[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Hello, Mr. Shert.

I see that you've researched and responded to many questions (and occasional accusations) in an intelligent and respectful manner, for which I feel you are to be commended.

Could you read over this text, and share your thoughts? The author uses Islam to help him discredit Christianity. He makes some interesting points by doing so, and I'd like to hear what you think of those points.

Thanks!

Thank you for your compliment Illustrator. However, I cannot access the website as it is considered "Message Board and Clubs" since I am using internet at work where they deny access to some website.

But I could tell you this, using Islam to discredit Christianity is useless. Because every religion is invalid based on my religion, and vice versa.

Saying you are wrong, because my religion says so, is something everybody can do.

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

I don't think Illustrator is Sam Harris, the well-known atheist author (that's who wrote the text he linked to). But maybe he is?

Either way, you may have noticed he's not exactly promoting either Christianity OR Islam, and probably wouldn't care to defend anything a True Christian has to say . . . I'm guessing you didn't read that heretical, anti-Christian rant very closely.

about: the strife between Israel and Palestine. The fight is not over the holy ground. The fight is over homeland!! Palestinians lived there, then a few countries decided to give Palestine to Israel!! Give us a few suggestions to what the Palestinians should do to get their land??

Some would say the Jews were there first, before the Muslims stole THEIR homeland. Muslims didn't build Jerusalem. (Because there weren't any then.)

Oops. Thought we'd forget that little bit, didn't you?

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

When I read your paragraph about Iran, you remind me of what Al-Qaeda says about America.

What does the past mean, if you want to live your future in peace??
Isn't this what you said:
If the Muslim people truly want peace, they have to step up and take it. It won't be offered.
Thats what we are trying to do, live in peace.

Also, I haven't seen any comments from you regarding the other post made by true Christian.

about: the strife between Israel and Palestine. The fight is not over the holy ground. The fight is over homeland!! Palestinians lived there, then a few countries decided to give Palestine to Israel!! Give us a few suggestions to what the Palestinians should do to get their land??

Praying toward Mecca is a practice we must follow, whether mecca is occupied or not. You say its something Mohammed added himself, thats your opinion. We give Mecca the value that God gave it.

Allah is the God who sent Mosses, Jesus, and Mohammed (Peace be upon them all) along with other prophets and messengers. Mosses and Jesus messages were altered, so God, Allah, sent Mohammed with the final message.
Thats why most of the stories are similar in the Koran and Bible.

About Saudi Arabia:
I am sure the government isn't putting on airs for the US government. The proof is in the news when you see the government chasing and killing all these terrorists on Saudi soil.
Why is Gas +3$, its because most of the companies buy oil from Saudi and make +150% profit.

Regarding Freedom of Religion:
We don't force people to become Muslims, especially The people of the book (Christian and Jews). Thats why if someone wants to convert to Islam, we teach him/her everything there is to know about Islam, including the death of those who leave Islam, then ask him/her again if they want to become a Muslim, thats why it is a religion of faith and peace.

In Christianity, maybe you can correct me if I am wrong:
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

The above passage tells you to kill anyone who tells you to worship different Gods. So, if I were to come to your home and preach about Islam, death would be my sentence.

If people use Religion as an excuse to slaughter innocent people, does that make the religion bad?? There are many messed up people in the world who will use ANY excuse to reach their goals, but that doesn't make their excuse valid.

If the 3 countries didn't give Palestine to the Jews, then the Palestinians would be living in peace right now.

[Illustrator]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Any more questions??

Hello, Mr. Shert.

I see that you've researched and responded to many questions (and occasional accusations) in an intelligent and respectful manner, for which I feel you are to be commended.

Could you read over this text, and share your thoughts? The author uses Islam to help him discredit Christianity. He makes some interesting points by doing so, and I'd like to hear what you think of those points.

Thanks!

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Yes, Qu'ran is perfect.

Then why do you need the Hadith?

Who said he didn't write a perfect word??

Then why do you need to "look at the life of the prophet" (look in the Hadith) to interpretate your religion correctly?

Who said we added to it?? Unlike the Bible, there is only one version of the Qu'ran.

You decided that you needed the Hadith too.

We don't need further books.

Then why do you need to "look at the life of the prophet" (look in the Hadith) to interpretate your religion correctly?

And we don't view Mohammed as an Idol/God/Son Of God. We say as he commanded us: The servant of God and his messenger. You see, all our prayers are directed to God, not to Mohammed.

Then why do you idolize his life, and his way of life, apart from that laid down in the Qu'ran?
Why must you dress like Moohamhead, and why can't you watch TV because he didn't (an example) and so forth?
It is not forbidden in the Qu'ran now is it?
Why do you consider tradition (Hadith) as important, or atleast important, when you have the "perfect" Qu'ran?

Where did I do that??

I've pretty much covered that.

Any more questions??

I think those should have covered it..

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Iran will always have a bad name. It was the ancient seat of Persia. In much the same way as the Romans and Roman Catholics killed their way across Europe and the middle east, Persia did the same. Where they differ is in that ancient Persia was a decadent place. Some of the kings of Persia hailed themselves as gods. You'll notice that most of the emperors of Rome that called themselves divine were either killed, or hopelessly insane, or both.

I say:
The only time I heard this was in Palestine's case, where the so called civilians are considered invaders. Anyone who invades a place and live there is considered an invader, even if they didn't hold any weapons

Considering the strife in Palestine and Israel, and the ancient sites, would they not both be invaders? A patch of ground is a patch of ground. God does not live in those places. I think the part about praying toward Mecca was something that Mohammad added himself, much like a lot of the other passages.

What do you think of the old testament? I've heard many Muslims here claim that they worship the same God, and many of the stories are the same until the coming of Christ. If this were the case, then Muslims should be following the laws set down in Leviticus.

I say:
There is 0 tolerance to any Shiekh who supports 9/11 here in Saudi Arabia. I don't know anyone who is happy or supportive of 9/11 here, and if I see one, I am going to have a long talk with them because what happened in 9/11 is Islamicaly wrong.

If this is really the case, then God bless Saudi Arabia. Are you sure this isn't a case of the government putting on airs for the US government so we'll continue to funnel money there? The United States Air Force spends billions every year to maintain headquarters there, not to mention the money from oil sales. It's over 3.00 US dollars a gallon of gas now, even though the region is still pumping out the same amount of oil.

I say:
A Muslim who leaves Islam is considered a traitor. All traitors in most countries are executed. However, in Islam if someone wants to leave Islam, he will be given a 3 months to think about. He will be asked three times if he wants to leave Islam. If the answer is Yes, then he will be executed.
Also, what is the rule in Christianity about this?? I have read before that if your brother talks to you about worshiping an idol or a different God, then you should kill him. I am sure some of you know the verse. However, I cannot find it now, I'll reference it when I find it.

There are many laws that call for stoning in Christianity, but God also told us to follow secular laws.

The case you're talking about is within a family. If your father, brother, son, uncle, daughter, wife tells you to worship idols and false gods, then you are to take steps to put an end to it. We let them go. Do you want people to follow your religion freely, or forcefully? If they're forced, is it really a religion of faith and peace, or one of fear and death?

Following the secular laws of our land, we are not allowed to kill those that believe differently. Should those laws ever be revoked, how many people do you think would have the courage to do what God commands? Only True Christians™ would follow those laws I think.

I say:
We don't worship Mecca, we are just told to face toward Mecca when we pray. God told us to do so, so we follow him. If there was no order from God about Mecca, then no one will care about it.
Omar, the second Khalifa,said it himself. He said: I know you are just a stone that cannot benefit or hurt me, but I am doing this because God told us to do it.

Would you still be able to pray toward Mecca is another country occupied the site today? Of course you would.

I say:
The fight between Muslims is not a fight of religion, its a fight to gain control, like in Iraq.
You are right about peace. Everyone wants peace, look at the efforts of Saudi Arabia to prosecute all the terrorists and to help others live in peace, like in Palestine.

Are you sure religion isn't being used as an excuse to slaughter overpopulated places in order to gain control over their resources? Who desires these wars? Is it the common people who are slaughtered in Allah's name?

I agree that the state if Israel should be wiped off the planet, but would Palestine be any better? If they didn't have Joos as enemies, who would they turn their eyes toward next? Israel isn't the land of milk and honey, no matter what Joos say.

Does that mean that all Joos should be killed? No, but they should not have their own recognized state.

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

So you are a sunni then, I take it?
Yes, I am sunni
Moohamhead claimed that the Qu'ran was "perfect"..
Yes, Qu'ran is perfect.
And if you don't think it is (I'm talking theoretical, of course it isn't.) then what kind of God would "allah" be, who can't even write a perfect word?
Who said he didn't write a perfect word??
So.. why do you add to it?
Who said we added to it?? Unlike the Bible, there is only one version of the Qu'ran.
Why do you need further books, where you set up Moohamhead as an idol?
We don't need further books. God told us, in the Qu'ran, that we must follow Mohammed commands along with the Qu'ran.
And we don't view Mohammed as an Idol/God/Son Of God. We say as he commanded us: The servant of God and his messenger. You see, all our prayers are directed to God, not to Mohammed.
Why do you disrespect "Allah's prophet" () wishes and teachings like that?
Where did I do that??

Any more questions??

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Dr. Davidson: You raised multiple points, I hope I could answer them all at once:

You said:
If this is the case, why are sheikh's telling suicide bombers that they will be rewarded in paradise? No slight to those who just want to live peacefully, but most targets are full of civilians.
I say:
The only time I heard this was in Palestine's case, where the so called civilians are considered invaders. Anyone who invades a place and live there is considered an invader, even if they didn't hold any weapons.

You Said:
The only military target on 9/11 was the Pentagon, and even it has more than 50% civilians running around inside. I don't think the World Trade Center had any military offices within.
Most US embassies have over 90% civilian workers. It boggles the mind as to why restaurants and hotels are targets of the Islamic jihad.
I only know what my military friends tell me about Saudi Arabia. It may not be as bad there, but funds from oil sales in Saudi are being funneled to terrorist cells throughout the middle east. Osama Bin Laden was an oil sheikh, and most probably still is(wherever he is hiding).
I say:
There is 0 tolerance to any Shiekh who supports 9/11 here in Saudi Arabia. I don't know anyone who is happy or supportive of 9/11 here, and if I see one, I am going to have a long talk with them because what happened in 9/11 is Islamicaly wrong.
Bin Ladin: Yes he was a business man here in Saudi, but all his accounts were frozen here after he was exposed.
Also, there is nothing called oil sheikh, all the oil in Saudi is produced by one company, Aramco, and all the money goes to the government. No one owns oil here, its just a stereotype about Saudi Arabia.

You said:
Don't get me wrong. Israel is just as bad, except they have neutron bombs. Both sides are bombing the hell out of civilians. The only real difference is that a member of Islam that wants to convert to another religion is usually killed before being allowed to do so.
I say:
A Muslim who leaves Islam is considered a traitor. All traitors in most countries are executed. However, in Islam if someone wants to leave Islam, he will be given a 3 months to think about. He will be asked three times if he wants to leave Islam. If the answer is Yes, then he will be executed.
Also, what is the rule in Christianity about this?? I have read before that if your brother talks to you about worshiping an idol or a different God, then you should kill him. I am sure some of you know the verse. However, I cannot find it now, I'll reference it when I find it.

You said:
All these fights over "holy sites" is just an excuse to kill each other. A building is nothing more than a pile of stones. God or Allah doesn't inhabit them, even though Catholics, Joos, and Muslims would have you believe otherwise. All of those religions have a rule about worshiping idols, yet they worship these sites and buildings as if they were God.
Some would argue that these sites are testaments of their faith. This is the wrong kind of thinking. Their faith should be a testament of their faith. Does a building or sacred rock make me a True Christian™? The answer is no. I am a True Christian™ because I have faith in God.
I say:
We don't worship Mecca, we are just told to face towards Mecca when we pray. God told us to do so, so we follow him. If there was no order from God about Mecca, then no one will care about it.
Omar, the second Khalifa,said it himself. He said: I know you are just a stone that cannot benefit or hurt me, but I am doing this because God told us to do it.

You said:
There seems to be too many different versions of Islam, much like there are too many versions of Christianity. Early Christians indeed fought each other over who was right, but that was nearly 2000 years ago. There may still be fighting going on, but it isn't with automatic machine guns.
Sunni, Shiites, etc., they fight each other, while saying that the rest of the world are the real enemies. It's time for those that believe that killing civilians is wrong to step up take control. Dictators and zealots can only keep control by the will of the people. Fear is not an option. A few thousand with guns are telling millions how to think and act. If the Muslim people truly want peace, they have to step up and take it. It won't be offered.
I say:
The fight between Muslims is not a fight of religion, its a fight to gain control, like in Iraq.
You are right about peace. Everyone wants peace, look at the efforts of Saudi Arabia to prosecute all the terrorists and to help others live in peace, like in Palestine.
However, Where is the peace you are speaking of when I see these posts like this one http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=2784 and here http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=2763
written by True Christians here promoting war in your forums??

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Also, you have to look at the life of the prophet.

So you are a sunni then, I take it?
Moohamhead claimed that the Qu'ran was "perfect"..
And if you don't think it is (I'm talking theoretical, of course it isn't.) then what kind of God would "allah" be, who can't even write a perfect word?

So.. why do you add to it?
Why do you need further books, where you set up Moohamhead as an idol?
Why do you disrespect "Allah's prophet" () wishes and teachings like that?

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Dr. Davidson, you also said, and I quote: "So, according you your book, it is still acceptable to attack and screw over average Americans."
You are wrong, because killing civilians is not allowed in Islam.

If this is the case, why are sheikh's telling suicide bombers that they will be rewarded in paradise? No slight to those who just want to live peacefully, but most targets are full of civilians.

The only military target on 9/11 was the Pentagon, and even it has more than 50% civilians running around inside. I don't think the World Trade Center had any military offices within.

Most US embassies have over 90% civilian workers. It boggles the mind as to why restaurants and hotels are targets of the Islamic jihad.

I only know what my military friends tell me about Saudi Arabia. It may not be as bad there, but funds from oil sales in Saudi are being funneled to terrorist cells throughout the middle east. Osama Bin Laden was an oil sheikh, and most probably still is(wherever he is hiding).

Don't get me wrong. Israel is just as bad, except they have neutron bombs. Both sides are bombing the hell out of civilians. The only real difference is that a member of Islam that wants to convert to another religion is usually killed before being allowed to do so.

All these fights over "holy sites" is just an excuse to kill each other. A building is nothing more than a pile of stones. God or Allah doesn't inhabit them, even though Catholics, Joos, and Muslims would have you believe otherwise. All of those religions have a rule about worshiping idols, yet they worship these sites and buildings as if they were God.

Some would argue that these sites are testaments of their faith. This is the wrong kind of thinking. Their faith should be a testament of their faith. Does a building or sacred rock make me a True Christian™? The answer is no. I am a True Christian™ because I have faith in God.

There seems to be too many different versions of Islam, much like there are too many versions of Christianity. Early Christians indeed fought each other over who was right, but that was nearly 2000 years ago. There may still be fighting going on, but it isn't with automatic machine guns.

Sunni, Shiites, etc., they fight each other, while saying that the rest of the world are the real enemies. It's time for those that believe that killing civilians is wrong to step up take control. Dictators and zealots can only keep control by the will of the people. Fear is not an option. A few thousand with guns are telling millions how to think and act. If the Muslim people truly want peace, they have to step up and take it. It won't be offered.

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

First, there is no monopoly in Islam. Second, the Koran is not a manual that you can open and follow the steps.
Looking at your reply, OnYourKnees, you are kinda right. The verse is open to interpretation, but is it vague?? No.
To interpret Koran, you cannot just look at that very single verse and come up with the interpretation. You have to look at several things including the reason the verse was revealed and other parts of the Koran. Also, you have to look at the life of the prophet.

OnYourKnees:
Again, you are right when you said the verse was open to interpretation. Most Muslims, if not all, from the time of the prophet until now agreed on the interpretation I have provided.

Dr. Davidson:
I am not here to discuss politics. If you haven't noticed, all Muslim terrorists are being chased and prosecuted here in Saudi Arabia.
Regarding your question. Anyone is welcomed to interpret the Koran. All Muslim scholars mentioned at one point of their life that they are not perfect, and if you think we have made a mistake come and correct us. Looking at Islamic history, there were regular women who came forward and corrected scholars.

Dr. Davidson, you also said, and I quote: "So, according you your book, it is still acceptable to attack and screw over average Americans."
You are wrong, because killing civilians is not allowed in Islam.

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Look at (Koran 9:4):
[4] (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

I think this answers one of your concerns.

Here's the question... What does, "failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you," mean to the average Muslim? Does that mean that since the rest of the world recognizes the state of Israel, we have failed them and aided people against them? The terms of not fulfilling terms is rather vague. Stepping on their toe could be considered a slight worthy of nullifying a contract.

Think about it. Muslim terrorists plan attacks against the US every day, when it was a few people who ticked off a few sheikhs. Also, you'll notice that the verse above says, "with whom ye have entered into alliance?" Very few countries in the middle east have entered into alliances with any other country, much less the US. So, according you your book, it is still acceptable to attack and screw over average Americans.

I do have a question though. What is the literacy level in most middle eastern countries? The cathylicks used to forbid the average people from learning to read, so that their church could maintain a monopoly on religion and power. Are most of these people having to listen to a sheikh to get their spiritual knowledge?

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

That's the point, you can't make an objective judgment about who's an unbeliever or who broke what first. For instance, a man might have forgotton to pray towards Mecca the fifth time in a day, making him an unbeliever. Therefore, because of one small mistake, you're entitled to break off any agreements. Analogous for breaking treaties.
In other words, as for deciding whether or not someone's an unbeliever or an agreement-breaker, in the Qu'ran this is arbitrary.

I've tried to explain to Shert that the language of the verse is not specific and open to interpretation, but he apparently doesn't want to hear that.

Shert, when writing a law (those verses are considered law), the language used must be extremely precise. That precision is lacking.

[Brother John]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

You see, in my example, I claimed that homosexuality is allowed in Christianity and I didn't provide any proof or references.

Then, you answered my claim with verses in the Bible that refutes my claim.

Now, after you refuted my claim, I would be an ignorant idiot if I still claim that Homosexuality is allowed in Christianity unless I provide a proof.

You see, you made claims about Islam, let me quote here:
"Sherm, your Qu'ran does tell you that it is okay to lie to "unbelievers" and break treaties.."

And just like you, I provided verses from the Koran that refutes your claim that its ok to break treaties whenever we want.

Just like you proved to me that Homosexuality is prohibited in Christianity, can you prove to me that its OK for us Muslims to lie to unbelievers and break treaties?? Because I provided verses from the Koran that says its not ok to break treaties unless they do first or aid enemies against us.

That's the point, you can't make an objective judgment about who's an unbeliever or who broke what first. For instance, a man might have forgotton to pray towards Mecca the fifth time in a day, making him an unbeliever. Therefore, because of one small mistake, you're entitled to break off any agreements. Analogous for breaking treaties.
In other words, as for deciding whether or not someone's an unbeliever or an agreement-breaker, in the Qu'ran this is arbitrary.

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

You see, in my example, I claimed that homosexuality is allowed in Christianity and I didn't provide any proof or references.

Then, you answered my claim with verses in the Bible that refutes my claim.

Now, after you refuted my claim, I would be an ignorant idiot if I still claim that Homosexuality is allowed in Christianity unless I provide a proof.

You see, you made claims about Islam, let me quote here:
"Sherm, your Qu'ran does tell you that it is okay to lie to "unbelievers" and break treaties.."

And just like you, I provided verses from the Koran that refutes your claim that its ok to break treaties whenever we want.

Just like you proved to me that Homosexuality is prohibited in Christianity, can you prove to me that its OK for us Muslims to lie to unbelievers and break treaties?? Because I provided verses from the Koran that says its not ok to break treaties unless they do first or aid enemies against us.