[Joe the Atheist]

Re: God is

Sigh you so don't get it. Look back at the concept of God we all agreed on, he is perfect, no greater can be conceived. It is illogical (and impossible) to attempt to conceive of anything greater. You can put it down on paper "I am greater then God!" but you are being illogical and contradicting the concept we all agree on.

I don't agree that God is perfect. I don't agree that God is anything other than a fictional character from a story book.

You never addressed my charge that, if perfection necessarily implies existence, then you are assuming your conclusion in your first premise.

[Justina Thyme]

Re: God is

Forgive me, Jesus and Pastors, but I must ask:

Can anything even exist without being created, regardless of whether or not it is perfect? Can anyone give an empiric example of a thing that exists without being in some way created?

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: God is

Of course I can understand the concept of perfection. However, the only perfect god I can visualize would have created a perfect universe. A perfect baker would bake perfect pies, not lemon meringue pies with no meringue.
The baker is perfect, he baked a pie, the pie exists and is therefore created by a perfect baker.
See what nonsense that is?

Who says you know what the perfect universe is (and i note you obviously didn't read about the fallacy of using the adjective perfect)? Since the God is perfect it follows that our universe is the logical thing for him to create, doesn't it.

Pantheism also easily overcomes your complaint.

And Joe the argument is not circular, we can conceive of it, and what of which we conceive has a predicate of existence.

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: God is

Forgive me, Jesus and Pastors, but I must ask:

Can anything even exist without being created, regardless of whether or not it is perfect? Can anyone give an empiric example of a thing that exists without being in some way created?

That is a good question. Say you take your car to a mechanic, he takes it apart and puts it back together and says, "yep it wont work, just one of them causeless effects i'm afraid, here's the bill". Joe and Kirk will naturally be the ones paying up!

[Underpants Gnome]

Re: God is

Well since all the lurking athiests are posting I suppose I will speak up.

I don't agree that God is perfect. I don't agree that God is anything other than a fictional character from a story book.

You never addressed my charge that, if perfection necessarily implies existence, then you are assuming your conclusion in your first premise.

Yes, I want to know were Unfallible even gets off saying anything but a minority people believe god is perfect? That’s certainly not how the bible describes god and there are whole cultures that aren’t even monotheistic. Were is the proof god is perfect Unfalsifiable? Is not being able to stop iron chariots what you call perfect?

[Captain James T. Kirk]

Re: God is

You never addressed my charge that, if perfection necessarily implies existence, then you are assuming your conclusion in your first premise.

If perfection implies existence, then the perfect baker does exist! Yippee, perfect pies! Yum!
LOL!

Who says you know what the perfect universe is (and i note you obviously didn't read about the fallacy of using the adjective perfect)? Since the God is perfect it follows that our universe is the logical thing for him to create, doesn't it.

Pantheism also easily overcomes your complaint.

And Joe the argument is not circular, we can conceive of it, and what of which we conceive has a predicate of existence.

Who says I know what the perfect universe is? Your entire argument is based on the idea that we can conceive of perfection. The universe isn't perfect as I conceive perfection to be, so it's not perfect. Seeing as a perfect creator wouldn't create an imperfect creation, God, if he exists, is not perfect.
Another flaw in your logic is that it's logical for him to have created the universe. From a personal perspective, it's very nice that the universe exists, but there is no logical reason to have created it, especially an imperfect universe. It's more likely if a god exists who did create, he or she would have done so for emotional reasons and that is another strike against perfection. Unless your definition of perfection includes being ruled by emotion or at least succumbing to it.

The problem with 'perfect items' is they will always be an item and "greater things" as anselm put it, can always be conceived. On the other hand nothing greater then God can be conceived.

I'm assuming this is what you're referring to in reference to the fallacy of using "perfect" as an adjective. The problem here is, and I've already mentioned it, is you're assuming omnipotence and omniscience are "great". They're powerful, but I've already argued that nuclear power isn't necessarily greater than wind power, even though a nuclear reactor is far more powerful than a wind farm.

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: God is

If perfection implies existence, then the perfect baker does exist! Yippee, perfect pies! Yum!
LOL!


Who says I know what the perfect universe is? Your entire argument is based on the idea that we can conceive of perfection. The universe isn't perfect as I conceive perfection to be, so it's not perfect. Seeing as a perfect creator wouldn't create an imperfect creation, God, if he exists, is not perfect.
Another flaw in your logic is that it's logical for him to have created the universe. From a personal perspective, it's very nice that the universe exists, but there is no logical reason to have created it, especially an imperfect universe. It's more likely if a god exists who did create, he or she would have done so for emotional reasons and that is another strike against perfection. Unless your definition of perfection includes being ruled by emotion or at least succumbing to it.


I'm assuming this is what you're referring to in reference to the fallacy of using "perfect" as an adjective. The problem here is, and I've already mentioned it, is you're assuming omnipotence and omniscience are "great". They're powerful, but I've already argued that nuclear power isn't necessarily greater than wind power, even though a nuclear reactor is far more powerful than a wind farm.

Do you even know the meanings of those words? lol. As i've said many times, you are attacking a solid wall this way, Anselm kindly provided us with the answer. Nothing is perfect unless it is God because there can always be greater things conceived. I.e. God whom nothing greater can be conceived.

[Underpants Gnome]

Re: God is

Who says you know what the perfect universe is (and i note you obviously didn't read about the fallacy of using the adjective perfect)? Since the God is perfect it follows that our universe is the logical thing for him to create, doesn't it.

Pantheism also easily overcomes your complaint.

And Joe the argument is not circular, we can conceive of it, and what of which we conceive has a predicate of existence.

We can also conceive of Azathoth Azathoth certainly fulfills all your conditions for the "perfect" creator god. That Azathoth may seem like a blind, idiot is only due to your limited human perception. So why is your’ god right and Azathoth wrong? Fankly by the ludicious logic game you are playing both god and Azathoth exist because we magically think them into existance.

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: God is

We can also conceive of Azathoth Azathoth certainly fulfills all your conditions for the "perfect" creator god. That Azathoth may seem like a blind, idiot is only due to your limited human perception. So why is your’ god right and Azathoth wrong? Fankly by the ludicious logic game you are playing both god and Azathoth exist because we magically think them into existance.

This proves this existence of that which nothing greater can be conceived, God. I am assuming you are trying to interject an unfalsifiable idea of a deity, fair enough, but as Flew points out that is meaningless discussion.

So back to God, yeah, he exists.

[Captain James T. Kirk]

Re: God is

Do you even know the meanings of those words? lol. As i've said many times, you are attacking a solid wall this way, Anselm kindly provided us with the answer. Nothing is perfect unless it is God because there can always be greater things conceived. I.e. God whom nothing greater can be conceived.

I do know the meanings of the words, and I also know the meaning of "definitions", as in "you are providing your own definitions here." What definition of "God" are you using here? What definition of "great" are you using? The God of the bible falls so short of my definition of "great" that he's not even in the race. Ghandi was greater than the biblical God. He wasn't as powerful, but he was greater. Does this make Ghandi a deity?

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: God is

I do know the meanings of the words, and I also know the meaning of "definitions", as in "you are providing your own definitions here." What definition of "God" are you using here? What definition of "great" are you using? The God of the bible falls so short of my definition of "great" that he's not even in the race. Ghandi was greater than the biblical God. He wasn't as powerful, but he was greater. Does this make Ghandi a deity?

Ever read the Bible?

Sam 22:31

As for God, his way is perfect;
the word of the LORD is flawless.
He is a shield
for all who take refuge in him

There is plenty of other scripture saying this too.

[Captain James T. Kirk]

Re: God is

Ever read the Bible?

Sam 22:31

As for God, his way is perfect;
the word of the LORD is flawless.
He is a shield
for all who take refuge in him

There is plenty of other scripture saying this too.

Now you're resorting to scripture? Are you sure you're not a True Fundy(tm)? When you have to use scripture to support any argument other than what the bible has to say about something, you lose that argument.

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: God is

Now you're resorting to scripture? Are you sure you're not a True Fundy™? When you have to use scripture to support any argument other than what the bible has to say about something, you lose that argument.

Didn't you want scripture? One of you did. I just got the lie that none of you knew what perfection is, or that something other then the Christian God could be God - that is unfaslifiably true in a sense, but essentially these Gods would be the same. As perfection doesn't change, and perfection brought about what we see today.

Still, that at least logically drives us all to note that a God exists, we just need to look at the Bible to know WHICH one exists.

[Captain James T. Kirk]

Re: God is

Didn't you want scripture? One of you did. I just got the lie that none of you knew what perfection is, or that something other then the Christian God could be God - that is unfaslifiably true in a sense, but essentially these Gods would be the same. As perfection doesn't change, and perfection brought about what we see today.

Still, that at least logically drives us all to note that a God exists, we just need to look at the Bible to know WHICH one exists.

It drives YOU to note that a God exists. I see no logical reason for one to exist, as you've failed to show that conceived perfection equals reality. Just because you say it's so doesn't make it so.
But let's pretend you're making any sense here and say that your faulty logic shows that a god exists and look at the bible. It says God is perfect. Okay. China also calls itself the People's Republic of China. The Democratic Republic of Congo was named so even when Mobutu ruled it with an iron fist. The bible saying God is perfect doesn't make this so as the rest of the book makes it very clear he is anything but.

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: God is

Why haven't we deleted this thread yet? I haven't seen this much blasphemy since Easters at the convent.