[Nobar King]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Thank you for your higher-than-thou attitude. This is when your true colors show, when being an Aussie with a PhD (presumably) doesn't drag your out of the moral gutter of hypocrisy.

What would we care about your beliefs? You obviously don't believe what Jesus wants, and are more want to believe what the secular liberals from Australia indoctrinate you with from the cradle. Even going to college doesn't free you from this destructive thought pattern.

[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Billy-Reuben, stop misinterpreting me. All you are seeing my argument as is an attack on your faith. This is not the case. Read more carefully,

What I am doing here is creating a logical debate. I'm saying lets drop our blind faith for two seconds, and start talking hypothetically. Ask questions.

If a child does not question his teacher, then how does he learn?

I am engaging in logical thought and debate. This is what scholars do daily.

And for your information, I did answer your questions, not directly to you granted, but I did answer.

What I believe holds absolutely no relevance to you

If I was to tell you what I believe, you would think that I am not worthy to breathe the air you exhale. It is the same feeling anyone visiting this place gets from you people.
I will not answer you with a spiel on what I believe. Just take it that I am a believer and leave it at that.

That's what I have been saying. You are the one who has been demanding evidence, like a child demanding candy from her parents.

Crudely, we are starting to think on the same level. There is no "evidence", just faith.

So therefore, based solely on 'faith', how can one prove its legitimacy?

That is the point of my argument.



And Nobar King, I hold the same regard for your arguments as I do for Juliette.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Billy-Reuben, you totally misconstrue my words.

If your words are being misconstrued, then perhaps you should put a little more thought into your posts and explain yourself a little more clearly.

I'm saying that there IS NO EVIDENCE of the Bible being historically accurate, however that is why Faith is required to follow it.

That's what I have been saying. You are the one who has been demanding evidence, like a child demanding candy from her parents.

From EVERY educated point of view it is evident that this is a text that requires more than the evidence to understand and believe

That is also what I have been saying, friend. It requires faith.

however 'claiming' that it is historically accurate because god promised us his word and theres one book to prove it, holds absolutely no water whatsoever.

Are you calling God a liar and a promise breaker?

All you do is attack our beliefs. You never answered my questions, so I will repeat them.

Do you believe that the story of Jesus' resurrection was a historical account of literal bodily resurrection? That is, do you believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead?

Do you even believe that there was a historical Jesus, who preached the Gospel and performed miracles as described in the Bible?

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Nobar King]

Re: Australian Baptist following

So you at least admit that God's Word is True? At least we're getting someplace!

Don't patronize me. I never said it wasn't. I'm just entering the debate asking for your own evidences of said 'truth'.

So you're quiestioning our faith? And you think your faith is greater because you can muster up some kind of debate?

[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Billy-Reuben, you totally misconstrue my words. I'm saying that there IS NO EVIDENCE of the Bible being historically accurate, however that is why Faith is required to follow it. From EVERY educated point of view it is evident that this is a text that requires more than the evidence to understand and believe, however 'claiming' that it is historically accurate because god promised us his word and theres one book to prove it, holds absolutely no water whatsoever.

Juliette, your arguments are flawed and your opinion is unnecessary.

Now Ernest, as I can see that we are on a similar wavelength, as you are actually ready to read through what i'm saying and produce an intelligent response other than simple truism.

I have put years of hard work into giving credit to my title and then people like you waltz along and ruin it all with a few simple run-and-hide postings

Being a 'Doctor' I would have thought you would realise that by the time I had finished posting it would have been roughly 3am here. "Run and Hide" posting? I think not. Its called sleep.

people like you can just run out, spend a few hundred thousand dollars and walk away with an "ivy league education" and a sense of superiority

Again, as a 'Doctor', you should know that to earn the title of PhD and to have continued your education to the point you can carry such a title, you have to know and love your work, and have total dedication to it. To say that I run in, spend the money, and just use it for the ego trip? Perhaps thats what your little high horse thinks, but it saddens me to think that you believe you are 'better' than someone else just because of slightly differing views. I bet your colleagues love you.

So you at least admit that God's Word is True? At least we're getting someplace!

Don't patronize me. I never said it wasn't. I'm just entering the debate asking for your own evidences of said 'truth'.

What the heck are you talking about? Jesus gave us a lot of things at birth that He doesn't want us to use. Are you suggesting children start fornicating right out of the womb? Although I do sort-of agree with you: Jesus did imbue certain people with the initial wherewithall to seek Him, the ones that He pre-chose to go to Heaven.

No, haha, if we could copulate straight from birth, i'm sure it would have made our global population quite a lot larger by now. Lucky for that 14 odd year time frame that develops our hormones and sexual organs to the point of functionability eh?

So in that regard, anyways, you are right...

Thank you. I'm glad to see that a follower who was not only home schooled from one source can actually see and process logic. Thank you.

What is your evidence for this? I believe the good Pastor has already shown you our evidence to the contrary, the Bible itself! What can you show to match that, other than your own disconnected theory?

My evidence is the lack of historical evidence. When evidence emerges that isn't written in the books pages itself, I might change my view. Again, Truism.

Did you know that there is more historical, factual evidence to prove the Bible correct than ALL THE OTHER books in HISTORY.......combined

Well start referencing then. Because I can assure you, thats not accurate. There is a lot of research done into it, but theres no hard historical evidence to back it up. In saying that though, the people who study the text to such an extent do not focus solely on the KJV bible, so claiming that one text is more factual than another still makes little sense.

I don't know what you believe, exactly, but please don't group me into your beliefs. Whatever they are, they are sure to get you nothing but a steamy Eternity...

What I believe holds absolutely no relevance to you, whether I believe the same or totally different to you. What I am doing here is creating a logical debate. I'm saying lets drop our blind faith for two seconds, and start talking hypothetically. Ask questions.

If a child does not question his teacher, then how does he learn?

[Dr. Ernest C. Ville, D.C.S.]

Re: Australian Baptist following

First of all, "Doctor", I want to say that, if you *are* a real doctor, it is people like you who put such a tarnish on the label of "Doctor". I have put years of hard work into giving credit to my title and then people like you waltz along and ruin it all with a few simple run-and-hide postings. Good people like myself and Dr. Hovind have given our lives to research and studying and spreading the Gospel, and people like you can just run out, spend a few hundred thousand dollars and walk away with an "ivy league education" and a sense of superiority. Well I have news for you: the only favor that will do you on Judgment Day is cut you in line for Hell.

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at every word you just typed. You replied with nothing more than what is known as Truism. This is no evidence. Saying Gods word is Gods word because God said so is not Evidence.

So you at least admit that God's Word is True? At least we're getting someplace!

You believe in something because you have faith in it. What you people seem to hold is blind, home grown education with a really warped flavour to it. You even have seasoned Baptists such as myself questioning you.

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Praise Jesus that we have Faith! Indeed Faith is blind -- if it wasn't, then it wouldn't be Faith, and therefore we couldn't believe in Jesus!

The fact is, if God wanted to give his children a literal set of guidelines to live by, he would have at conception. And funnily enough, he did. Our hearts beat, our respiratory system feeds our blood with oxygen, we have one of the earths most efficient reproduction systems short of viruses and bacteria, and all this was coded into our beings before we are even granted a consciousness.

What the heck are you talking about? Jesus gave us a lot of things at birth that He doesn't want us to use. Are you suggesting children start fornicating right out of the womb? Although I do sort-of agree with you: Jesus did imbue certain people with the initial wherewithall to seek Him, the ones that He pre-chose to go to Heaven. So in that regard, anyways, you are right...

The bible is a non-literal interpretation of what God was trying to communicate to his followers, nothing more.

What is your evidence for this? I believe the good Pastor has already shown you our evidence to the contrary, the Bible itself! What can you show to match that, other than your own disconnected theory?

We hold faith in this as we believe it to be the truth, however there is no historical, factual, or literary evidence that it is truth.

Did you know that there is more historical, factual evidence to prove the Bible correct than ALL THE OTHER books in HISTORY.......combined?

We believe, and its belief that drives us to be better people.

I don't know what you believe, exactly, but please don't group me into your beliefs. Whatever they are, they are sure to get you nothing but a steamy Eternity...

[Juliette]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Now Juliette, i'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but the internet does not represent the users physical appearance. If I posted a picture of Jesus, you'd appreciate it, but it would not represent me.
Having a picture next to your display name holds no relevance to a persons appearance, gender, race, or any other attribute other than personal taste. If you knew your teachings you would see its a "representation" of the Virgin Mary.

All I see in your avatar is that Angelina harlot and I don't think she's much of a virgin.

Now,

I know the internet is sometimes not what it seems to be. But see it like this.

You surf to the forum of our church (Jesus his favorite Church) and create an account. That's some kind of character right?

You give that character the name of a man and the avatar of a woman.

I think you can safely state this being virtual crossdressing. Regardless what of who you are IRL.

So my original statement remains valid.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Saying Gods word is Gods word because God said so is not Evidence. ...
We hold faith in this as we believe it to be the truth, however there is no historical, factual, or literary evidence that it is truth.

Friend, when you have faith, you don't need evidence. The Bible is all the evidence I need.

If you think the Bible is an unreliable story book, then you are no Baptist. You are not even Christian. If the story of Adam and Eve is not a literal event, then the Bible's whole overarching theme of fall-sacrifice-redemption makes absolutely no sense.

Do you believe that the story of Jesus' resurrection was a historical account of literal bodily resurrection? That is, do you believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead?

Do you even believe that there was a historical Jesus, who preached the Gospel and performed miracles as described in the Bible?

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Because God promised to preserve His Words for us forever and keep them pure (Psalm 12:6-7). That means there MUST be an infallible book available to us that contains His Word.

No, religion is about doing God's Will. There are no "means of interpretation". You need to just read the Bible and believe it.

You got that right. We are trying to make people aware of the need for Salvation, and the Way to attain it. Mankind is in a wretched state, Hellbound and unable to save itself. Only through repentance and acceptance of God's free gift can anyone be saved.

The truth of the Bible is evident. Besides, any God that isn't capable of giving us an objective way to share His Truth wouldn't be much of a God at all. Even if the Bible didn't explicitly warn us not to rely on our own interpretation, it should be common sense that we should trust God's Words as they are plainly written.


This article is a good proof of the truth of the King James version.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at every word you just typed. You replied with nothing more than what is known as Truism. This is no evidence. Saying Gods word is Gods word because God said so is not Evidence.

You believe in something because you have faith in it. What you people seem to hold is blind, home grown education with a really warped flavour to it. You even have seasoned Baptists such as myself questioning you.

The fact is, if God wanted to give his children a literal set of guidelines to live by, he would have at conception. And funnily enough, he did. Our hearts beat, our respiratory system feeds our blood with oxygen, we have one of the earths most efficient reproduction systems short of viruses and bacteria, and all this was coded into our beings before we are even granted a consciousness.

The bible is a non-literal interpretation of what God was trying to communicate to his followers, nothing more. We hold faith in this as we believe it to be the truth, however there is no historical, factual, or literary evidence that it is truth.

We believe, and its belief that drives us to be better people.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

All i'm saying is that even though a text tells you it is the truth, how can one take it as truth?

Because God promised to preserve His Words for us forever and keep them pure (Psalm 12:6-7). That means there MUST be an infallible book available to us that contains His Word.

I'm not questioning the will of God, just questioning the means of interpretation, because that is exactly what religion is about.

No, religion is about doing God's Will. There are no "means of interpretation". You need to just read the Bible and believe it.

I understand that you are all trying to prove a point with this forum,

You got that right. We are trying to make people aware of the need for Salvation, and the Way to attain it. Mankind is in a wretched state, Hellbound and unable to save itself. Only through repentance and acceptance of God's free gift can anyone be saved.

however what I can't fathom is how you can justify, hypothetically or not, how a singular text can be taken for gospel.

The truth of the Bible is evident. Besides, any God that isn't capable of giving us an objective way to share His Truth wouldn't be much of a God at all. Even if the Bible didn't explicitly warn us not to rely on our own interpretation, it should be common sense that we should trust God's Words as they are plainly written.

Quotes from the Bible aside, what makes you believe that the King James Version is the "True" words of god?

This article is a good proof of the truth of the King James version.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

All i'm saying is that even though a text tells you it is the truth, how can one take it as truth?
I'm not questioning the will of God, just questioning the means of interpretation, because that is exactly what religion is about.

I understand that you are all trying to prove a point with this forum, however what I can't fathom is how you can justify, hypothetically or not, how a singular text can be taken for gospel.

Quotes from the Bible aside, what makes you believe that the King James Version is the "True" words of god?

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

You've said it yourself with your own misguided quotations. It is an interpretation of Gods word. Not a literal account.

You sound very confused, friend. The Bible is a literal account, NOT open to private interpretation, and I have given you the proof of that straight from the Bible.

In all honesty your group is starting to sound very fanatical group of extremists.

That's the first nice thing you've said about us yet. God wants us to be on FIRE for Him. Rev 3:15-16

You don't represent our following at all

Well praise God for that! I don't want to represent a following of lukewarm, make it up as you go, false Christians.

until I see something positive come from these ranks my opinion won't change.

You've seen nothing but positive coming from us. We are here to spread the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why are you here?

However I, here and now, accuse you of misconstruing the Lords word for your own misguided gain.

When have we ever done that?

And not only that, you have tried your hardest to slur the words of another member of your own following.

When have we ever done that? If you are referring to yourself, then my question still stands. Liberal make it up as you go so-called "Christians" are not real Christians. Matthew 7:21

Again I point out the references to loving your brother, which you keep attacking me over.

We do love our brothers. We aren't attacking anything. We are merely correcting your "interpretation" of those verses.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

The bible is a text that cannot be taken literally, it must be interpreted and the reader must justify its teachings.

No, those passages must be taken in context. You have proven your ability to copy and paste out-of-context quotes from atheist websites, and little else.

PSA 145:9; JER 13:14

Not a contradiction. See Romans 9:18.

EXO 15:3; ROM 15:33

Not a contradiction. God creates both war and peace, both good and evil. (Is 45:7)

DEU 14:11-18

I'm not seeing anything resembling a contradiction there. You need to explain this one.

PS.92:12; ISA.57:1

Not a contradiction. Both good and bad can happen to the unrighteous.

[Dr Clifford Ross]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

You've said it yourself with your own misguided quotations. It is an interpretation of Gods word. Not a literal account.

In all honesty your group is starting to sound very fanatical group of extremists. You don't represent our following at all, and until I see something positive come from these ranks my opinion won't change.

I don't expect you to agree with me, because thats obviously not going to happen. However I, here and now, accuse you of misconstruing the Lords word for your own misguided gain. And not only that, you have tried your hardest to slur the words of another member of your own following.

Again I point out the references to loving your brother, which you keep attacking me over.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Australian Baptist following

Of course, there is nowhere in the bible that says this. But for that matter, there is nowhere that states "This book must be read and followed word for word".

Yes, there is. A True Christian should know this.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Psalm 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2nd Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2nd Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Pastor Billy-Reuben