[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

So it is the reader that will judge what the Bible is "really" trying to say? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Where in the Bible (quote please) does God give the reader the authority to interpret it as they please?

So, my friend, you're saying that you don't judge, think about or try to interpret the bible? You follow it word for word, even when there are obvious conflicts of times and events?

The bible is a teaching, yes, however it cannot be taken as a direct manual to follow. It teaches morals on how to live your life.

Of course, there is nowhere in the bible that says this. But for that matter, there is nowhere that states "This book must be read and followed word for word". This is where the readers interpretation comes into play.

A True Christian should know this.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

When you read a text, any text, the information there is more than what is literally printed in the black and white. Its the context that is read between the lines, the message the work conveys.

Reading between the lines? Please explain how that is different from inserting whatever meaning you want to find.

Taking scripture in context means taking account of the surrounding text.

If you read the bible word for word, you will see numerous conflicts and contradictions.

That is an outrageous lie! You have just outed yourself as an atheist troll. There are no contradictions in the Bible, when the text is understood in context.

God's Word is kept pure, as He promised.

This is where the readers judgment comes into play.

Billy Reuben, I would appreciate it if you were to show me where my context and interpretation of these readings falters. Because I believe that you are the one taking individual quotations literally and out of context.

Of course I take the Bible literally. God said that scripture is not open to private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). You are the one who is asserting that your own private interpretation is the way to go.

God doesn't speak in riddles. The meaning of the text is plain.

Name one place where I have taken scripture out of context.

To answer your question, you said this:

John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

How can you all call yourselves true Christians when so many of you are so willing to immediately post hateful remarks about various races dependent upon their skin colour, their cultural background and where they live.

What does the verse you cited have to do with your comment? Our brother in this verse refers to our fellow Christians, not everyone in the world. Please learn to look words up in the dictionary.

You also said this:

Here marks the point where followers of the true faith from areas of god's earth not residing in Hicksville Tennessee can come and shine their colours. Romans 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another

If you would read the whole chapter of Romans, you would learn that Romans 12 is about how we are supposed to treat our fellow Christians.

This is what I mean when I say you are skipping around from one out-of-context verse to the next, relying on your own made-up definitions of words, to support your hippie philosophy and private interpretation.

Of course your context to you could be pointing you down this path of thinking.

My "context" is that the Bible is God's Word to man. It isn't a pick-and-choose salad buffet. We are to read and believe the whole thing.

The whole concept of religion is to open one's mind and appreciate the world around yourself.

Please cite scripture to back up this assertion.

Having such closed in, segregated views on the world and how it should be run is not in the Bible's teachings.

Yes, it is.

2 Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2 Cor. 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2 Cor. 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2 Cor. 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Genesis 16:5 The lord judge between me and thee.

So now you stooping to quoting pieces of verses rather than the whole thing. Your arguments are really getting pathetic, "doctor".

Lev 19:15 In righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

And before you all try to tell me how to interpret the good book and cast judgment on me,

We don't want you to "interpret" the Bible at all. We just want you to read it and believe it, and stop trying to "interpret" your way out of the parts you don't like.

how about you do something about your own followers on this website who are repetitively sinning, disrespecting others, causing conflict based on race, gender, and sexuality.

We are only sinning based on your made-up interpretation of sin, so I am not worried about it. We remain true to the Word of God.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

DEU 14:11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
DEU 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
DEU 14:13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
DEU 14:14 And every raven after his kind,
DEU 14:15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
DEU 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
DEU 14:17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
DEU 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

PS.92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."
ISA.57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."


The bible is a text that cannot be taken literally, it must be interpreted and the reader must justify its teachings.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Of course, there is nowhere in the bible that says this. But for that matter, there is nowhere that states "This book must be read and followed word for word".

Yes, there is. A True Christian should know this.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Psalm 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2nd Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2nd Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

You've said it yourself with your own misguided quotations. It is an interpretation of Gods word. Not a literal account.

In all honesty your group is starting to sound very fanatical group of extremists. You don't represent our following at all, and until I see something positive come from these ranks my opinion won't change.

I don't expect you to agree with me, because thats obviously not going to happen. However I, here and now, accuse you of misconstruing the Lords word for your own misguided gain. And not only that, you have tried your hardest to slur the words of another member of your own following.

Again I point out the references to loving your brother, which you keep attacking me over.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

The bible is a text that cannot be taken literally, it must be interpreted and the reader must justify its teachings.

No, those passages must be taken in context. You have proven your ability to copy and paste out-of-context quotes from atheist websites, and little else.

PSA 145:9; JER 13:14

Not a contradiction. See Romans 9:18.

EXO 15:3; ROM 15:33

Not a contradiction. God creates both war and peace, both good and evil. (Is 45:7)

DEU 14:11-18

I'm not seeing anything resembling a contradiction there. You need to explain this one.

PS.92:12; ISA.57:1

Not a contradiction. Both good and bad can happen to the unrighteous.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

You've said it yourself with your own misguided quotations. It is an interpretation of Gods word. Not a literal account.

You sound very confused, friend. The Bible is a literal account, NOT open to private interpretation, and I have given you the proof of that straight from the Bible.

In all honesty your group is starting to sound very fanatical group of extremists.

That's the first nice thing you've said about us yet. God wants us to be on FIRE for Him. Rev 3:15-16

You don't represent our following at all

Well praise God for that! I don't want to represent a following of lukewarm, make it up as you go, false Christians.

until I see something positive come from these ranks my opinion won't change.

You've seen nothing but positive coming from us. We are here to spread the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why are you here?

However I, here and now, accuse you of misconstruing the Lords word for your own misguided gain.

When have we ever done that?

And not only that, you have tried your hardest to slur the words of another member of your own following.

When have we ever done that? If you are referring to yourself, then my question still stands. Liberal make it up as you go so-called "Christians" are not real Christians. Matthew 7:21

Again I point out the references to loving your brother, which you keep attacking me over.

We do love our brothers. We aren't attacking anything. We are merely correcting your "interpretation" of those verses.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

All i'm saying is that even though a text tells you it is the truth, how can one take it as truth?
I'm not questioning the will of God, just questioning the means of interpretation, because that is exactly what religion is about.

I understand that you are all trying to prove a point with this forum, however what I can't fathom is how you can justify, hypothetically or not, how a singular text can be taken for gospel.

Quotes from the Bible aside, what makes you believe that the King James Version is the "True" words of god?

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

All i'm saying is that even though a text tells you it is the truth, how can one take it as truth?

Because God promised to preserve His Words for us forever and keep them pure (Psalm 12:6-7). That means there MUST be an infallible book available to us that contains His Word.

I'm not questioning the will of God, just questioning the means of interpretation, because that is exactly what religion is about.

No, religion is about doing God's Will. There are no "means of interpretation". You need to just read the Bible and believe it.

I understand that you are all trying to prove a point with this forum,

You got that right. We are trying to make people aware of the need for Salvation, and the Way to attain it. Mankind is in a wretched state, Hellbound and unable to save itself. Only through repentance and acceptance of God's free gift can anyone be saved.

however what I can't fathom is how you can justify, hypothetically or not, how a singular text can be taken for gospel.

The truth of the Bible is evident. Besides, any God that isn't capable of giving us an objective way to share His Truth wouldn't be much of a God at all. Even if the Bible didn't explicitly warn us not to rely on our own interpretation, it should be common sense that we should trust God's Words as they are plainly written.

Quotes from the Bible aside, what makes you believe that the King James Version is the "True" words of god?

This article is a good proof of the truth of the King James version.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Because God promised to preserve His Words for us forever and keep them pure (Psalm 12:6-7). That means there MUST be an infallible book available to us that contains His Word.

No, religion is about doing God's Will. There are no "means of interpretation". You need to just read the Bible and believe it.

You got that right. We are trying to make people aware of the need for Salvation, and the Way to attain it. Mankind is in a wretched state, Hellbound and unable to save itself. Only through repentance and acceptance of God's free gift can anyone be saved.

The truth of the Bible is evident. Besides, any God that isn't capable of giving us an objective way to share His Truth wouldn't be much of a God at all. Even if the Bible didn't explicitly warn us not to rely on our own interpretation, it should be common sense that we should trust God's Words as they are plainly written.


This article is a good proof of the truth of the King James version.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at every word you just typed. You replied with nothing more than what is known as Truism. This is no evidence. Saying Gods word is Gods word because God said so is not Evidence.

You believe in something because you have faith in it. What you people seem to hold is blind, home grown education with a really warped flavour to it. You even have seasoned Baptists such as myself questioning you.

The fact is, if God wanted to give his children a literal set of guidelines to live by, he would have at conception. And funnily enough, he did. Our hearts beat, our respiratory system feeds our blood with oxygen, we have one of the earths most efficient reproduction systems short of viruses and bacteria, and all this was coded into our beings before we are even granted a consciousness.

The bible is a non-literal interpretation of what God was trying to communicate to his followers, nothing more. We hold faith in this as we believe it to be the truth, however there is no historical, factual, or literary evidence that it is truth.

We believe, and its belief that drives us to be better people.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Saying Gods word is Gods word because God said so is not Evidence. ...
We hold faith in this as we believe it to be the truth, however there is no historical, factual, or literary evidence that it is truth.

Friend, when you have faith, you don't need evidence. The Bible is all the evidence I need.

If you think the Bible is an unreliable story book, then you are no Baptist. You are not even Christian. If the story of Adam and Eve is not a literal event, then the Bible's whole overarching theme of fall-sacrifice-redemption makes absolutely no sense.

Do you believe that the story of Jesus' resurrection was a historical account of literal bodily resurrection? That is, do you believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead?

Do you even believe that there was a historical Jesus, who preached the Gospel and performed miracles as described in the Bible?

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Juliette]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Now Juliette, i'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but the internet does not represent the users physical appearance. If I posted a picture of Jesus, you'd appreciate it, but it would not represent me.
Having a picture next to your display name holds no relevance to a persons appearance, gender, race, or any other attribute other than personal taste. If you knew your teachings you would see its a "representation" of the Virgin Mary.

All I see in your avatar is that Angelina harlot and I don't think she's much of a virgin.

Now,

I know the internet is sometimes not what it seems to be. But see it like this.

You surf to the forum of our church (Jesus his favorite Church) and create an account. That's some kind of character right?

You give that character the name of a man and the avatar of a woman.

I think you can safely state this being virtual crossdressing. Regardless what of who you are IRL.

So my original statement remains valid.

[Dr. Ernest C. Ville, D.C.S.]

Re: Australian Baptist following

First of all, "Doctor", I want to say that, if you *are* a real doctor, it is people like you who put such a tarnish on the label of "Doctor". I have put years of hard work into giving credit to my title and then people like you waltz along and ruin it all with a few simple run-and-hide postings. Good people like myself and Dr. Hovind have given our lives to research and studying and spreading the Gospel, and people like you can just run out, spend a few hundred thousand dollars and walk away with an "ivy league education" and a sense of superiority. Well I have news for you: the only favor that will do you on Judgment Day is cut you in line for Hell.

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at every word you just typed. You replied with nothing more than what is known as Truism. This is no evidence. Saying Gods word is Gods word because God said so is not Evidence.

So you at least admit that God's Word is True? At least we're getting someplace!

You believe in something because you have faith in it. What you people seem to hold is blind, home grown education with a really warped flavour to it. You even have seasoned Baptists such as myself questioning you.

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Praise Jesus that we have Faith! Indeed Faith is blind -- if it wasn't, then it wouldn't be Faith, and therefore we couldn't believe in Jesus!

The fact is, if God wanted to give his children a literal set of guidelines to live by, he would have at conception. And funnily enough, he did. Our hearts beat, our respiratory system feeds our blood with oxygen, we have one of the earths most efficient reproduction systems short of viruses and bacteria, and all this was coded into our beings before we are even granted a consciousness.

What the heck are you talking about? Jesus gave us a lot of things at birth that He doesn't want us to use. Are you suggesting children start fornicating right out of the womb? Although I do sort-of agree with you: Jesus did imbue certain people with the initial wherewithall to seek Him, the ones that He pre-chose to go to Heaven. So in that regard, anyways, you are right...

The bible is a non-literal interpretation of what God was trying to communicate to his followers, nothing more.

What is your evidence for this? I believe the good Pastor has already shown you our evidence to the contrary, the Bible itself! What can you show to match that, other than your own disconnected theory?

We hold faith in this as we believe it to be the truth, however there is no historical, factual, or literary evidence that it is truth.

Did you know that there is more historical, factual evidence to prove the Bible correct than ALL THE OTHER books in HISTORY.......combined?

We believe, and its belief that drives us to be better people.

I don't know what you believe, exactly, but please don't group me into your beliefs. Whatever they are, they are sure to get you nothing but a steamy Eternity...

[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Billy-Reuben, you totally misconstrue my words. I'm saying that there IS NO EVIDENCE of the Bible being historically accurate, however that is why Faith is required to follow it. From EVERY educated point of view it is evident that this is a text that requires more than the evidence to understand and believe, however 'claiming' that it is historically accurate because god promised us his word and theres one book to prove it, holds absolutely no water whatsoever.

Juliette, your arguments are flawed and your opinion is unnecessary.

Now Ernest, as I can see that we are on a similar wavelength, as you are actually ready to read through what i'm saying and produce an intelligent response other than simple truism.

I have put years of hard work into giving credit to my title and then people like you waltz along and ruin it all with a few simple run-and-hide postings

Being a 'Doctor' I would have thought you would realise that by the time I had finished posting it would have been roughly 3am here. "Run and Hide" posting? I think not. Its called sleep.

people like you can just run out, spend a few hundred thousand dollars and walk away with an "ivy league education" and a sense of superiority

Again, as a 'Doctor', you should know that to earn the title of PhD and to have continued your education to the point you can carry such a title, you have to know and love your work, and have total dedication to it. To say that I run in, spend the money, and just use it for the ego trip? Perhaps thats what your little high horse thinks, but it saddens me to think that you believe you are 'better' than someone else just because of slightly differing views. I bet your colleagues love you.

So you at least admit that God's Word is True? At least we're getting someplace!

Don't patronize me. I never said it wasn't. I'm just entering the debate asking for your own evidences of said 'truth'.

What the heck are you talking about? Jesus gave us a lot of things at birth that He doesn't want us to use. Are you suggesting children start fornicating right out of the womb? Although I do sort-of agree with you: Jesus did imbue certain people with the initial wherewithall to seek Him, the ones that He pre-chose to go to Heaven.

No, haha, if we could copulate straight from birth, i'm sure it would have made our global population quite a lot larger by now. Lucky for that 14 odd year time frame that develops our hormones and sexual organs to the point of functionability eh?

So in that regard, anyways, you are right...

Thank you. I'm glad to see that a follower who was not only home schooled from one source can actually see and process logic. Thank you.

What is your evidence for this? I believe the good Pastor has already shown you our evidence to the contrary, the Bible itself! What can you show to match that, other than your own disconnected theory?

My evidence is the lack of historical evidence. When evidence emerges that isn't written in the books pages itself, I might change my view. Again, Truism.

Did you know that there is more historical, factual evidence to prove the Bible correct than ALL THE OTHER books in HISTORY.......combined

Well start referencing then. Because I can assure you, thats not accurate. There is a lot of research done into it, but theres no hard historical evidence to back it up. In saying that though, the people who study the text to such an extent do not focus solely on the KJV bible, so claiming that one text is more factual than another still makes little sense.

I don't know what you believe, exactly, but please don't group me into your beliefs. Whatever they are, they are sure to get you nothing but a steamy Eternity...

What I believe holds absolutely no relevance to you, whether I believe the same or totally different to you. What I am doing here is creating a logical debate. I'm saying lets drop our blind faith for two seconds, and start talking hypothetically. Ask questions.

If a child does not question his teacher, then how does he learn?

[Nobar King]

Re: Australian Baptist following

So you at least admit that God's Word is True? At least we're getting someplace!

Don't patronize me. I never said it wasn't. I'm just entering the debate asking for your own evidences of said 'truth'.

So you're quiestioning our faith? And you think your faith is greater because you can muster up some kind of debate?