants funghi etc around you evolved.

You see, the universe is full of sequences of events, where each event is predated by a cause

I wholeheartedly agree. That is the fundament of modern science. If causality didn't exist, we could throw away pretty much all we know in an instant.

Only God is completely outside of this order.

And this is where it gets ludicrous. Either causality is universal, then god is subject to it. Or it isn't, in which case what you said before is invalid.

This kind of mushy thinking might confuse your atheist butt-buddies,

No, this kind of argument might confuse your christians, who see it is about the divine, so it has to right. Anybody not indoctrinated will see that the parts of your sentence are simply not related to each other. Just as the roundness of an apple and the taste of a banana are two completely different things that are not related.

[/QUOTE]but you are dealing with the sharp mind of a True Christian™[/QUOTE]A razor blade is very sharp, but it is also very tiny and thin...

Unicorns existed in the past:

Are there any unicorns today? I have seen none.

So, the question stands...why do you hate God?

Ok, the bible uses unicorns in a comparison. Why does that mean I hate god? I think your mind needs a little sharpening.

Do you deny that the mind of God exists outside of and independent of the universe he created for us?

This is getting tiring. Please do read my posts before you answer. I asked about the WORD of god. I better repeat this. The WORD!!!!! Not the mind!!!! If any supernatural being ended the universe at a time, there would be no place for his/her word to be around.

That would be like saying the egg came before the chicken, which is a ridiculous notion.

So you have seen chicken transforming into eggs? I have only seen the exact opposite.

Your very fine example just demonstrates that the notion of a god does not make sense from a rational point of view because the foundation of rationality, causality does not apply to god.

You know, it's not too late for you to admit your hatred of God is wrong, get on your knees and repent, and get right with God. Jesus brought you here so that you could be instructed in the ways of his followers. Don't let this chance get away from you and you find yourself impaled on the barbed tallywhacker of Satan, while you are burned forever and have no chance of escape...ever.

I don't hate something whose existence is not backed up by empirical evidence. Neither the existence of god nor the existence of hell nor the one of unicorns has been proven by science. I am not afraid of hell, because I don't believe it exists. When will you people get it? It is futile to threaten me with eternal torment as long as I think your judgement is misguided in that respect.

[Mark L. Snyde, PhD]

Re: The Christian guide to TORTURING your children

I am alife because my parents had unprotected sex. Weren't you told how mammals procreate in school?

You are alive because all of your descendents all the way back to Adam procreated. And who gave Adam life? Yep, it was none other than God...now don't you feel foolish? It's okay, as an atheist you are foolish at heart. Let me explain how things work:

You see, the universe is full of sequences of events, where each event is predated by a cause, all of which lead back to the moment when God created the universe. This is the causal order I spoke of before. Only God is completely outside of this order.

That sentence does not make sense. It's like saying how come an apple is round, but a banana is still delicious?

Do you care to show how this silly analogy is applicable in any way to what I said? This kind of mushy thinking might confuse your atheist butt-buddies, but you are dealing with the sharp mind of a True Christian™, so you will actually have to make sense here.

No. I deny the existence of unicorns, too, but I don't hate unicorns. Why would I care if an imaginary figure form a semi real book hates me?

Unicorns existed in the past:

Numbers 24:8 (1611 King James Bible)

God brought him forth out of Egypt, he hath as it were the strength of an Unicorne: he shall eate vp the nations his enemies, and shall breake their bones, and pierce them thorow with his arrowes.

So, the question stands...why do you hate God?

You were talking about his word. Why is there a need for a word when nothing is left where it can be heard? I suggest, you follow your own advice.

Do you deny that the mind of God exists outside of and independent of the universe he created for us? That would be silly, even for an atheist.

That would be like saying the egg came before the chicken, which is a ridiculous notion.

You know, it's not too late for you to admit your hatred of God is wrong, get on your knees and repent, and get right with God. Jesus brought you here so that you could be instructed in the ways of his followers. Don't let this chance get away from you and you find yourself impaled on the barbed tallywhacker of Satan, while you are burned forever and have no chance of escape...ever.