[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

Hi, I don't believe that everybody else is wrong. Of God is all, then everyone's views are included into that. Have you ever heard the stained glass window description of God? Basically God is the white light behind a stained glass window. Different people see God through whatever color belongs to their beliefs, but they are all seeing the same God.

Very poetic comparison. Nevertheless, the problem with is that an important part of how a person sees God, is what this person thinks that God wants them to do. A very brief survey of world religions and their multiple denominations will show you very different practices, such as:

1) Dietary restrictions: eating meat or not, eating specific kinds of meat, etc.
2) Treatment of human body: circumcision, female genital mutilation, tattooing, wearing jewelry, having long hair or shaving it, wearing clothes or not, wearing certain types of clothes only, etc, etc.
3) Mating behaviors, such as monogamy, serial monogamy, polygyny, polyandry, group marriage; also related, whom can you marry and whom you cannot, degree of relationship allowed, minimum age for marriage and its consummation, use of contraception, etc.
4) Attitudes towards killing, such as abortion, capital punishment, participation in wars.

I could make an endless list of such contrasting behaviors. All religious people will tell you that their particular point of view is the correct one and everybody else is wrong. They believe that God in fact allows them to do things which are seen as immoral behavior by other religions, and vice versa. Moreover, if you look at history of religions, attitudes and beliefs change over time, so it's not like beliefs of a certain religious group are set in stone.

If there is only one God who looks benevolently at people of all religions, then how come He allows all these contradictory behaviors?

Or maybe it means that He doesn't care what we believe in and what atrocities we commit in His name? Wouldn't that make Him unworthy of our worship, though?...

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Hi All

God either is or isn't all. If he is all, then that theory is correct. If he isn't all, then maybe you have been mistaken. And I add things to my beliefs, I don't change things every time I find something new.

This is the heresy of modernism, dear, the belief that Truth™ can evolve to incorporate new ideas, new philosophies, and information unknown at the time the Holy Bible was written. Nowhere will you find God identify Himself as whatever an individual imagines Him to be. In the over 900 names and titles of the LORD, you will not find one that suggests His Holy Nature conflicts with Itself to appease the imagination of sinners desperate enough to fantasize about an Invisible Friend, cowardly enough to deny the One True God.

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

Well, the LORD does call us to Righteousness (Romans 10:4), not morality.



Check your Bible. The word "moral" isn't anywhere in its pages.

That means that even when heathens think we are being harsh or immoral, their opinions are irrelevant. It is all foolishness to them anyway, so who cares what they think (1 Corinthians 1:18)?

Thank you. I still struggle with my faith, but seeing your faith makes me want to keep trying to believe in God who actually cares. At least you have an actual body of proof in the form of the Holy Bible, something that Locus doesn't have at all.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Well, the LORD does call us to Righteousness (Romans 10:4), not morality.



Check your Bible. The word "moral" isn't anywhere in its pages.

That means that even when heathens think we are being harsh or immoral, their opinions are irrelevant. It is all foolishness to them anyway, so who cares what they think (1 Corinthians 1:18)?

The word moral might not be in the Bible, but you can't be righteous without being moral (check your definitions)

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Very poetic comparison. Nevertheless, the problem with is that an important part of how a person sees God, is what this person thinks that God wants them to do. A very brief survey of world religions and their multiple denominations will show you very different practices, such as:

1) Dietary restrictions: eating meat or not, eating specific kinds of meat, etc.
2) Treatment of human body: circumcision, female genital mutilation, tattooing, wearing jewelry, having long hair or shaving it, wearing clothes or not, wearing certain types of clothes only, etc, etc.
3) Mating behaviors, such as monogamy, serial monogamy, polygyny, polyandry, group marriage; also related, whom can you marry and whom you cannot, degree of relationship allowed, minimum age for marriage and its consummation, use of contraception, etc.
4) Attitudes towards killing, such as abortion, capital punishment, participation in wars.

I could make an endless list of such contrasting behaviors. All religious people will tell you that their particular point of view is the correct one and everybody else is wrong. They believe that God in fact allows them to do things which are seen as immoral behavior by other religions, and vice versa. Moreover, if you look at history of religions, attitudes and beliefs change over time, so it's not like beliefs of a certain religious group are set in stone.

If there is only one God who looks benevolently at people of all religions, then how come He allows all these contradictory behaviors?

Or maybe it means that He doesn't care what we believe in and what atrocities we commit in His name? Wouldn't that make Him unworthy of our worship, though?...

Not all religious people (or at least people of faith) will tell you that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I understand, I ran into that fairly early on. then with a little more searching and trying to understand religion/spirituality, I started seeing that not everyone felt that way. Many of the differences in religious/spiritual law can be explained by looking at the culture and where the group lived. Take the Jewish and Muslim prohibition against pig meat, raising pigs in a desert environment would have been a tremendous waste of resources. Or take the Hindu prohibition against killing their cows, a cow can produce milk until it dies.
So yes the Bible and other religious texts are part a historical record of that culture. However look how many religions have different variations of the Golden Rule. Look at the 10 Commandments and compare it to the 10 Commandments that the Native Americans have, you'll find that they are very similar.
Humanity has a lot of flaws. Take a commandment like do not kill as an example. That commandment is pretty common across the religious/spiritual beliefs. First you need to decide if killing and allowing to die are basically the same. Then you need to decide which groups actually count as people. The Bible in the historical sense is pretty clear that there are certain groups of people that deserve to be killed. Other religions are quite a bit less clear. The big question there is whose mistake/misinterpretation? The commandment not to kill should actually be pretty straight forward.
Thank you though, those were some pretty good questions

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Thank you. I still struggle with my faith, but seeing your faith makes me want to keep trying to believe in God who actually cares. At least you have an actual body of proof in the form of the Holy Bible, something that Locus doesn't have at all.

You're right, I don't have a book for proof, BUT that doesn't mean that I don't have any sort of basis for my particular faith.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Hi All

...However look how many religions have different variations of the Golden Rule...

Fun thought exercise: how would a masochist and a sadist observe the Golden Rule between themselves?

...Look at the 10 Commandments and compare it to the 10 Commandments that the Native Americans have, you'll find that they are very similar...

Your source for these "10 Native Commandments"? I expect something that predates the arrival of non-natives, or it is meaningless due to cultural contamination (I couldn't find anything that even predates the internet).

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Fun thought exercise: how would a masochist and a sadist observe the Golden Rule between themselves?



Your source for these "10 Native Commandments"? I expect something that predates the arrival of non-natives, or it is meaningless due to cultural contamination (I couldn't find anything that even predates the internet).

That's actually a pretty cool exercise, thanks. First thing t look at would be consent. Then can we agree on a level of sadism and masochism? Are we talking about the light consensual type of sado-masochism or are we talking about the level that could potentially do serious harm or kill someone? Not trying to nitpick, just making sure that we are talking about the same thing. I had to study some of the Hopi and Southwestern tribe mythology to get any understanding of their myths and standards of ethics, but you're right it is hard to work around the cultural contamination. I'm currently trying to get permission to speak with some of the local tribes in my area, but I haven't heard anything yet. I will try to dig out some of my comparative religion textbooks though, it might be interesting to go through some of that with you. Love the insight and the questions by the way. I actually really do appreciate it. Have you seen the some of the philosophy games online. I'll attach the link. You might enjoy going through them, I know I did.

http://www.philosophersmag.com/index.php/games

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Hi All

Then can we agree on a level of sadism and masochism?

Ew! Get a room, you two.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Ew! Get a room, you two.

Did I completely miss the pick up line here?

[Dolores de Barriga]

Re: Hi All

Not all religious people (or at least people of faith) will tell you that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Believing in a certain religion takes as the basic assumption that "we're right, they're wrong." The only religion that allows more leeway is the Baha'i religion, but even they tell you that all roads lead to God, but their way is the best way.

I understand, I ran into that fairly early on. then with a little more searching and trying to understand religion/spirituality, I started seeing that not everyone felt that way.

People may feel like they want, the question is whether what they think is logical. In order for any religion to attract followers, all other religions have to be inferior. When you get out of a religion into the "spirituality" it gets even worse, as people's beliefs very often contradict each other - hence, either one is true and the others are false, or all of them are equally false.

To give an example, it is impossible that all creation stories of all religions/belief systems are true. So, is only one of them true (Landover Baptist would say that the Biblical account would be the true one), or are all of them equally false?

Many of the differences in religious/spiritual law can be explained by looking at the culture and where the group lived. Take the Jewish and Muslim prohibition against pig meat, raising pigs in a desert environment would have been a tremendous waste of resources. Or take the Hindu prohibition against killing their cows, a cow can produce milk until it dies.

I didn't realize that Marvin Harris' ideas have permeated to the general public. Too bad that the critiques of that overly materialistic point of view haven't followed. If you hang on I will review my notes and give you some references on this subject. For now, trust me that these cultural prohibitions aren't as grounded in reasonable explanations as you think they are.

So yes the Bible and other religious texts are part a historical record of that culture. However look how many religions have different variations of the Golden Rule.

I don't know, how many do? (Disregarding cultures which mutually influenced each other, and cultures forcefully influenced by European colonialism).

Look at the 10 Commandments and compare it to the 10 Commandments that the Native Americans have, you'll find that they are very similar.

I'm not aware of the existence of Native American 10 Commandments, but I would assume that any similarities are the effect of European colonialism (most of what today constitutes Native American beliefs is in fact a post-colonial construct).

Humanity has a lot of flaws. Take a commandment like do not kill as an example. That commandment is pretty common across the religious/spiritual beliefs.

And the one most often broken by deeply religious people -- just look at the history of religious wars.

First you need to decide if killing and allowing to die are basically the same. Then you need to decide which groups actually count as people.

And here is where the universalism ends and particularities of each culture begin.

The Bible in the historical sense is pretty clear that there are certain groups of people that deserve to be killed. Other religions are quite a bit less clear. The big question there is whose mistake/misinterpretation? The commandment not to kill should actually be pretty straight forward.

Why?

Think of early hominins.

The only clear thing from our early ancestors' point of view is survival of your immediate family (defined as people who are helpful in raising of your offspring) -- which may sometimes depend on killing other members of your species.

Some basic similarities between human cultures can be explained in terms of survival. More complex ones in terms of culture contact. Really, nothing supernatural about it.

Thank you though, those were some pretty good questions

I hope you will like my answers. Remind me to give you some references on the non-rational basis for cultural prohibitions. I will have more time tomorrow.

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Believing in a certain religion takes as the basic assumption that "we're right, they're wrong." The only religion that allows more leeway is the Baha'i religion, but even they tell you that all roads lead to God, but their way is the best way.

People may feel like they want, the question is whether what they think is logical. In order for any religion to attract followers, all other religions have to be inferior. When you get out of a religion into the "spirituality" it gets even worse, as people's beliefs very often contradict each other - hence, either one is true and the others are false, or all of them are equally false.

To give an example, it is impossible that all creation stories of all religions/belief systems are true. So, is only one of them true (Landover Baptist would say that the Biblical account would be the true one), or are all of them equally false?

I didn't realize that Marvin Harris' ideas have permeated to the general public. Too bad that the critiques of that overly materialistic point of view haven't followed. If you hang on I will review my notes and give you some references on this subject. For now, trust me that these cultural prohibitions aren't as grounded in reasonable explanations as you think they are.

I don't know, how many do? (Disregarding cultures which mutually influenced each other, and cultures forcefully influenced by European colonialism).

I'm not aware of the existence of Native American 10 Commandments, but I would assume that any similarities are the effect of European colonialism (most of what today constitutes Native American beliefs is in fact a post-colonial construct).

And the one most often broken by deeply religious people -- just look at the history of religious wars.

And here is where the universalism ends and particularities of each culture begin.

Why?

Think of early hominins.

The only clear thing from our early ancestors' point of view is survival of your immediate family (defined as people who are helpful in raising of your offspring) -- which may sometimes depend on killing other members of your species.

Some basic similarities between human cultures can be explained in terms of survival. More complex ones in terms of culture contact. Really, nothing supernatural about it.

I hope you will like my answers. Remind me to give you some references on the non-rational basis for cultural prohibitions. I will have more time tomorrow.

Hi. Can you tell me how to quote different lines, so I'm not quoting the whole response? Thank you for your answers, I love them. I may not always agree, but they give me much to consider.


There are 2 other broad category groups that I know of, that don't judge right/wrong of a belief. Spirit Scientists (yea I know eye roll) and Wiccans. The Spirit Science philosophy is basically that a individual person is where s/he need to be for a particular group of life lessons. Wicca takes a similar stand point. Yes I know, and I'd agree, that they both have some otherwise odd beliefs; but I've found them helpful.



I understand you point about the different religious wars. My only question there is were the wars conducted because of religion? or using religion as an excuse? It isn't right either way.


Issuing a do not kill commandment, could have been someone's way to try to achieve some sort of order in a society, and based on that there would not have been any supernatural influence. Truthfully I don't know.


I truly believe that religion/spirituality has to go hand in hand with science. Sort of the IDIC (infinite diversity in infinite combinations) concept from Star Trek.


I seek out people with very diverse beliefs. I have a lot of friends that are atheists as well. I find the difference in viewpoints to be enlightening and quite helpful.


I look forward to your response. I hope your enjoying talking to me as much as I'm enjoying talking to you.

[Zechariah Smyth]

Re: Hi All

blah blah blah witchcraft stuff blah blah blah I have a lot of friends that (sic) are atheists as well.blah blah blah something about lesbianism blah blah blah

Good grief, have you even SEEN a Bible???



(Amos 3:3) "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

By associating with Jesus-haters you are implicitly sanctioning their depravities.



(2 Corinthians 6:14) "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Get those scumbags out of your life NOW before they ruin your afterlife FOREVER!!!



Yours in Christ,

Zech

[LocusSolace]

Re: Hi All

Good grief, have you even SEEN a Bible???



(Amos 3:3) "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

By associating with Jesus-haters you are implicitly sanctioning their depravities.



(2 Corinthians 6:14) "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Get those scumbags out of your life NOW before they ruin your afterlife FOREVER!!!



Yours in Christ,

Zech

Yes I have seen a Bible, we actually own a few. And honestly 'those scumbags' are actually very good people.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Hi All

Yes I have seen a Bible, we actually own a few. And honestly 'those scumbags' are actually very good people.

Dear Solace,

If we construct our own definitions of "good people", then it is quite realistic that we would arrive at the same conclusion as you do. Charity, compassion, tolerance: These are all characteristics that the average person appreciates. Jesus has nothing against them, either. However, His definition of good encompasses not only WHAT is being done but also WHO does it. And, again by definition, a person who is an unbeliever, cannot perform anything that is good. This is dictated by Jesus and by the corrupted nature of the unbeliever.

Psalms 53:4
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

The apparent goodness of these people is stained by the fact that their deeds are targeted at niceties in THIS world, which is irrelevant, as the only thing that matters is Infinity, Eternal Life. And as the lack of faith (John 3:18) is the principal cause of damnation, any deed that does not promote True Faith™ is partially responsible for lost souls.

True ignorance is to construct ethical systems that fail to take into account the fact that good and evil have been pre-determined by God. He decides what is good, and good people do not include unbelievers.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer