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  • I Love Science
    Confirmed Enemy of God
    BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
    • Jun 2010
    • 6

    #1

    I Can Disprove Your God!

    Why the Christian God is Impossible

    Before you rush to any conclusions about "faith" and "divine transcendence" see my last point.



    Introduction
    Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.

    Proving a universal negative
    It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.
    I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

    Defining YHWH
    Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
    God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.
    These attributes of God are related by the Bible, which Christians believe to be the perfect and true Word of God.
    One verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.

    Perfection seeks even more perfection
    What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

    Perfection begets imperfection
    But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
    What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

    The Freewill Argument
    The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.
    Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.
    Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
    Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?
    The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

    All-good God knowingly creates future suffering
    God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

    Infinite punishment for finite sins
    God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

    Belief more important than action
    Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

    Perfection's imperfect revelation
    The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

    Contradictory justice
    One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.

    Contradictory history
    The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

    Unfulfilled prophecy
    The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.
    The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.

    The Omniscient changes the future
    A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.

    The Omniscient is surprised
    A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.
    We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.

    The conclusion of the matter
    I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.
    Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:
    • "You are a fool for denying the existence of the IPU. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned."

    If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.
    As for me and my house, we shall choose reality.
  • I Love Science
    Confirmed Enemy of God
    BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
    • Jun 2010
    • 6

    #2
    Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

    Also, i would like to point out that simply locking this post or saying "you are going to hell" is not helping the matter whatsoever and is simply proving to me that you have no solid arguments for the existence of your "God"

    Comment

    • Benedict A. Davis
      Winning Souls in his Winnebago
      True Christian™
      • May 2010
      • 3900

      #3
      Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

      FIRSTLY let me compliment you om a lovely cut and paste job, well done.
      2ndly why not stop by the introduction forum and Make an Introduction , tell us a bit about yourself, maybe tell us your favorite verse in the KJV Bible.
      Your rights are listed here when on this forum and Noobs please read this.
      sigpic 1 Chronicles 16:15
      Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant.
      Proverbs 30:5,6: Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
      Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

      Comment

      • I Love Science
        Confirmed Enemy of God
        BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
        • Jun 2010
        • 6

        #4
        Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

        Yes i realise it is a cut and paste job on the most part, but i thought it would still be quite relevant. Also, you simply avoided my post.
        Refer to Post #2

        Comment

        • Benedict A. Davis
          Winning Souls in his Winnebago
          True Christian™
          • May 2010
          • 3900

          #5
          Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

          no i was writing a reply while you were impatiently typing another comment, have you made an introduction yet?
          sigpic 1 Chronicles 16:15
          Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant.
          Proverbs 30:5,6: Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
          Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

          Comment

          • I Love Science
            Confirmed Enemy of God
            BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
            • Jun 2010
            • 6

            #6
            Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

            I have read your introduction forum, i would rather not post on it. Also i would like to say in advance that you will probably think that i am not thinking for myself since i copied and pasted, i know of most of these theorys posted and accept them, however i couldnt be bothered with the effort of typing them all out, of course i would just copy them.
            Also if someone would post i could have an educated discussion with and not just "praise God or go to hell" which will probably come up sooner or later, i would appreciate it.

            Comment

            • Benedict A. Davis
              Winning Souls in his Winnebago
              True Christian™
              • May 2010
              • 3900

              #7
              Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

              I had the common courtesy to read your treatise, did you take time to read the threads I sent you?
              sigpic 1 Chronicles 16:15
              Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant.
              Proverbs 30:5,6: Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
              Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

              Comment

              • I Love Science
                Confirmed Enemy of God
                BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
                • Jun 2010
                • 6

                #8
                Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

                I did skim read the majority of it, stopping to read the bits i thought were interesting.

                Comment

                • Benedict A. Davis
                  Winning Souls in his Winnebago
                  True Christian™
                  • May 2010
                  • 3900

                  #9
                  Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

                  if I am to talk with you I just want to know you will read it and not just not accept it out of hand...what is it you want to know?
                  sigpic 1 Chronicles 16:15
                  Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant.
                  Proverbs 30:5,6: Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
                  Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

                  Comment

                  • I Love Science
                    Confirmed Enemy of God
                    BANNED from Landover -- Aeternal Damnation Assured
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 6

                    #10
                    Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

                    Can you offer an argument to disprove mine? That is what i want because i have noticed the majority of your arguments are simply based on a book of unknown origin that was most likely written by people who at the time thought the world was flat. Not too convincing when you think about it.

                    Comment

                    • Benedict A. Davis
                      Winning Souls in his Winnebago
                      True Christian™
                      • May 2010
                      • 3900

                      #11
                      Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

                      Are you wanting a simple answer to those ramblings about some fun and fluffy God that some believe in .We truly believe the statement of ''Fear of God''.Our God is a vengeful God that will kill thousands, doesn't profwss love for all and we know these things to be true because they are written in the Bible. We believe the KJV 1611 Bible to be the true word.
                      sigpic 1 Chronicles 16:15
                      Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant.
                      Proverbs 30:5,6: Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
                      Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

                      Comment

                      • Pastor Ezekiel
                        Putting the "stud" back in Bible Study
                         
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 78556

                        #12
                        Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

                        Originally posted by I Love Science View Post
                        I have read your introduction forum, i would rather not post on it. Also i would like to say in advance that you will probably think that i am not thinking for myself since i copied and pasted, i know of most of these theorys posted and accept them, however i couldnt be bothered with the effort of typing them all out, of course i would just copy them.
                        Also if someone would post i could have an educated discussion with and not just "praise God or go to hell" which will probably come up sooner or later, i would appreciate it.
                        I can't be bothered with you, lazy hatemonger.
                        Who Will Jesus Damn?

                        Here is a partial list from just a few scripture verses:

                        Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8), All Liars (Revelation 21:8)

                        Need Pastoral Advice? Contact me privately at PastorEzekiel@landoverbaptist.net TODAY!!

                        Comment

                        • James Hutchins
                          True Christian™
                          Just a Regular Nice Guy
                           
                          • Jun 2009
                          • 29457

                          #13
                          Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

                          Originally posted by I Love Science View Post
                          Can you offer an argument to disprove mine? That is what i want because i have noticed the majority of your arguments are simply based on a book of unknown origin that was most likely written by people who at the time thought the world was flat. Not too convincing when you think about it.
                          I did skim read the majority of it, stopping to read the bits i thought were interesting. Unfortunately, these are the only parts that were deemed interesting:

                          Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny.


                          God is perfectly just,
                          Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
                          Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
                          Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
                          Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
                          Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
                          Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

                          Comment

                          • handmaiden
                            Is a good, decent True Christian™ lady
                            True Christian™
                            • May 2010
                            • 11606

                            #14
                            Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

                            All-good God knowingly creates future suffering
                            God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                            The Bible never said that God was "perfectly compassionate". Humans create suffering by their own actions. You have to believe that statement since you don't believe God exists and you observe the presence of suffering.

                            God gave us a shot at the good life with no suffering and we blew it. Yes, God knew we would blow it, but He gave us life anyway.

                            Many parents who carry genes that can adversely effect their children choose to have such children anyway. They know it will hurt them to see the child suffer, but they believe the child will be grateful for the gift of life and would not wish that it had not been born after it had, in fact, been born. Few people really wish for non-existence because it's so hard to conceptualize anyway. Still, that doesn't stop atheists from trying to rationalize away God.

                            Atheist claim that God is imaginary. But it takes more imagination to imagine away God.

                            Correctly Yours,

                            Handmaiden
                            His left hand should be under my head, and his right hand should embrace me.

                            Guns For God and the Economy

                            Comment

                            • Justin Z
                              Forum Member
                              Forum Member
                              • Jun 2010
                              • 130

                              #15
                              Re: I Can Disprove Your God!

                              Originally posted by I Love Science View Post
                              Can you offer an argument to disprove mine? That is what i want because i have noticed the majority of your arguments are simply based on a book of unknown origin that was most likely written by people who at the time thought the world was flat. Not too convincing when you think about it.
                              The world is flat. We stay on due to intelligent pulling. For a science guy you sure are dumb. Ever heard of "I will travel to the ends of the Earth?"
                              If the Earth was round then there would be no ends, right?

                              Check and mate.

                              Comment

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