[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

You are a confused lad, but apparently you come by it honestly.

I'm sorry I don't have time to address all of your concerns, but let's start with the basics. When the Children of Israel murdered God's propriation for sin (Jesus), God's covenant with Israel breeched and remained "in limbo" until a nation of righteousness arose across the sea. That would be the United States, history's most powerful state. It was during the breech in God's covenant that the false religion of Mohammedanism arose, as Satan's attempt to capitalize on a temporary shift in God's allegiances. It's all really just a spiritual realignment that explains where we're at today.

What this means for you, Mr. Shert, is that you're on the wrong side of God's fence and damned to eternal torment unless you abandon your preference for sin. Jesus awaits your prayer of confession.

LarryLee:

What happened to my reply to you?? Why was it deleted??
The reply I am quoting, is responding to my reply to you which is deleted.

[Larry Lee]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

You are a confused lad, but apparently you come by it honestly.

I'm sorry I don't have time to address all of your concerns, but let's start with the basics. When the Children of Israel murdered God's propriation for sin (Jesus), God's covenant with Israel breeched and remained "in limbo" until a nation of righteousness arose across the sea. That would be the United States, history's most powerful state. It was during the breech in God's covenant that the false religion of Mohammedanism arose, as Satan's attempt to capitalize on a temporary shift in God's allegiances. It's all really just a spiritual realignment that explains where we're at today.

What this means for you, Mr. Shert, is that you're on the wrong side of God's fence and damned to eternal torment unless you abandon your preference for sin. Jesus awaits your prayer of confession.

[Larry Lee]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Mr. Shert, it's good you're sharing with us the peculiarities of your false religion, but frankly, the greatest testiment to our Lord's grace and power lies in the conduct of His Chosen Nation, the United States. No more righteous nation has ever existed before, as I'm sure you will agree (especially when we compare the United States with lawless places like Iraq).

Are you prepared yet to accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Islam didn't exist in the year 10.

Apparently, Allah didn't, either.

Now, you're saying that your religion indicates that you are not subject to anything but Islamic law. That means that all Muslims will attempt to enforce Shari'a Law in any nation they enter, and believe they have a right to do so.

It also means that Muslims must desire conquest of the world, in order that their laws may be enforced everywhere.

Does this not make Islam a religion of invasion and conquest? Does this not make Muslims a threat to the peace of any civilized nation?

I knew you were going to address these concerns. Here are the answers.

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=13363

ِAnd if you are too lazy to read the whole thing, then it basically says:
1 - If you are in a Non-Muslim country and cannot fulfill your Islamic duties then it is your obligation to immigrate to a Muslim country.
2 - If you can fulfill your Islamic duties in a Non-Muslim country and feel safe doing them, then it is okay to live there.

I am sure the above answers your questions about conquest, etc, etc..

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Dr. Davidson:
In one of your posts, you accused Islam of have no freedom of Religion. I am sure you used that as a bad thing. When I quoted to you the bible that shows no freedom of religion AND killing whoever preaches about different religion. You said that this is against secular laws, so we don't do it.

If I was one of the 10%, then I would die following Islam.

Is any laws in the Koran Obsolete?? No.


OnYourKnees:
Islam gave us laws, and told us to follow them. Whether its year 10 or 9000.
Bible gave you laws, and told you to follow secular laws!!

If a Muslim doesn't follow Islamic Law, he will be punished.

Let me quote something from Islamic website about following Islam and Sharia:

"
“And whosoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the Kaafiroon (i.e. disbelievers — of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allaah’s Law)”[al-Maa'idah 5:44]
If the ruler judges according to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), it becomes obligatory to obey him and haraam to go against him or to rebel against him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination”[al-Nisaa’ 4:59]
If the ruler judges by something other than that which Allaah has revealed, or he enjoins disobedience to Allaah, then we should not hear and obey. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“The Muslim is obliged to hear and obey whether he likes it or dislikes it, unless he is commanded to disobey (Allaah), in which case he should not hear and obey.”(Narrated by Muslim, 1839)

"


You also said "So then you also must agree that Sharia law is obsolete, as millions of Muslims live in countries with other laws, and follow those laws."
I don't know how many times I need to tell you that you judge a religion by its sources, not the actions of its followers.
As you may have noticed, I am not debating about what the Bible teaches, not what the followers do.

Again:
Islam gave us laws, and told us to follow them. Whether its year 10 or 9000.
Bible gave you laws, and told you to follow secular laws!!

Islam didn't exist in the year 10.

Apparently, Allah didn't, either.

Now, you're saying that your religion indicates that you are not subject to anything but Islamic law. That means that all Muslims will attempt to enforce Shari'a Law in any nation they enter, and believe they have a right to do so.

It also means that Muslims must desire conquest of the world, in order that their laws may be enforced everywhere.

Does this not make Islam a religion of invasion and conquest? Does this not make Muslims a threat to the peace of any civilized nation?

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Dr. Davidson:
In one of your posts, you accused Islam of have no freedom of Religion. I am sure you used that as a bad thing. When I quoted to you the bible that shows no freedom of religion AND killing whoever preaches about different religion. You said that this is against secular laws, so we don't do it.

If I was one of the 10%, then I would die following Islam.

Is any laws in the Koran Obsolete?? No.


OnYourKnees:
Islam gave us laws, and told us to follow them. Whether its year 10 or 9000.
Bible gave you laws, and told you to follow secular laws!!

If a Muslim doesn't follow Islamic Law, he will be punished.

Let me quote something from Islamic website about following Islam and Sharia:

"
“And whosoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the Kaafiroon (i.e. disbelievers — of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allaah’s Law)”[al-Maa'idah 5:44]
If the ruler judges according to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), it becomes obligatory to obey him and haraam to go against him or to rebel against him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination”[al-Nisaa’ 4:59]
If the ruler judges by something other than that which Allaah has revealed, or he enjoins disobedience to Allaah, then we should not hear and obey. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“The Muslim is obliged to hear and obey whether he likes it or dislikes it, unless he is commanded to disobey (Allaah), in which case he should not hear and obey.”(Narrated by Muslim, 1839)

"


You also said "So then you also must agree that Sharia law is obsolete, as millions of Muslims live in countries with other laws, and follow those laws."
I don't know how many times I need to tell you that you judge a religion by its sources, not the actions of its followers.
As you may have noticed, I am not debating about what the Bible teaches, not what the followers do.

Again:
Islam gave us laws, and told us to follow them. Whether its year 10 or 9000.
Bible gave you laws, and told you to follow secular laws!!

[OnYourKnees]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

If you want to understand it that way, thats fine to me.

Following the same argument:

You guys accepted that fact that the Bible orders Christians to follow Secular Laws, even though these secular laws contradicts the Bible in MANY ways.

Thus, for the Bible to order you to follow something really different from the bible, therefore, the Bible laws are not perfect. And BY DEFINITION bible laws are obsolete.
Case Closed.

You are not at all following the same argument. You're being wilfully vexatious on this subject.

Of course, if Biblical laws are obsolete, and most of those are what Islam is founded upon, where does that leave Islamic law?

What kind of regulations??
I only see Christians going against Abortion and Homosexuality laws in the US. I have never seen Christians trying to enforce Slavery, Stoning, Killing people who preach about different religions, killing animals that worship demons and other things in the bible.

How I see it, is that you guys know that some of the Bible laws are obsolete, like the above, and you are using the "secular laws" excuse to not follow them.

So then you also must agree that Sharia law is obsolete, as millions of Muslims live in countries with other laws, and follow those laws.

Correct?

[Rev. Dr. Davidson]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

How I see it, is that you guys know that some of the Bible laws are obsolete, like the above, and you are using the "secular laws" excuse to not follow them.

In my case, and I can't speak for feel-good Christians, I support enforcement of all God's laws. The only problem is that True Christians™ are in the minority.

Think of it this way. How many different sects of Islam are there? There are more than a few. What if those who actually followed the Koran were in the minority all of a sudden? Would 10% or less of your population rise up against the rest, or would you work your hardest to try and change those laws against you following your faith?

As for the obsolete argument, do you believe there are laws in the Koran that are obsolete? If you do, does that not make you unworthy of calling yourself true to your faith?

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

No, the Bible just doesn't propagate anarchy in that sense. Those who propose laws other than those stated in the Bible shall eventually be smitten. It is not a case of complementation, it is a case of regulation, in other words a different case altogether than that of the Qu'ran and the hadith.

What kind of regulations??
I only see Christians going against Abortion and Homosexuality laws in the US. I have never seen Christians trying to enforce Slavery, Stoning, Killing people who preach about different religions, killing animals that worship demons and other things in the bible.

How I see it, is that you guys know that some of the Bible laws are obsolete, like the above, and you are using the "secular laws" excuse to not follow them.

[Brother John]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

If you want to understand it that way, thats fine to me.

Following the same argument:

You guys accepted that fact that the Bible orders Christians to follow Secular Laws, even though these secular laws contradicts the Bible in MANY ways.

Thus, for the Bible to order you to follow something really different from the bible, therefore, the Bible laws are not perfect. And BY DEFINITION bible laws are obsolete.
Case Closed.

No, the Bible just doesn't propagate anarchy in that sense. Those who propose laws other than those stated in the Bible shall eventually be smitten. It is not a case of complementation, it is a case of regulation, in other words a different case altogether than that of the Qu'ran and the hadith.

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

And if you accept the fact that the Qu'ran needs the Hadith to be understood correctly..
Then BY DEFINITION, it would be incomplete. And thus it cannot be perfect!
Case closed.

If you want to understand it that way, thats fine to me.

Following the same argument:

You guys accepted that fact that the Bible orders Christians to follow Secular Laws, even though these secular laws contradicts the Bible in MANY ways.

Thus, for the Bible to order you to follow something really different from the bible, therefore, the Bible laws are not perfect. And BY DEFINITION bible laws are obsolete.
Case Closed.

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

If I misunderstood your argument, please enlighten me with more details.

You simply seem totally incapable of understanding it.
And it cannot be explained much clearer.

That isn't very strange though.. The Holy KJV1611 states:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
For they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14

And if you accept the fact that the Qu'ran needs the Hadith to be understood correctly..
Then BY DEFINITION, it would be incomplete. And thus it cannot be perfect!
Case closed.

Do you have shortbuses for your kind over there in camelland?

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

Are you stupid in some way? Seriously?
GOD commands us to follow secular law, are you saying that to follow the will of God, we must disobey Him?

Did you not get the part about following secular law?

The only contradiction is in your mind.

Thats exactly what I am saying. Obviously, most secular laws around the world go against the Bible in some way, whether they prohibit something the Bible didn't like slavery or killing people, or allow something the Bible prohibits like homosexuality.
So, to obey God and follow secular laws, You will also disobey him by following his own commands!!

God spoke through them, thus it was God speaking, and not people.
The Holy Bible, in the correct version, the KJV1611, is perfect and dictated by God Himself.
It is God who was speaking through the prophets, and Jesus was God, and it is God who tells us what He spoke through said prophets.
Simple.

Thats what you believe!!


You're dodging the whole argument, obviously you cannot answer it.

I am not dodging anything, unlike some of you, I answer all your questions.

Your whole argument is:
If the Hadith is necessary to understand the Koran, then why isn't the Hadith included in the Koran??
If the Koran is perfect, then why do you need other sources??

I think I summarized your argument, right??
Now, allow me to answer these argument by copy/paste from my previous posts.

Copy/Paste:
"Koran is words of God, so, we cannot include history in it."
That answers why the Hadith is not included.

Copy/Paste:
" Koran, instructed us to look at the Hadith whenever there is trouble.
So, if there is a confusion, due to people, they are instructed by the Koran to look at the Hadith.
Thus, two different sources."
That answers why the Hadith is important to understand Koran.


If I misunderstood your argument, please enlighten me with more details.

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

True Christians who follow completely different paths due to different secular laws!! How is that not changing??

Are you stupid in some way? Seriously?
GOD commands us to follow secular law, are you saying that to follow the will of God, we must disobey Him?

You also have a choice here:
1 - You either follow the Bible and kill people.
2 - You either follow the Bible and not kill those people.

Did you not get the part about following secular law?

Either Choice contradicts with the Bible!! Sounds perfect, doesn't it??

The only contradiction is in your mind.

Finally,
Koran is words of God, so, we cannot include history in it. Unlike the Bible that contains words of Jesus, and stuff written by MANY people over a LONG period of time.

God spoke through them, thus it was God speaking, and not people.
The Holy Bible, in the correct version, the KJV1611, is perfect and dictated by God Himself.
It is God who was speaking through the prophets, and Jesus was God, and it is God who tells us what He spoke through said prophets.
Simple.

Since the Koran is words of God, and Hadith is history. They are different sources. Cool??
Koran, instructed us to look at the Hadith whenever there is trouble.
So, if there is a confusion, due to people, they are instructed by the Koran to look at the Hadith.
Thus, two different sources.

You're dodging the whole argument, obviously you cannot answer it.

[shert]

Re: Dr. Davidson and Koran

True Christians who follow completely different paths due to different secular laws!! How is that not changing??

You also have a choice here:
1 - You either follow the Bible and kill people.
2 - You either follow the Bible and not kill those people.

Either Choice contradicts with the Bible!! Sounds perfect, doesn't it??

Here is another conversation:
Lord: Why didn't you kill Homosexuals?
TC: We followed your word and didn't kill them.
Lord: I told you to kill them.
TC: I know, but you also told us to follow secular laws!!
Lord: You still didn't carry my commands and kill those Homosexuals.
TC: If you are omniscient, then why did you tell us to follow such laws??
Lord: !!
TC: I either follow your commands and kill those people, and I am doomed.
TC: Or either follow your, other, commands and not kill them, and I am doomed.

What a pleasant place to be in!!

Finally,
Koran is words of God, so, we cannot include history in it. Unlike the Bible that contains words of Jesus, and stuff written by MANY people over a LONG period of time.

Since the Koran is words of God, and Hadith is history. They are different sources. Cool??
Koran, instructed us to look at the Hadith whenever there is trouble.
So, if there is a confusion, due to people, they are instructed by the Koran to look at the Hadith.
Thus, two different sources.