[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

This is getting boring. I provide substantial, clear scriptural references, and you lot keep harping on your views. I think I would get more reasonable discourse from a wall than from you all.

I find it fascinating that I can show clear examples about the difference between salvation and justification, and you simply ignore them and fall back to base attacks and the same mantras you've been touting all along. I do not appreciate your arrogance and rudeness, which is unbefitting of those who claim to be Children of God.

[Didymus Much]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

...What do you think these verses mean?

Oh, just a little bit more of Christianity getting reality backwards.


I mean, many of the world's faith traditions look at women bringing ALL life into the world, and celebrate them for it. But the Abrahamic ones? Oh, no. GOD brings all life. Women (according to the Bible) brought not only death, but all sin. Without the existence of sin in the first place, all of the catastrophes described in the Bible (wars, plagues, the Flood <--- yuge calamity, all of humanity [less seven] in that one, hell of a record, never. been. beaten. since.) needn't have happened. Nor would the world need destroying (as per Revelation). All pointless without women's contribution to the world. Which isn't life, but disease, sin, evil, and death.


But you weren't asking me, were you?

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

The verse cited…says (according to your misinterpretation of it), that a woman must bear children to be saved.

I thought I'd better have a look at that verse. I take it that from the OP you're referring to I Timothy.

I TIMOTHY 2 . KJV . look up
13 Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

To start with God explains the sin of being deceived. Eve lived in a world where there was no death. She did not know what it meant to lie because there was no sin and until very recently there was only one human so there'd have been no-one to lie to. There would be no pre-existing condition, if you like. Satan was therefore able to deceive her and that was a transgression on her part. You'd think it was a transgression on Satan's part but that's why we have The Bible, to explain things that otherwise would be unexpected. If we could work everything out for ourselves there'd be no point having The Bible would there.

So clearly Eve could say “God hath said ‘Ye shall not eat of it neither shall ye touch it lest ye die’” but how could she possibly know what that meant? She had only just been created, there was no sin in the world and nothing had yet died. We know this again somewhat counter-intuitive fact because God has explained it for us so that we will know. Thus it was easy for her to commit the sin of being conned. The consequences were catastrophic, not only for the animal kingdom but also for plants, which sprouted thorns. The animal equivalent would be sprouting fangs, making it difficult for them to live on vegetation or even impossible in some cases so they had to start eating one another. Eve was the transgressor here.

I TIMOTHY 2 . KJV . look up
14b The woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15a Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing..

What do you think this means? That it only applies to Eve? The message was a bit late in that case! Surely it applies to the then present. And what about women, then, who had not had children? It would apply to them too, surely? I'll tell you what I think it means, and you can correct me if I'm wrong.

I think it means Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing. But God did not stop there. Do you know what a conditional clause is? I'll show you one (in blue)

I TIMOTHY 2 . KJV . look up
15a Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing..
15b if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Notice that word if. The class "woman" (singular) can be saved in childbearing. Why would God say that if it was false? But there are conditions - that's what the "if" means: if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Childbearing is necessary but alone is insufficient. I think God means to tell us that Adam was first formed then Eve, and Adam was not deceived but the woman being deceived was in the transgression; notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The conditional clause is referring to activities required from individuals thenceforth, that is to the present day and beyond except for sobriety which is not an activity as such. Keep off the gin, rum, vodka, maybe an odd cocktail is OK and a little wine is of course commanded specifically in preference to water but not a flagon of sherry before breakfast.

What do you think these verses mean?

[Elmer G. White]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

How about these, sweetie:
***many wonderful verses***

That is not true. We are definitely not saved through faith alone:
***more wonderful verses***

And do not forget - in the end, it's not our faith, neither our works, it's purely God's Grace:
***still more wonderful verses***

Especially when you take under account that God can make people believe (Acts 16:14) and not believe 2nd Thessalonians 2:11.

I hope that was helpful.

Dear Sister,

This Unsaved visitor makes me sad. I know that the posts of this visitor only reflect the current state of mind in the world, but it is still heartbreaking. Instead of seeking for knowledge, people only look for confirmation of their preconceptions. This person does that by simply dismissing all arguments (of which the verses you mentioned are among the most powerful ones) that do not fit the bias.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All Scripture.

The verses this person posts are wonderful and glorious yet removed from the context that is the Whole Bible = All Scripture. Afraid of the paradox of the reality of Jesus (that need not be a simple reality as we perceive it) this visitor is probably afraid that seeing the Pauline adherence to "Faith only" together with the Jamesian "Works, too", the Bible would somehow prove to be contradictory.

This is incomprehensible. With all the data available at a finger's reach, it is hard to understand why people would not consider all facets of the Truth™ (=All Scripture). This must be because they no longer know where the Truth™, the facts come from: Authority. Spiritual facts from All Scripture and secular facts from our elected leader.

Furthermore, let us assess 2 Timothy 3:16 in more detail. "...given by inspiration of God...". This means that it comes directly from Jesus through the Holy Spirit. Dismissing parts of All Scripture is thus dismissing some parts of the message that the Holy Spirit brought to mankind. I dare not make a conclusion but I am only asking is this dismissal is enough to implement Matthew 12:31? Let us pray for this person. It is sad sad despite our Love and encouragement this visitor still wants to remain in obscurity.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Basilissa]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Find me at least one verse that says "works are necessary for salvation".

How about these, sweetie:

Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Matthew 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Matthew 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

We are commanded and justified by the works that we do as Christians, but we are saved by faith alone. That last part is stated very clearly in the Bible.

That is not true. We are definitely not saved through faith alone:

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[. . .]
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[. . .]
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[. . .]
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[. . .]
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In saying that works are necessary for salvation in any way is a heretical minimization of Christ's sacrifice for us on the cross.

And do not forget - in the end, it's not our faith, neither our works, it's purely God's Grace:

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Especially when you take under account that God can make people believe (Acts 16:14) and not believe 2nd Thessalonians 2:11.

I hope that was helpful.

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

And faith needs works, according to other verses of the Bible (we have seen them before, didn't we? I mean James 2:14-26 for example)
So if you do good things, but do not believe in Jesus, you are going to Hell. That's salvation through faith and not works.
But in believing, you have to DO what God tells you. God tells you to go and multiply, God tells you that you are going to be saved by childbirth. God also tells you what not to do (e.g. you should not use mixed fabric)

Of course "faith without works is dead". What this verse is saying is that works are an indicator of whether or not someone truly believes. If someone truly believes, then good works will inevitably follow.

NOWHERE does the Bible explicitly state "you will be damned if you do not do good works"

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

And faith needs works, according to other verses of the Bible (we have seen them before, didn't we? I mean James 2:14-26 for example)
So if you do good things, but do not believe in Jesus, you are going to Hell. That's salvation through faith and not works.
But in believing, you have to DO what God tells you. God tells you to go and multiply, God tells you that you are going to be saved by childbirth. God also tells you what not to do (e.g. you should not use mixed fabric)
Works and faith go hand in hand. You should show your faith in your works, otherwise is dead and useless; those are God's words. That is why we need to preach and tell all the people in the world about the good news. It is commanded in the Bible that we do that work.


The blood of Christ is sufficient for salvation of the True Christians, and only the True Christians. And True Christians are the ones that follow all the Bible, 100%, and act accordingly.


Anyway, you will carry on thinking that the Bible is not speaking to you, but to the whole mankind (so if mankind multiplies, you are out of that work) or to a specific woman (so you don't need to have your own children)


Good luck with that.

Find me at least one verse that says "works are necessary for salvation". All you've done is provide verses that can be misinterpreted as saying that. I believe the verses I put forth were clear on the matter.

We are commanded and justified by the works that we do as Christians, but we are saved by faith alone. That last part is stated very clearly in the Bible.

In saying that works are necessary for salvation in any way is a heretical minimization of Christ's sacrifice for us on the cross.

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

The verse cited against asxuality says (according to your misinterpretation of it), that a woman must bear children to be saved. However, those verses clearly state that salvation is through faith and not works.

Or is it your opinion that the blood of Christ is insufficient for salvation?

And faith needs works, according to other verses of the Bible (we have seen them before, didn't we? I mean James 2:14-26 for example)
So if you do good things, but do not believe in Jesus, you are going to Hell. That's salvation through faith and not works.
But in believing, you have to DO what God tells you. God tells you to go and multiply, God tells you that you are going to be saved by childbirth. God also tells you what not to do (e.g. you should not use mixed fabric)
Works and faith go hand in hand. You should show your faith in your works, otherwise is dead and useless; those are God's words. That is why we need to preach and tell all the people in the world about the good news. It is commanded in the Bible that we do that work.


The blood of Christ is sufficient for salvation of the True Christians, and only the True Christians. And True Christians are the ones that follow all the Bible, 100%, and act accordingly.


Anyway, you will carry on thinking that the Bible is not speaking to you, but to the whole mankind (so if mankind multiplies, you are out of that work) or to a specific woman (so you don't need to have your own children)


Good luck with that.

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Dear Child,

Funnily enough, both Paul and James use the same Greek verb when they discuss "justification". It is thus crystal clear that we have to give equal weight to their messages that they have transmitted from Jesus Himself. You still haven't assessed this, the most pivotal evidence of giving Faith and Works equal treatment in you still partly twisted view of Jesus.

First, Romans 3:28
λογιζομεθα γαρ δικαιουσθαι πιστει ανθρωπον χωρις εργων νομου

• Present passive infinitive.

Next, James 2:24
ορατε οτι εξ εργων δικαιουται ανθρωπος και ουκ εκ πιστεως μονον

• Present passive indicative, 3rd person singular.

The root is δικαιοω, and "justified" is a very good translation if you will not fall into semantics to dismiss the message. Let us look at the meaning of this word in this context:
As you can see, this means that being "justified" is the same as "becoming righteous" in Jesus (definitions 1-2). Jesus Himself declares in this manner that a person is righteous (definition 3).

Next. Let us see what being righteous signifies!

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



It means that once you're justified you'll get into Life Eternal to be with God. Jesus Christ! If this does not mean "being Saved", what does? If we look at the Westcott-Hort, we can, once again, see the same root (δικαιοω now in its adjective form δικαιος)!

Matthew 25:46
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον

• Adjective, nominative, masculine plural.

What does this δικαιος mean?
Please, dear person. It is time you read the Bible without the biases you've been indoctrinated into! We are so willing to help you in this task!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

I find it funny that you told me not to get bogged down in semantics, but in this post you used the original text, citing its sentence structure and word forms.

There is no need for works, since we are justified by faith in Jesus's death and resurrection.

Check out these verses:
1 John 1:7
1 John 1:9
Ephesians 2:8

The verse cited against asxuality says (according to your misinterpretation of it), that a woman must bear children to be saved. However, those verses clearly state that salvation is through faith and not works.

Or is it your opinion that the blood of Christ is insufficient for salvation?

[Elmer G. White]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

...or you are simply confused and think "justified by" and "saved by" mean the same thing.

Dear Child,

Funnily enough, both Paul and James use the same Greek verb when they discuss "justification". It is thus crystal clear that we have to give equal weight to their messages that they have transmitted from Jesus Himself. You still haven't assessed this, the most pivotal evidence of giving Faith and Works equal treatment in you still partly twisted view of Jesus.

First, Romans 3:28
λογιζομεθα γαρ δικαιουσθαι πιστει ανθρωπον χωρις εργων νομου

• Present passive infinitive.

Next, James 2:24
ορατε οτι εξ εργων δικαιουται ανθρωπος και ουκ εκ πιστεως μονον

• Present passive indicative, 3rd person singular.

The root is δικαιοω, and "justified" is a very good translation if you will not fall into semantics to dismiss the message. Let us look at the meaning of this word in this context:

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

As you can see, this means that being "justified" is the same as "becoming righteous" in Jesus (definitions 1-2). Jesus Himself declares in this manner that a person is righteous (definition 3).

Next. Let us see what being righteous signifies!

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



It means that once you're justified you'll get into Life Eternal to be with God. Jesus Christ! If this does not mean "being Saved", what does? If we look at the Westcott-Hort, we can, once again, see the same root (δικαιοω now in its adjective form δικαιος)!

Matthew 25:46
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον

• Adjective, nominative, masculine plural.

What does this δικαιος mean?

...approved of or acceptable of God

Please, dear person. It is time you read the Bible without the biases you've been indoctrinated into! We are so willing to help you in this task!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Dear Child,

It is very good that you admit having no valid references. It is also sad, as they would be available.

Don't get ahead of yourself, I was just to lazy to do a google search that night.
Check out Romans 8:28.

1. "Christ's death and resurrection, long after the lives and actions of the Old Testament patriarchs, took away the need for works for salvation."

The New Testament disagrees. had you taken the effort to read even a tiny bit around the verse James 2:23, you would have noticed that James used the story of Abraham and Isaac as an example of how things still stand. Let us see:

James 2:23-24
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You see: "not by faith only"! Similarly, you failed to assess revelation 20:13, where Jesus judges (in the New Testament) everyone by their works. OK. Please tell us, which of the following is your rationalization for this.

• James lies.
• James wrote something else but his words have been twisted and the Bible is not reliable.
• You dismiss these verses because they fail to satisfy your preconceptions.

...or you are simply confused and think "justified by" and "saved by" mean the same thing.

2. Good and Evil

Of course everything is ultimately realized in God's Glory, but the GOOD of God is not what we feel to be "nice" and fluffy. Sometimes God lets things run their own course just because. Some of this means that people (with free will) choose to oppose His plans (Genesis 6:6 is the pivotal verse; of course, God would know that this would happen - there is a reason why He Created Hell (Matthew 25:41) and made it possible for souls to communicate between Heaven and Hell (Luke 16:22-26), of course

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Again, please make a choice:

• Psalms 53:1 and Isaiah are mistaken. We can't trust the Bible.
• The words have been twisted and we cannot trust the Bible.
• You're blinded by your preconceptions and dismiss verses that do not fit your comfort zone.

That said, I see some hope in you. You have almost realized how futile secular logic is when it comes to assessing God's Word. I'll keep you in my prayers.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

I fail to see how we are in disagreement about that last part. You are preaching to the choir in regards to informing me that God's plan often isn't comfortable for us. Indeed, I have counted the moments in my past when I have felt great pain and great joy, and the former far outweigh the latter. I found fault with how you put forth your opinion; you made it sound like God's omniscient and omnipotent planning can be effectively thwarted by a person.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how those verses imply that God hates logic. I wholeheartedly agree that the wisdom of this world is as fleeting as shadows, however I believe that God gave us minds with the capacity for logical thought so that we could understand his word in order to better worship him.

Us.

We don't know what sort of mind God gave Adam because he chose to listen to a different source thus blasting all of humanity with ruin and despair. That ruin is transmitted to everyone at conception. The mind which results is corrupted like my washing machine which had 22,000 volts during a storm and now its programmer thing has a mind of its own. It is not the mind it was made with and after a good dose of Satan neither was Adam's.

There is a difference between the fallen mind and the Christian mind. To the "natural" mind logic and evolution and the germ theory of disease, even single fluid optics, these make sense. They are logical. But logic fails when God steps in.

I CORINTHIANS 2 . KJV . look up
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Ah, but you see, you've made a common mistake in understanding works. Abraham and Isaac lived before Christ. Christ's death and resurrection, long after the lives and actions of the Old Testament patriarchs, took away the need for works for salvation. Remember, up until that point the people of Israel were still called even to make sacrifices and follow the Levitical order for worship in atonement of their sins. Yes, Abraham and Isaac were judged by their works, because they lived in a time before the requirement of works was overturned by Jesus's perfect sacrifice and resurrection.

... Scripture (I forget the reference) states that God works all things for his good, and the implication is that that is regardless of the person that does them. Yet you just claimed that the actions of atheists are always contrary to God's plan. To make the proposition that God's plan could be countered in the slightest is to question his omnipotence and omniscience.

Dear Child,

It is very good that you admit having no valid references. It is also sad, as they would be available.

1. "Christ's death and resurrection, long after the lives and actions of the Old Testament patriarchs, took away the need for works for salvation."

The New Testament disagrees. had you taken the effort to read even a tiny bit around the verse James 2:23, you would have noticed that James used the story of Abraham and Isaac as an example of how things still stand. Let us see:

James 2:23-24
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You see: "not by faith only"! Similarly, you failed to assess revelation 20:13, where Jesus judges (in the New Testament) everyone by their works. OK. Please tell us, which of the following is your rationalization for this.

• James lies.
• James wrote something else but his words have been twisted and the Bible is not reliable.
• You dismiss these verses because they fail to satisfy your preconceptions.

2. Good and Evil

Of course everything is ultimately realized in God's Glory, but the GOOD of God is not what we feel to be "nice" and fluffy. Sometimes God lets things run their own course just because. Some of this means that people (with free will) choose to oppose His plans (Genesis 6:6 is the pivotal verse; of course, God would know that this would happen - there is a reason why He Created Hell (Matthew 25:41) and made it possible for souls to communicate between Heaven and Hell (Luke 16:22-26), of course

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Again, please make a choice:

• Psalms 53:1 and Isaiah are mistaken. We can't trust the Bible.
• The words have been twisted and we cannot trust the Bible.
• You're blinded by your preconceptions and dismiss verses that do not fit your comfort zone.

That said, I see some hope in you. You have almost realized how futile secular logic is when it comes to assessing God's Word. I'll keep you in my prayers.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Sorry dear, but the LORD is quite clear on that. From the very beginning, when the LORD first nurtured the Israelites and brought them under His mantle of protection, He declared that unbelievers and those who defy His Ways are evil and are to be avoided at all costs (even unto death).

The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.
Deuteronomy 17:7

Jesus tells us not to waste time with those who refuse to capitulate to His Will. People like you are worse than swine, not to be trusted lest you take advantage of our good and humble nature.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Matthew 7:6

We are compelled to recognize the sinner and shun him. The sinner is he who refuses to do as God commands (like having many children).

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Romans 16:17

It would not only be foolish of us to give you a chance, but it may be dangerous as it could very well impact our eternal fate. And you respect our beliefs enough to not interfere with our God-given right to judge you, right?

Well it is obvious that I cannot interfere with your want to judge me.

Mrs. Etheldreda, you continue to use insulting language mixed in with flawed reasoning, and I have no desire to continue any discourse with you. If you respond to me further, expect no response.

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

It is so wonderful that you're back! This means that you're still quenching the Word of God in its pure form, the form that we as True Christians™ can provide! Now, on to your assertions:
There is nothing complex about God's Word! It is plain and simple and only through scholastic logic has that been tainted into many false cults, such as Catholicism. Let's consider logic! God's Creation is good (Genesis 1:4; Genesis 1:10; Genesis 1:12), but that does not mean that it would be logically comprehensible to us, especially after the Fall (Genesis 3:6).

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

His ways are not our ways! If the world were logical and rational, atheist science would reign supreme, but we know that it is badly deficient because it disregards the Redeeming Work of Jesus Christ.

Again, I believe you've twisted the meaning of this verse a bit. This verse does not talk about common logic and reasoning, but more so of our plans and designs for the future. It is a reminder that, quite correctly, what God knows is best for us isn't often what we expect. It is through God doing the unexpected that we then use our logic and reasoning to understand Him better, and to grow in our love and admiration of Him.

An example: Miracles. Do you deny them? Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead and passed these gifts on to His Apostles (Luke 9:2). Miracles occur unexpectedly and they bread down the nice chain of cause and effect that the atheist scientists try to unravel. Because only Jesus knows our molecular and Spiritual structure in its Planck distance detail (Psalms 139:2), we can never be able to predict just when and on whom will the next miracle strike. These supernatural interventions directly deny the rationality of the Created World. In fact, as True Christians™ we must always take into consideration the possibility of even the tiniest occurrence being the result of God's Merciful (Jonah 4:2) or wanton (Job 1:12) handiwork. It is impossible to understand a world like this with logic, it is to be understood with Faith and Obedience (Ecclesiastes 12:13). God's Ways are NOT our ways!

Oh I wholeheartedly agree with you about miracles. As a matter of fact, I see miracles as God's way of teaching us that, while me may know and control quite a bit, we're still human and there are thinks that we will probably never know the answers to this side of glory.

Of course it is not based solely on works! No-one would claim that. The wonderful Epistles of Paul that you mentioned are the living proof of that! However, that is no reason to dismiss other parts of the Bible. If you had been able to transcend your preconceptions, you would have considered alternative hypotheses based on the actual Bible. Let us take the story of Abraham and Isaac. Paul takes it as irrefutable proof of Salvation through Faith™:

Romans 4:2-3
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Similarly, James tackles the issue of Abraham and Isaac in His wonderful Epistle:

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

And Jesus Himself will consider the Works of each and every one of us in due course!

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

For the false Christian this is self-contradictory and so he dismisses the part that he likes less. For instance, Mr. Luther, the papist-in-protestant-disguise, tried to remove James and Revelation among others from the Bible (Jesus Christ! He never got to Revelation 22:19, did he?). That won't work. You have to look past these apparent contradictions NOT with logic (here we go again) but with Faith™! Trust God! Salvation comes only through Faith®. Salvation comes through Works®. Logic says this is impossible but God can do Miracles (Revelation 19:6) that are by definition impossible and irrational. The scholastics and their useless followers (just look at Barth, Pannenberg, McGrath etc. etc.) try to say that God only can do things that are "logical". Hence, they deny miracles.

Ah, but you see, you've made a common mistake in understanding works. Abraham and Isaac lived before Christ. Christ's death and resurrection, long after the lives and actions of the Old Testament patriarchs, took away the need for works for salvation. Remember, up until that point the people of Israel were still called even to make sacrifices and follow the Levitical order for worship in atonement of their sins. Yes, Abraham and Isaac were judged by their works, because they lived in a time before the requirement of works was overturned by Jesus's perfect sacrifice and resurrection.

SUMMARY

Works: what to think about them!
1. The nature of a deed within the good-evil axis is determined not by the content of an action but by the person doing the action!

Psalms 53:1
(To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

If you fail to have Faith™, all your actions are evil. If you as an atheist save a child from being eaten alive by vultures, it is evil in the Master Plan of Jesus, it causes consequences that are contrary to the agenda of Jesus. However, Saved persons do only good things (you were very close to this conclusion, points for that!).

Such a statement in my opinion is questioning the omnipotence of God, as well as clear scripture. Scripture (I forget the reference) states that God works all things for his good, and the implication is that that is regardless of the person that does them. Yet you just claimed that the actions of atheists are always contrary to God's plan. To make the proposition that God's plan could be countered in the slightest is to question his omnipotence and omniscience.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Again, this seems contradictory IF you follow secular logic. It's the same with being Saved through childbirth only. With "rational" logic you try to twist it into something that you like, which by definition shows that you are not yet one with Jesus.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

I don't see how I'm really twisting it into something that suits me, I'm just stating the obvious (or at least trying to).